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[levycarneiro]

Interesting...

While reading the article at [1] it reminded of Ray's video "From where did God's Knowledge & Wisdom come?", specially the part below about why this commentator thinks we have a short lifespan. This might be the one of the reasons why God chose - in wisdom - we should not have 700 or 900-years old people anymore.

"The Human Lifespan: Not a Limit but an Optimization

My belief is that the human lifespan is less the result of some hard limit due to cellular degeneration or the like, and more an optimization that balances physical and cultural evolution on the one hand, and the time needed to gestate and develop physical and intellectual complexity on the other.

• While a bacteria-like generational turnover would allow us to evolve about a million times faster (no exaggeration), 20 minutes is two short a time for the development of anything much more complicated than a single-celled organism, and certainly two short a time for the development of something as complex as a human fetus.  It's not a coincidence that humans, dolphins and elephants, three of the most intelligent animals, are also three of the longest gestating animals. We need even more time after birth for intellectual development, socialization, and cultural transfer, all fundamental to human civilization.
• On the other hand, if humans lived as long as the Sequoia Redwood, with an average age say of 1000 years, we'd have physically evolved ten times slower, so perhaps would still be living in trees.  Where do you think we'd be culturally?  Some would argue that the longer life would allow individuals to be smarter and more mature. I would argue that individuals become increasing set in their ways and in their thinking with time, and thus the greatest factor in cultural change is actually generational turnover, much as it is for physical evolution.  Just look around and you can see that shifts in attitudes about race, gender and sexual orientation go with generational shifts.  Where would we be with ten times slower cultural change? We'd still be savages living in caves, living under the oppressive power of 700-year old elders threatened by any new ideas.

"

[1] http://www.quora.com/Life/Why-do-living-things-die

[indianabob]

Hello Levycarneiro,
I'm one of those old fossils, age 77, but I am definitely not threatened by NEW ideas.
I like to think that our ancestors were just as adventurous as young folks in their teens and twenties.
Plus our progenitors, had original revealed knowledge and intellect and physical attributes that would put to shame those of us who are the result of centuries of deterioration and genetic diseases.
Contrary to popular scientific belief, our ancestors who lived in caves, if that be true, (I'm confident that they had ample building materials) had many advantages that we today do not enjoy. One of those advantages would have been insatiable curiosity and the physical/mental ability to take advantage of it. We on the other hand are the result of natural entropy due to disobedience to God's perfect laws.

Hoping to hear more from you in Brazil.

Indiana Bob USA

[Kat]

Hi levycarneiro,

It does make you wonder why Adams generation and those generations that proceeded Adam had such a longlife span. What has occurred to me is, well if you think about it, God was starting a whole new race with Adam and Eve. Maybe God allowed these first generations more time to populate, I mean a woman that lived to be 800 yrs or so would surely have many more child bearing yrs than women of lesser lifespans. So after a few centuries you could see that the population would be large enough and so the lifespan could be reduced.

Another idea is that Adam walked with God in the garden, maybe for yrs. I would think that God would have explained many things to Adam, as he was the beginning of a more sophisticated race of humans. You can see in a history timeline that inventions started to be noted after the time of Adam in history. I want to think that Adam was taught all these things by God and he passed it on to his children/generation. It would have explained a lot of how they had such knowledge to design and build the ancient wonders that have been found, instead of the ridiculous idea that aliens bought the knowledge here.

Most judge people of Adam's time as being evolution backwards from where we are now, and that would indicate they were barbaric and probably cave dwellers. When I think they may have been highly sophisticated and could have been taught how to use natural elements to their advantage. I think the Scriptures show there was ancient knowledge of astronomy, earth science, internal body functions, construction and mining metals. But it's interesting that most of that knowledge seems to have been lost over time, down through the age, until now when nobody believes it at all.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[santgem]

Can not relate. Me below fifty's...LOL! 

would rather hear from Senior Citizen. .... Again....Joke! joke! joke!

[Joel]

I can see that Genesis 11 holds clues that can explain a shorter life span after the Lord confused the builders of the tower in the land of Shinar ( Babel ).
Inbreeding could be a factor, without going into the pros and cons of such a practice.

Joel

[indianabob]

Interesting thoughts Joel,

It could also be that God did it arbitrarily. He does have a plan and once God started over with Abram it could be that the population of the earth was growing at the pace intended and that a shorter life span was enough of a challenge for the average human to have to endure before "rest and resurrection".

From a physical standpoint the longevity limiting radiation penetrating the atmosphere from the sun could have been altered by a change in the Van Allen belt's effectiveness.
The idea that God doesn't change should not be construed to teach that God cannot change conditions of our environment to control our life span.

