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Author Topic: Spirit 'of' God, or, God is spirit.  (Read 7806 times)

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GaryK

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Spirit 'of' God, or, God is spirit.
« on: June 11, 2012, 02:23:22 PM »

Thinking about this last night and the verse stuck out:

Genesis 1:2

New International Version (NIV)

2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

“spirit of god”

If God IS spirit, then should it be phrased “and the spirit god was hovering”?  Doesn’t make a hill of beans difference to me just wondering based on how Ray wrote this below.   

If god is spirit, why would it be phrased 'spirit of god'.  Almost reads like two.


From Ray:

Who and What is GOD?

"There is ONE GOD, the FATHER, out of Whom ALL is..." (I Cor. 8:6).
"For there is ONE God" (I Tim. 2:5).
"You are my witnesses whether there is any god, any Power, any besides ME" (Isa. 44:8 Moffatt Translation).
"The ONE Who is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of HIS will..." (Eph. 1:11).
"Out of Him and through Him and for Him is ALL: to HIM be the glory for the eons! Amen!" (Rom. 11:36).
"...your heavenly Father IS PERFECT" (Mat. 5:48)
"God IS LOVE" I John 4:8
"God IS SPIRIT" (John 4:24).

http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html

"The Holy Spirit of God cannot also be that same God! ANYTHING that is either "from" or "of" something ELSE cannot also "BE" that something else no matter what or who it is! How many Gods are there? Answer: "ONE God."
Of Whom is this ONE God composed? Answer: "the FATHER." NOT, the Father, AND the Son, AND the holy ghost! Just, "the Father!" ONLY, "the Father!!" "ONE God, the FATHER!"

http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Spirit 'of' God, or, God is spirit.
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2012, 04:52:58 PM »

(ABP+)  But theG3588 G1161 earthG1093 wasG1510.7.3 unseenG517 andG2532 unready,G180.2 andG2532 darknessG4655 was uponG1883 theG3588 abyss,G12 andG2532 spiritG4151 of GodG2316 boreG2018 uponG1883 theG3588 water.G5204

The 'of' in italics is not in the Hebrew, but don't take the "Spirit of God" as a 'wrong' translation.  I'm not pretending to be a bible-scholar, just showing a direct Hebrew to English translation of the phrase.  I wouldn't call the others (Spirit of God) 'wrong' but understand them to mean "God's Spirit" rather than a seperate entity or being or substance or whatever.
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

GaryK

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Re: Spirit 'of' God, or, God is spirit.
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2012, 06:30:25 PM »

Thanks Dave.    I knew it was big once I spotted those 27 or so “spirit of god” errors sprinkled around.    One can only imagine the tail-spin Revelation throws into the mix.  Well not really.   I wasn't moved off solid ground but this is what happens when a man has too much time on his hands sporadically and starts thinking.


Revelation 4:5

New International Version (NIV)

5 From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. In front of the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits[a] of God.


Revelation 5:6

New International Version (NIV)

6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits[a] of God sent out into all the earth.


Decent (older) topic here on the spirit(s) of God. 

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=7305.20
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Kat

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Re: Spirit 'of' God, or, God is spirit.
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2012, 06:35:17 PM »


Hi gk,

Quote
If God IS spirit, then should it be phrased “and the spirit god was hovering”?


Gen 1:1  In the beginning God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth.
v. 2  And the earth was without form and empty. And darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God (Elohim) moved on the face of the waters.

Here God is Elohim, this is the plural form, so it includes all of the Deity, not just Jehovah/Christ. God has omnipresence, in every place at the same time. So it could not have been 'a' spirit floating over the surface of the earth looking about? God/Elohim/the Father is Spirit, not a being as such, but Spirit.

The word "moved," the CLV uses "vibrating," Rotherham uses "brooding" and Young's uses "fluttering." What I think this is showing is that God was there, in Spirit, very much aware of the condition of things, but not in a form as a being floating above the water.

mercy, peace and love
Kat



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GaryK

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Re: Spirit 'of' God, or, God is spirit.
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2012, 07:10:25 PM »

Hi Kat.  Makes perfect sense and doesn't combat anything Ray has tweaked on before.   I just remember reading Ray on the 'of' and 'from' thing and it got me to thinking on the matter.   I try not to do that too often cause you see what happens.

