> Email to Ray



Dear Claypot:  I will make a few COMMENT.... to your email:

Subject: Forum Banned

Hello Mr. Smith. I fear now to call you Ray as you may view me as an enemy especially if you've heard about me on the forum at BT. I am Claypot. Please read my writings there if you have any questions about my character.
I have been banned by Marq, a moderator at the forum.
Here is the one that did it I believe.

COMMENT:  Okay, I will comment on your post from the above site only.  The rest of your email that follows is of no value to me (he said/she said, etc.).  First let me say, that in the ten and a half years that bible-truths.com has been operating I have never seen a moderator ban someone that didn't deserve to be banned.

Here then is your post from the forum:

Does Satan represent our carnal mind?
Dear Mark:  Was it "the carnal mind" that presented itself to God in the opening chapters of Job?  Did Jesus tells HIS OWN "CARNAL MIND" to "get behind Me, SATAN?" (Luke 4:8 )?  Did Jesus have a "carnal mind?" A "satan" within Him?  Is God going to chain the "carnal mind" in the abyss for a thousand years (Rev. 20:1-2)?  Is He then going to release  the "carnal mind" for a little season?

I await your reply.

God be with you,

I don’t understand why Ray asks this question.

COMMENT:  I am sure that statement is true, You "DON'T understand."

Ray so perfectly, IMO, teaches in
that:  [D] "If I have told you EARTHLY things [first], and you believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you of HEAVENLY [spiritual] things [afterward]?" (John 3:12). and TRUTH NUMBER 5
Everything from Genesis to Revelation pertains to a higher SPIRITUAL meaning than the physical examples, parables, metaphors, allegories, stories and symbols in which they are written. "Let us make man in Our Image" (Gen. 1:26) are words of SPIRIT: "…Surely I come quickly…" (Rev. 22:20) are words of SPIRIT. God does not look like a six-foot man or a five-foot woman. Jesus comes quickly to us, not to the world.  And so on.

COMMENT:  Nowhere in there did I say that NOTHING spoken of in the Bible which sounds literal IS LITERAL.  Did I?  In Genesis 1:1 did God create a literal earth,

or is the earth spiritual and does not really exist in the physical?  Well?

In Job here where it states that Satan presented ‘himself’ to God, couldn’t that be exactly what Ray teaches, a higher spiritual meaning, a spiritual reality couched in a physical setting.

COMMENT:  NO, and that it why I included it as part of the Scriptures which show that Satan is NOT just our human carnal mind.

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. {Satan: Heb. the adversary} {among: Heb. in the midst of}  7  And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.  8  And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? {considered: Heb. set thy heart on}  9  Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?  10  Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? Job1.6-10

Did the Lord and Satan really talk using human words with a human voice in some physical far away place?

COMMENT:  It really doesn't say, does it?  Did they speak in Archaic English or ancient Hebrew?  It doesn't say, does it?

Does Scripture here literally mean Satan was physically walking to and fro in the earth?
(Notice it says IN the earth?) People are made from the dust of the earth. The carnal mind is in the earth (people).

COMMENT:  Satan is "spirit," so why do you suggest that if he walks, he is "physically walking?"

Anyway was Job perfect in the natural sense? Jesus was the only perfect ‘man’. Was Satan talking about a literal physical hedge?

COMMENT:  Absolutely. The best and wisest men in the East could find no real fault or character flaw with Job.  Only God could.
No, it was not a "physical hedge," but what in the world does that prove?  Where the animals of Job's that were destroyed "spirit animals?"
Were Jobs sons and daughter, "spirit" sons and daughter?  Did Job have a real, physical, flesh and blood "wife," or was she "spirit" also?
You're talking nonsense and foolishness.

I am not at all being disrespectful to Ray. I am asking an honest question here so I can understand the whole of Ray’s writings. Please know I am sincere here.

COMMENT:  Okay, I'll accept that.  I may not believe it, but I will accept it.

Ray asks if it was the carnal mind that presented itself to God.

If Ray is seeing the carnal mind as a physical entity and using Ray’s own interpretation techniques I would say no. This whole encounter is a spiritual one. It is metaphoric as Ray teaches Scripture often is. A metaphor is a figure of speech in which a word or phrase literally denoting one kind of object or idea is used in place of another to suggest a likeness or analogy between them .