Thanks for your ideas, Indianabob

[Gina]

Been reading this for the past two days.  This is great stuff and has started a flood of thoughts in me. 

Disclaimer:    Pardon me while I think out loud.  I tend to do this a lot.  But no one's required to respond or even read what I'm about to say.  I always pray before I post and while I'm posting that I don't throw anyone off course with the things I say.

Arbitrarily (adverb)   -  Princeton's WordNet
randomly, indiscriminately, haphazardly, willy-nilly, arbitrarily, at random, every which way, in a random manner
"the houses were randomly scattered"; "bullets were fired into the crowd at random"

God only operates all after the counsel (or law, as Ray said) of His Own will.  (Eph 1:11) 

He definitely didn't do things "arbitrarily," or willy-nilly.  That's an idea straight out of the theory of evolution.  But I know what you mean, Bob.

So God's counsel/wisdom dictates that He do things AND that He do them in a specific manner/process/order and on a specific timeline.

To everything there is a season.  Ecc 3:1

Okay here are my personal thoughts on this thread, based on what I've read and believe:

There's a huge gap of "silence" between the times of the cavemen and the first Adam. 

And there's a huge gap of "silence" between the end of the OT and the beginning of the NT.  It's like Jesus just appeared on the scene much like the sun appears in the morning after a long, dark night.

And just like there's a HUGE gap between the first Adam and the Second Adam -- spiritually speaking.  We are eons apart as far as spiritual wisdom is concerned.  You can't compare the two.

There's no evolution, anywhere, not in "cavemen" evolving into the first Adam, or in the First Adam evolving into the Second Adam.  I don't see it happening that way.  It's out with the old and in with the new.  We are being regenerated, completely reworked.  Not simply evolving.

I believe that whoever was before the First Adam is symbolical of who we are before Christ shines out of the darkness and straight into our hearts and minds. 

As far as the (cave)man--yeah, he got around alright.  I imagine, like our old man, he probably thought he knew a lot too, because after all, he could hunt and kill with tools and whatnot and he was able to eat and survive for a time but not for long. 

But whatever tools he was using are becoming increasingly useless to us now as our knowledge grows.  Just like our old man absolutely cannot be weaved, by the process of "evolution," into our new life in Christ -- out with the old, in with the new. 

There's no place for any of what we used to be or use.   

Rev. 20:11  And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it [God sits on the throne of our hearts], from whose face the earth and the heaven [of our own mind] fled away; and there was found no place for them.

It'd be like putting an new patch on an old garment; new wine into old wine skins.

The physical (in this case -- the "cavemen" and then the first "Adam"), speaks to something spiritual:  the "old" caveman and our new Man. 

Old man has to go - every bit of it, otherwise, when our spirit's put into glorious Spiritual bodies, our spiritual body would ultimately be destroyed.

As far as our life spans being shortened -- why  did God purpose that Christ only be alive for 33-1/2 years on this earth?  That's half the life span of what Moses said a human lives on average.  Does it matter?  I don't know.  Just a thought.

[indianabob]

Thanks for the correction Gina,
I suppose I could have selected a better word.
I was thinking "without arbitration", God using His own counsel, not needing additional data.

God keeps His own counsel and does not submit His decisions to our approval.

Thanks for seeking a better word.

Bob

[cjwood]

amen gina.

claudia

[Joel]

I have thought on the subject of life spans of the human race off and on for many years now.
Some questions came to mind such as; what has shortened mans years more than anything? And sin has to rate right there at the top more than anything else.
In the books of kings we can read how each king recorded, served or didn't serve God and country and what God thought about them.
In most cases they were king for more years if they pleased God, and less if they didn't. Some being king for a year or less.
Another problem that arises concerning years of life is the 70 and 80 yrs. Question.
I have heard the verse in Psalms 90 quoted many times, where it is said in verse 10; The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.
Granted a lot of people do die around 70 or 80, but what about those that live to 90, 95, 100, 110, and yes even as old as 120yrs.
That is a problem if I read Psalms 90 as it is often times explained.  I got what I believe is the best explanation of this Chapter in Psalms years ago while reading through a 1980 edition called "The Amplified Bible", and the footnote at the bottom of the page says this;
This Psalm is credited to Moses, who is interceding with God to remove the curse which made it necessary for every Israelite over twenty years of age ( when they rebelled against God at Kadesh-barnea) to die before reaching the Promised Land (Num. 14:26-35).
Moses says most of them are dying at seventy years. This number has often been mistaken as a set span of life for all mankind. It was not intended to refer to any one except those Israelites under the curse during that particular forty years.
Seventy years never has been the average span of life for humanity. When Jacob, the father of the twelve tribes had reached 130 years (Gen. 47:9), he complained that he had not attained to the years of his immediate ancestors.
In fact, Moses himself lived to be 120, Aaron 123, Miriam several years older, and Joshua 110; while in the Millennium a person dying at 100 will still be a child (Isa. 65:20).