This whole thing started with me watching TV last night, "The Book of Eli" and it almost got me to thinking we just simply can't trust Hollywood to get anything right, can we?   ;D

Thanks Kat.   
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Revilonivek

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Re: Spirit 'of' God, or, God is spirit.
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2012, 01:02:13 AM »

gk-

I know i may be off the subject quite a bit but wanted to share my thoughts about your first scripture about spirit of God hovering over....

maybe it just means God is a life force rather than  human created God with white hair, white beard, white clothes, sitting on a white throne or anything human related. He's just not limited to us, but related to everything, creator of life, death of all things, the domino effector of all things. the force that binds all things, catalyst of all things, the ender of all things. Nothing is outside the force.

Everything happens for a reason, think of God as the life force.. like in star wars, may the force be with you.. :) like the bible says, anything will reap what they sow... it's how it works. it's how the force works.. Nothing works outside of that. it requires an action of some kind to go forward. That is why there is no free will but there's a will. God is the force itself. The force determines it, not you.

God is not physical of any kind, no one has seen or heard the Father because he is a FORCE. You can feel him just like you can feel the wind.

hope that helps?

Denise
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GaryK

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Re: Spirit 'of' God, or, God is spirit.
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2012, 12:28:11 PM »

Hi Denise.    I can't recall a time where I've believed God was a Merlin like character, white hair, beard and sitting on an over-sized throne with a warbled cane and a funny looking hat, so no worries there.  But I can appreciate the analogy of the life-force, (especially if I think of Satan as Darth Vader    ;D).    Free-will has always been an issue with me since coming to BT and I've fought it tooth and nail trying to reconcile that with life's casualties and mysteries, but I know you're right, or let me say, I'm relaxing on the fight of it and it feels pretty good.   It's almost like a stage of 'no worries', it is what it is.  But I still have a ways to go.  It'll be when it'll be and I'm beginning to trust his timing rather than my hurried approach to explanations.   

Simply, I was most probably over-thinking the matter where it mentions 'spirit (of)' and attempting a reconciliation back to Ray's lesson.   That's all.   Nothing big or faith shattering.  I wasn't quite to the point of burning my bibles.   ;)   Dave's rendering was just what was needed as far as the verse goes.

Appreciated Denise.

gk
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 12:30:39 PM by gk »
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Spirit 'of' God, or, God is spirit.
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2012, 01:31:26 PM »

Gary...one more thought.  It may be that Hebrew has no 'possessive' form.  As Ray pointed out, there is no way to translate from one language to another without using idiom.  That's why I wouldn't call "spirit of God" a wrong translation. 

For what it's worth, I think of it this way.  God IS and has Spirit in much the same way that I am a human, and have humanity. 
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Revilonivek

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Re: Spirit 'of' God, or, God is spirit.
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2012, 01:33:30 PM »

:) 

To be honest, I don't like the word "God" but people use it anyway to show a physical  Authority or superiority over something. Every time I think of " God" I think of other gods that mankind has created to help them get through their lives.  But in reality- it's a misleading concept even with the christian God.  Carnally, When we use the word God, we immediately think of him of someone physical and superior with a trident, a throne in sky, or whatever. IT's the carnal mind way to understand things that they don't understand. When we pray,we tend to create an image of God in our head- to help us visualize that we are communicating with God, but really it's an misconception. God is everywhere- The force is everywhere. no gender of any kind. when you pray, look around you - see the wind blowing through the trees. That's God. See people doing good, that's God, see animals walking - that's God,  See the sun shine through the trees, That's God. everything that moves. That is the force at work. God is the gravity of things that occur in your life. See the beauty of God that works. You can access him anywhere and in yourself as well. That is why nothing is hidden from the "Force" becuase FOrce is in us, around us, and everywhere. Including the oxygen we breathe. Force is necessary in order for life to work, or we will not be here.. it is just the thing that binds all things. Honor life and everything in it and you will honor God at same time. :)

But really- God is really just a Force that starts all things, ends all things, The Force is pure energy, neutral, and it' makes things work because the force makes it work.

Think of the scientist theory of the Big Bang. It probably happened like that. The force helped bring two things together and it just worked the rest, the domino effector. That's where " reap what you sow" comes in play. It's like whatever you put together, it has to happen. That is the Force itself. God is the force, that is why we don't have free will. Think of  God as Force, and you'll feel alot freer from years of indoctrination of the image we were taught in church growing up.