COMMENT:  What's the point?

The carnal mind is not a physical reality yet it is an ‘enemy’ of God.

COMMENT:  I think we all know that.

Claypot:  The  carnal  mind [is]  enmity  against God Romans 8.7

God is invisible.

COMMENT:  Yes, we know that.

Now unto the King eternal, immortal,  invisible , the only wise God, [be] honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen. 1Tim1.17 and also see Heb 11.26

The carnal mind is an invisible essence. Satan is a spirit.

COMMENT:  Yes, yes...get on with it.

The beginning of Job that we are talking about here is an exchange between 2 spiritual essences. In this sense I would say an emphatic “Yes” to Rays question, which is “Dear Mark:  Was it "the carnal mind" that presented itself to God in the opening chapters of Job?”

COMMENT:  At last......  So in answer to my question as to whether God was talking to "the carnal mind," rather than to a powerful spirit named "Satan," you say "Yes, it was the 'carnal mind' that presented itself to God..."

Let's try that on for size:

"Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them" Job 1:6). So along with "the sons of God," there came "the CARNAL MIND."  Whose "carnal mind?"  Seriously, "WHOSE carnal mind?"

"And the LORD said unto the CARNAL MIND, Whence comest thou? Then the CARNAL MIND answered the LORD, and said...." (Job 1:7). Just who is this "carnal mind" which is speaking to God?
 "And the LORD said unto the CARNAL MIND, Hast thou considered my servant Job...." (Job 1:8).

"Then the CARNAL MIND answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? (Job 1:9).

"And the LORD said unto the CARNAL MIND, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So the CARNAL MIND went forth from the presence of the LORD" (Job 1:12).
"And the CARNAL MIND answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.  But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.  And the LORD said unto the CARNAL MIND, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life. So went the CARNAL MIND forth from the presence of the LORD, and [the CARNAL MIND] smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown" Job 2:4-7).

That doesn't really work, does it?  Imagine that "the carnal mind" "smote Job with sore boils?  Oh really?  I didn't know the carnal mind could do that.

The carnal mind is often presented to God when ‘carnal’ people try to ‘present’ themselves before God who is Spirit.  And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, as unto babes in Christ. 1Cor 3.1

COMMENT:  Sorry, Claypot, but I Cor. 3:1 does not substantiate your statement.  So, "the carnal mind IS OFTEN  presented to God as a "people."  Oh really?  Where?  Care to try again?

I will leave it here and, again, please know this is a question from my heart not meant to undermine anything except confusion. Ray is a man and from what I have read from his own hand, is a man who likes a sincere question put forth to him.

COMMENT:  I believe the "confusion" is on your part, Claypot, not mine.  I may even be wrong on certain things, but I am not "confused."  And I believe my teaching on this matter is correct.  At least Mark never answered me back.


PS: I did not reply to Rays other questions but left them in the context. The principal is the same regarding these questions also and I have already and will again respond to them if Ray or anyone else is interested.

COMMENT:  You "left them in the context?"  What "context," pray tell is that?  And I assure you that "the principal is NOT the same regarding these questions" meaning that whereever the word "Satan" is used in Scripture it ALWAYS means "the carnal mind"--according to you.

Let's try this one more time and see if your argument really works:

"Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.   Then the devil leaveth Him...." (Matt. 4:10-11).

COMMENT:  "Are you sincerely questioning and/or asking me or anyone else to believe that what Jesus meant (in the "spirit") was: "Get you hence, MY CARNAL MIND: for it is written, THE CARNAL MIND shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only shall THE CARNAL MIND serve?  Then THE CARNAL MIND leaves Him...."

One more GIANT point.   If Jesus was referring to HIS OWN CARNAL MIND when He spoke to Satan, then we have Scriptural PROOF that Jesus had a carnal mind.

That then would mean that  "Because JESUS CHRIST is enmity [hatred] against God, for He is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can [He] be" (Rom. 8:7).

I don't think you want to go there, Claypot, do you?

God be with you,


Thanks again.



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