This has been a comfort to me seeing that I am not as young as I once was myself.

Joel

[Gina]

I have an Amplified, too, and never saw that before.  Are you saying the cumulative effects of man's sin down through the ages are what is causing mankind to die earlier than 120?  Or the sin in the individual life of each believer and non-believer?  Keep in mind that sin isn't what passed from man to man; it's death that passes from one man to the next.  Are we being judged collectively as sinners, or individually?  I'm pretty sure it's individually: Romans 14:12 So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

Still, 70-80 years (on average) isn't too far a cry from 120 years. 
 
Herbert Armstrong http://www.cogwriter.com/news/church-history/herbert-w-armstrong-died-23-years-ago/ was sinning up and down and all around--I'd even go so far as to say he was downright evil.  And look at what age he died -- 93 and a half! 

How come he lived as long as Ray's mother who was a very kindhearted woman?

Mao Zedong lived to 82.  Pretty evil guy.

Saddam Hussein could have possibly lived much longer than his 69 years, we won't know since he was killed.  But 69's not that short of a lifespan when you take into account all his evils.

If sin were the determining factor in a person's life expectancy then I think Saul (Apostle Paul) as murderous as he was ("chief" of all sinners) should have died at a very young age.

I don't believe that sin has any bearing on when a person dies.  I believe it's all decided by God:

Job 14:5  Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with you, you have appointed his bounds that he cannot pass;

And how about those who lived before Adam -- they had much shorter life spans; and not only that but they lived before the law was given; and as we've been told, where there is no law there is no transgression of the law (Rom 4:15).  So in effect, they, like the animals, didn't break any laws because there were no laws put in place to break; and therefore, they should have lived on average a long, long, long, long time.

I hope I don't sound like I'm nitpicking.

[doug]

I have an Amplified, too, and never saw that before.  Are you saying the cumulative effects of man's sin down through the ages are what is causing mankind to die earlier than 120?  Or the sin in the individual life of each believer and non-believer?  Keep in mind that sin isn't what passed from man to man; it's death that passes from one man to the next.  Are we being judged collectively as sinners, or individually?  I'm pretty sure it's individually: Romans 14:12 So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

Still, 70-80 years (on average) isn't too far a cry from 120 years. 
 
Herbert Armstrong http://www.cogwriter.com/news/church-history/herbert-w-armstrong-died-23-years-ago/ was sinning up and down and all around--I'd even go so far as to say he was downright evil.  And look at what age he died -- 93 and a half! 

How come he lived as long as Ray's mother who was a very kindhearted woman?

Mao Zedong lived to 82.  Pretty evil guy.

Saddam Hussein could have possibly lived much longer than his 69 years, we won't know since he was killed.  But 69's not that short of a lifespan when you take into account all his evils.

If sin were the determining factor in a person's life expectancy then I think Saul (Apostle Paul) as murderous as he was ("chief" of all sinners) should have died at a very young age.

I don't believe that sin has any bearing on when a person dies.  I believe it's all decided by God:

Job 14:5  Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with you, you have appointed his bounds that he cannot pass;

And how about those who lived before Adam -- they had much shorter life spans; and not only that but they lived before the law was given; and as we've been told, where there is no law there is no transgression of the law (Rom 4:15).  So in effect, they, like the animals, didn't break any laws because there were no laws put in place to break; and therefore, they should have lived on average a long, long, long, long time.

I hope I don't sound like I'm nitpicking.

No Gina!! ----- You aren't nitpicking!!! LOL      I was fascinated by what Joel found in his Amplified bible for Psalm 90 and your contribution.  Very interesting discussion!   I had always thought that Psalm 90 inferred that God had "pegged" the longevity of mankind.... for all people... for all places.... for all time.  Maybe that wasn't the case?

[doug]

Plus our progenitors, had original revealed knowledge and intellect and physical attributes that would put to shame those of us who are the result of centuries of deterioration and genetic diseases.