Just relax the heck away- and take in comfort  and know that the Force is doing it all for the good of mankind and all things that are in the universe and beyond :)

 Have you heard of this saying, if you want to see miracle, be the miracle. Don't wait for it. That is the force in action. The Force is everywhere, even though we don't have free will, but we can do something about it whatever way the force blows us to.


like Yoda says,

May the force be with you :)

Denise
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GaryK

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Re: Spirit 'of' God, or, God is spirit.
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2012, 03:48:36 PM »

:) 

To be honest, I don't like the word "God" but people use it anyway to show a physical  Authority or superiority over something. Every time I think of " God" I think of other gods that mankind has created to help them get through their lives.  But in reality- it's a misleading concept even with the christian God.  Carnally, When we use the word God, we immediately think of him of someone physical and superior with a trident, a throne in sky, or whatever. IT's the carnal mind way to understand things that they don't understand. When we pray,we tend to create an image of God in our head- to help us visualize that we are communicating with God, but really it's an misconception. God is everywhere- The force is everywhere. no gender of any kind. when you pray, look around you - see the wind blowing through the trees. That's God. See people doing good, that's God, see animals walking - that's God,  See the sun shine through the trees, That's God. everything that moves. That is the force at work. God is the gravity of things that occur in your life. See the beauty of God that works. You can access him anywhere and in yourself as well. That is why nothing is hidden from the "Force" becuase FOrce is in us, around us, and everywhere. Including the oxygen we breathe. Force is necessary in order for life to work, or we will not be here.. it is just the thing that binds all things. Honor life and everything in it and you will honor God at same time. :)


But really- God is really just a Force that starts all things, ends all things, The Force is pure energy, neutral, and it' makes things work because the force makes it work.


Think of the scientist theory of the Big Bang. It probably happened like that. The force helped bring two things together and it just worked the rest, the domino effector. That's where " reap what you sow" comes in play. It's like whatever you put together, it has to happen. That is the Force itself. God is the force, that is why we don't have free will. Think of  God as Force, and you'll feel alot freer from years of indoctrination of the image we were taught in church growing up.

Just relax the heck away- and take in comfort  and know that the Force is doing it all for the good of mankind and all things that are in the universe and beyond :)

 Have you heard of this saying, if you want to see miracle, be the miracle. Don't wait for it. That is the force in action. The Force is everywhere, even though we don't have free will, but we can do something about it whatever way the force blows us to.


like Yoda says,

May the force be with you :)

Denise


Thanks Denise.   I'm not certain I agree with your 'domino' theory, in that, if anything happened it wasn't by any 'help' from an outside force as it would be personal intent with purpose. 

"The force"..?   Wouldn't you agree that might be putting an awfully disturbing impersonal approach to a self-exclaimed, exampled, loving and merciful God that has a plan of redemption for all?

Not a matter and no need to address.   Sometimes I can read too much into something when it isn't there at all.   

gk



Quote
Gary...one more thought.  It may be that Hebrew has no 'possessive' form.  As Ray pointed out, there is no way to translate from one language to another without using idiom.  That's why I wouldn't call "spirit of God" a wrong translation. 

For what it's worth, I think of it this way.  God IS and has Spirit in much the same way that I am a human, and have humanity.

Agreed.   Ray spoke in a paper of water in the fish and fish in the water, or, birds in the air and air in the birds.   I understand.   Sometimes it's a good thing to get hung up on the technicality which can surely deepen the search.     Appreciated Dave.

gk
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Revilonivek

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Re: Spirit 'of' God, or, God is spirit.
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2012, 10:46:21 PM »

Thanks Denise.   I'm not certain I agree with your 'domino' theory, in that, if anything happened it wasn't by any 'help' from an outside force as it would be personal intent with purpose. 

"The force"..?   Wouldn't you agree that might be putting an awfully disturbing impersonal approach to a self-exclaimed, exampled, loving and merciful God that has a plan of redemption for all?