Hi Bob,

Your's is a good assumption.  I tend to think that this societies present knowledge is the accumulative effect of centuries of preserved recorded knowledge (but of course not God's Wisdom revealed by the Holy Spirit being accumulative), and that is why imo we are as advanced to the point we are today.  You wipe out most of the recorded scientific knowledge (natural disasters, war etc.) and we would be back to "square one"!  I, like you, believe early man was far more intelligent than we are today as evidenced by the many ancient unexplainable structures still standing.  Scientists are baffled as to the how and why.

[Gina]

I don't know about that, Doug.    

Was Jesus impressed with Job's knowledge? (Job was a Pharoah who built pyramids.)
Anything built with a foundation that expansive would be pretty hard to topple over -- pyramids aren't exactly top-heavy.  www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080328104302.htm

Was Jesus impressed with those who built those stone temples?

ha, ha, You guys remind me of this verse:  Mark 13:1 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here! 2And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Our ancestors (before Adam) didn't live past 20, 30, 40 years on average.  They couldn't have been that intelligent.

What about the Redwood trees?  They were made by God, have been around thousands of years, and are still alive.  http://listverse.com/2011/07/30/10-magnificent-living-trees/ Those pyramids and other structures have no life in them at all).

Mat. 6:27  Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?  28 And why take you thought for clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: 29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

Jesus basically said Solomon's glory paled in comparison to the lilies of the field.  HA! Wow!  What a compliment! (And Solomon wasn't stupid!) 

And Jesus was basically saying that all the cumulative/collective knowledge we may have acquired down through the ages will never be enough to add one cubit to our stature (or life).

Who can add one cubit to his stature by taking thought?  Jesus didn't think they were very smart.

Still, this is a fascinating discussion.  Thanks for allowing me to post my thoughts.

[Kat]

There are many ideas out there to try to explain how God brought about the reduction of the lifespan from Adam's generation: the diets of the time; a change in the biochemical nature of humans, speeding up programmed cell death (apoptosis); the flood caused a 'genetic bottleneck' which limited the gene pool; harsher environment after the flood; etc. Whatever the cause it seems clear to me that God had pre-determined for this and brought it about according to His time table exactly as He wanted it to be.


http://creationwiki.org/File:Life_Spans_Before_and_After_Flood.PNG

It seems evident to me that God has also prevented the accumulation of worldly knowledge and it's spread to a great extent over the centuries. One way was limiting mankind's interaction since Babel, spreading us out over the earth. Up until resent yrs there was not a quick or easy ways to communicate across the miles, to share knowledge. Then think of all the wars that brought destruction of invaluable sources of knowledge, one was the Library of Alexandria and all its contents (vase collection of scrolls said to contain much known knowledge around the world), it burned sometime around the first or second century AD. You can only imagine what was lost during the Dark Ages and the cultural and economic deterioration that occurred at that time. All these things may have hindered the continuation of some knowledge being passed on, but I do not believe that it would have been the reasons for the dramatic shortened lifespan.

But we can see that at this time knowledge is been permitted to increase at an expedient rate, obviously also pre-determined to be so. Instant communication in most cases, doesn't everybody have a cell phone   Travel carries us to great distances in relative short time periods... what would peopel from the pass think of jet planes or fast cars for that matter. The biggest means may be the internet though, it is a tremendous means for most anybody to research, exchange and spread information/knowledge and it most certainly came about exactly when and how it did by God's will.

Dan 12:4  "But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[musicman]

I'm pretty sure that most of us agree that there were societies of men (and women) alive prior to Adam.  Furthur, most should realize that these people did not live hundreds of years (Maybe 30 or 40 would be closer).  And of course the seeds of Adam mixed with them, shortening the lives of their children.  It seems that the last of the long livers were destroyed during the locolized flood. 

[Gina]

Whoa, Musicman. 

Gen. 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bore children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Archeologists found remains of "men of old" (what we call cavemen?) and they were huge -- like, 8-9 feet tall.  And you said that they lived no more than 40 years and that seems to fit perfectly with what you said about them mixing with Adam's seed.    It's a known fact that the larger a person is the shorter their life will be ... on average. 

I'll have to give it more study though, but very cool.  Thank you.

[musicman]

No Gina, that was Shaq that they found.  They couldn't find him on the basketball court last year (at least around the hoop because he was huffing it down the court while the game went on).  Anyway, the Archeologists decided that he should be doing pregame commentary for NBA games now and so turned over his fossils.

[Gina]

Think we could stay on topic?

[indianabob]

Gina,
Is the Bible correct to say that only eight persons survived the "flood"?
Does this account for the remaining Giants if any?
Or were they protected somewhere else and came out of hiding to fight David?

Bob