Not a matter and no need to address.   Sometimes I can read too much into something when it isn't there at all.   

gk



The force may be a better term but maybe not for you. Really God has many names, you can call him by whatever names and He would know who you are referring to. God is everywhere where Force is needed.  I am simply referring to how the force works and it meets all the charaterisitics that God carries. read the bible and compare the characteristics between force and God. it's pretty much the same.  the name god really ruined it for me, thanks to many mythologies' gods and so on.. it infereres with  my thinking of who God really is. Ray has already pointed out that God is a title.

About the domino effect, I was using a metaphor, not literally. Have you ever tried to set up dominos from start to finish the way you wanted it to? you would know where the first domino would start and where the last domino would end? it is  because you designed it the way you wanted it to.

Same thing. God started the domino effect by creating the world, creating mankind, putting that tree in the garden...that alone pushed down the first domino and  that fallen domino started to  effect the other dominos all the way to the end. The dark ages in the old testament to utopia God wants in the future. Force does that. That is how he foreknew everything before the world began because he designed it. He knew how it would start and how it would end.  The force  is a neutral influence that gives everything its vitality, strength or purpose and animates everything, including the soul. Nothing is without the force's influence. Nothing is outside the force, That is why we do not have free will.

To divulge a bit. Everything you see here. train your eyes to see God, see the force action all around you. That is God that you can see in this present life anyway by following your eyes to it's footsteps it leaves behind. It's like trying to see the wind but you feel it and know it's there without needing to see the actual wind. Same thing, You can't see the force but you can follow it's footsteps. it's the great authority over all things. the force is necessary and without it will be no life.

I know I don't make sense right now, I really believe God is neutral and is trying to get us to become neutral as well. WE are the protons and electrons in this world and that serves a purpose for a time.  All in due time, right?

Denise
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GaryK

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Re: Spirit 'of' God, or, God is spirit.
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2012, 01:01:29 AM »

Thanks Denise.   I'm not certain I agree with your 'domino' theory, in that, if anything happened it wasn't by any 'help' from an outside force as it would be personal intent with purpose. 

"The force"..?   Wouldn't you agree that might be putting an awfully disturbing impersonal approach to a self-exclaimed, exampled, loving and merciful God that has a plan of redemption for all?

Not a matter and no need to address.   Sometimes I can read too much into something when it isn't there at all.   

gk



The force may be a better term but maybe not for you. Really God has many names, you can call him by whatever names and He would know who you are referring to. God is everywhere where Force is needed.  I am simply referring to how the force works and it meets all the charaterisitics that God carries. read the bible and compare the characteristics between force and God. it's pretty much the same.  the name god really ruined it for me, thanks to many mythologies' gods and so on.. it infereres with  my thinking of who God really is. Ray has already pointed out that God is a title.

About the domino effect, I was using a metaphor, not literally. Have you ever tried to set up dominos from start to finish the way you wanted it to? you would know where the first domino would start and where the last domino would end? it is  because you designed it the way you wanted it to.

Same thing. God started the domino effect by creating the world, creating mankind, putting that tree in the garden...that alone pushed down the first domino and  that fallen domino started to  effect the other dominos all the way to the end. The dark ages in the old testament to utopia God wants in the future. Force does that. That is how he foreknew everything before the world began because he designed it. He knew how it would start and how it would end.  The force  is a neutral influence that gives everything its vitality, strength or purpose and animates everything, including the soul. Nothing is without the force's influence. Nothing is outside the force, That is why we do not have free will.

To divulge a bit. Everything you see here. train your eyes to see God, see the force action all around you. That is God that you can see in this present life anyway by following your eyes to it's footsteps it leaves behind. It's like trying to see the wind but you feel it and know it's there without needing to see the actual wind. Same thing, You can't see the force but you can follow it's footsteps. it's the great authority over all things. the force is necessary and without it will be no life.

I know I don't make sense right now, I really believe God is neutral and is trying to get us to become neutral as well. WE are the protons and electrons in this world and that serves a purpose for a time.  All in due time, right?

Denise



Hi Denise.   I'm pretty sure I got your metaphor although God may be a big fan of dominoes, who knows.   ;D

The volley back on the domino theory was simply to suggest

...................hey, you know what?     Doesn't matter.     

For now you have your view and I have mine.     It isn't that I don't understand where you're coming from, it's just a bit too cold and impersonal for me at this point.   My fingertips are grasping the dusty sand beaten ledge of a loooooong deep creviced struggle back to where I can re-trust God.   I don't think I'm ready to understand him as an impersonal 'force'.     Let's leave it be, I'm happy to do that.

gk
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Revilonivek

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Re: Spirit 'of' God, or, God is spirit.
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2012, 03:35:47 AM »

Yeah. Its how I understand so far. Just offering a thought. Force seems to fit Gods characteristics as well. Life cannot function without force. I could name so many similarities.  I will admit I am not there yet but I do come to realize that God is the gravity of life. 

The bible did say knowledge will increase in the last days which is true. We do know alot about science" mathematics, physics, reason, and so on far more than those people in the old testament ever did. Same goes for new testament for hundreds oof ye
Years and more.

You can see that people in old teatament would fear God when there's an earthquake but they don't know that iits a earthquake or why it happens. There's a part I think in the oldtestament that speaks of a volcano spewing but that people didn't know hoe a volcano work but they writr it up to God being angry or showing authority so they show fear and submission.

There are numerous examples of mother nature that people couldn't explain but write it off to God. Now, according to the bible,we know that God works with mother nature to shoe his authority. That's force at work.  Nothing can happen outside of force.

I know I sound like a nut for bringing that up but its where I'm at but it doesn't mean I'm there yet. Its just a glimpse. Maybe the force action that occurs s just his footsteps he leaves behind? Who knows for sure anyway. We will all understand one day.

Ill leave it at that. :)
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Kat

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Re: Spirit 'of' God, or, God is spirit.
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2012, 01:19:26 PM »


I was thinking about these words used for God, 'force,' 'consciousness.' What these word show are, imo, attributes of God. Yes He is a force, yes He does have consciousness, but these by themselves fall far short of the limitlessness of what God is. He is also love, intellect, wisdom, perfection, purity, etc... a few more words that tell us of some of His attributes that help us understand Him better by these descriptions of Him. I came across this comment that expresses one way to look at who God is and found it very interest.

He possesses in Himself, absolutely and independently, the entire reason of His uncaused infinite Being.

There is no real way to express the fullness of the Glory and Divinity of this Eternal God with mere words, they will always be lacking.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

 
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GaryK

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Re: Spirit 'of' God, or, God is spirit.
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2012, 05:49:33 PM »


There is no real way to express the fullness of the Glory and Divinity of this Eternal God with mere words, they will always be lacking.

mercy, peace and love
Kat


Isaiah 55:9

New International Version (NIV)

9 “ As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.”



Just a thought that came to mind to go along with that Kat.

gk 
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 05:55:40 PM by gk »
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olasupo jacobs

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Re: Spirit 'of' God, or, God is spirit.
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2012, 03:12:36 AM »

can the words of this song suffice to express who our father is?

You are beautiful beyond description
Too Marvelous for words
Too Wonderful for comprehension
Like nothing ever seen or heard
Who can grasp your infinite wisdom?
who can fathom the depths of your love?
You are beautiful beyond description
Majesty enthroned above

chorus:
Lord i stand in awe of you
Lord i stand in awe of you
Holy God to whom all praises is due
I stand in awe of you

For you are king of kings, and Lord of lords
You reign in majesty
Omnipotent, Almighty father
Creator of all things 2x

chorus: Lord i stand in awe of you etc



Truly like kat inferred we can never have enough human words to express the enigma called God...grace and peace to all BT forum members- Olasupo Jacobs
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acomplishedartis

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Re: Spirit 'of' God, or, God is spirit.
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2012, 01:56:36 AM »



If God almighty, the creator of all, the wiser all powerfull GOD is so great, He can take any form, any shape at any time, He can take two forms or two shapes if HE wants (a part of him can take a physical form and live in earth for more than 30 years if He well desires it). If GOD IS SPIRIT that means that He is more real than what we can be able to see or perceive (the physical is temporal - the spiritual comes to stay!). If time and space doesn't limit GOD ALMIGHTY that means that there isn't even an small possibility that one small leave can fall where it wasn't spooned to fall.

GOD IS SPIRIT.

But the main thing with this subject is that it's very difficult for us to assimilate the term Spirit...



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

''we just simply can't trust Hollywood to get anything right, can we?   ;D''

Not even if they sometimes tell some truths.
Because the way to present the mesage is always part of the message, am I right?


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