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[arion]

The thing is that Ray did not finish his study on this God enigma. What we need to do is get into your Bibles people, if you have the Spirit indwelling, why can't you search the Scriptures for answers?

And that is the danger of posting an unfinished paper for all to peruse.  It's going to cause a lot of questions that are not going to be answered because only Ray was allowed to teach here and now he's gone.   The thing is as much as I valued Ray, he didn't teach me anything.  There is no way any of us can understand spiritual truth unless God opens our ears.  And indeed John tells us that we have no need for men to teach us;

1Jn 2:27  But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you.....

I don't know, I guess I'm just wired a little differently but I don't get bent out of shape with myriads of questions and trying to figure everything out.  God brings each of us along at our own speed and in his timing for us.  There are some of the papers I read the first few times and didn't understand much at all and then the next time I read it truth just jumps off the page as the holy spirit gives illumination.  When/if it's God's time for us to understand these things then we will.  In the meantime just keep on keeping on.

[Craig]

Everyone step back and take a breath.  Dennis and Kat have both alluded to the fact this was a work in progress that Ray never completed.  Who knows, he may have found he could never complete it because of the questions that it raised.

Now then, I don't necessarily agree with it all but that would take more study and prayer before stating that unequivocally. But it does give us a lot to study and to search out for those so inclined; I do believe the fact of Jehovah as the name leaves little doubt.

Bottom line is don't let this article become a stumbling block to you, nor make it idol of your heart. 

Craig

[Rene]

The essay that was posted was not the "Solving The Enigma of God" paper.  Ray stated:

"I am researching a paper on "Solving the Enigma of God." But as it is somewhere in the future, I decided to cover some of the shorter enigmas that will prepare us for a deeper understanding of just Who our God really is. So this paper is one of those related Biblical Enigmas." 

Perhaps this paper that was posted by Dennis should have had a different title so as not to be confused with the actual paper Ray was hoping to present.

Personally, I got a lot out of this paper and feel happy it was shared with us.

René
 

[mharrell08]

I didn't get the impression that Ray was teaching the Father and Jesus were one and the same being. What the paper is basically saying is that Jesus was given the Father's name, Jehovah was transliterated to the name Jesus. Children take their Father's name even to this day and we see where this custom came from.


Hope this helps,

Marques

[John from Kentucky]

Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.  Deut 6:4

That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me.  I am Jehovah, and there is no other.  Isa 45:6

[believerchrist100]

Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.  Deut 6:4

That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me.  I am Jehovah, and there is no other.  Isa 45:6

Taken from the 2007 Nashville Conference:

Even though we give Jesus the designation Jehovah/Elohim, it still includes the Father. Why? Because there is only ONE Elohim! He is the Jehovah, one God - there is the Father, one God and together they are the one God. You just have to believe the scriptures. 

John 10:30  I and My Father are one.

One what? One God and it’s understood, We are one... one God. We two, are one. Whenever two are of the same mind and spirit, they are considered one.
 
Now we only have one analogy of that in the scripture, and it’s of a husband and wife. Isn’t it interesting when He says that they are joined together. Because when you are joined together, it’s like you stick a plug in the wall. The plug that you stick in is the male and the wall plug is called the female. So it’s when a man and woman join there bodies. They are literally inside of each others body, they are one, see, literally they are one. That is the most intimate relationship there is, on the human plain, sexual intercourse with a man and a woman, you literally become one body. Because it signifies being one in Spirit. But Paul says he speaks of this concerning Christ and the church in Ephesians. He says this is a great mystery.

Eph 5:28  So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself.
v. 29  For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church.

See the connection.

Eph 5:30  For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones.
v. 31  "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."
v. 32  This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

So what is it about Jesus and His Father, that make them one? I mean they don’t have a sexual union, they are both masculine. How do they be, one? There is one other all encompassing factor….. they are one Spirit! 

You could get a superficial feeling of this, when you have a group of men in the army, let’s say the navy seals or somebody. They are so precisely trained to do one job together, that 6 of them function as one, see. They are multiple individuals, but function as one. We call it, I think it’s Latin, Esprit de corps….. the spirit of the corps, the group. That’s what Jesus Christ and God His Father have, they have a lot of Esprit de corps. They are one Spirit, it’s the same spirit and it’s the same spirit of perfection wisdom and knowledge, love and power. Same Spirit! How could they both have that and not be God?  But there is only one Spirit. 

Wherever God gives His spirit in this room, it’s all the same spirit. Those of us who have that spirit, have a certain Esprit de corps with one another. Now we don’t do it as well, I realize that and some of us are virtually strangers. But if we can talk to each other for an hour or so and know that we have that bond. You would trust me and I would trust you anywhere. Why? Because you have the spirit of God. 

John,

You are correct there is only one God, however the Father and Jesus are not one and the same being. They are two seperate beings who are one in the same sense that a husband and wife are two separate beings who make up one flesh. Jesus and the Father share the same spirit and mind, but they are not one and the same being. I believe also that the latest paper does not teach that Jesus and his Father are one and the same person, but Jesus was given the name Jehovah by his father whose name is also Jehovah which is transliterated to Jesus as Marques says. I apologize if I misunderstood the points you've been trying to make.

Patrick

[onelovedread]

I would have to agree with Marques, because  - Colossians 1: 15 "...Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature,..." suggests that Jesus was born. And we know that the Father was not.

[Dennis Vogel]

I didn't get the impression that Ray was teaching the Father and Jesus were one and the same being. What the paper is basically saying is that Jesus was given the Father's name, Jehovah was transliterated to the name Jesus. Children take their Father's name even to this day and we see where this custom came from.


Hope this helps,

Marques

Yes it does help Marques.

All this foolishness makes me wish I never posted the article. I have other things Ray left on his PC that will never see the light of day.

[Revilonivek]

Maybe the Father/Son analogy can get confusing when it comes to understanding the difference between The Father and Son.

Scriptures teach this:

John 1:14
King James Version (KJV)
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

So technically, God the Father became flesh, representing as a son of the father?

Galatians 4:4-5
King James Version (KJV)
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Philippians 2:6-10
King James Version (KJV)
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Hebrews 2:14-18  14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

John 14:8 -12

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.


So basically  maybe... it just means the Father emptied himself by humbling himself, stripping of all reputation and all that represents the Father God but instead, as a human and as the son of God to help others see and follow.  the Son is really the Father come into the flesh? and the God in flesh represent the son, while God the father is God without form? basically, The father sacrificed himself for the world by becoming human? Maybe?

Denise

[Marky Mark]

In all of Scripture I do not believe that our Lord Jesus Christ has ever mentioned that he was actually the Father and not the Son. Now for sure Jesus has said that He and the Father are One and thought it not robbery to be equal with God but this is accomplished by the Fathers Holy Spirit indwelling in Jesus,the Fathers Words are of the Father,that's the words that Jesus speaks of,in Oneness of both Father and Son.

Joh 10:30  I and my Father are one.   [by a certain abundance of like-minded-ness and intensity]

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me,

But the reason that Jesus and the Father are One is because they have a oneness of Spirit,the Holy Spirit. It is in that unity[oneness] of the Holy Spirit that make up their being One,not the false belief that they are the same exact Supreme deity. There is no witness saying that the Father is the Son and that the Son is the Father,to say that is adding to the Word of God and the outcome to that would be...

Pro 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
 
Rev 22:18  For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19  And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Don't you know that we also are to be one [united], as the Father and Son are One,in the glory of His Holy Spirit,in that holy city and not in the deity of being the Supreme Being of which only God the Father can make claim to. We are to be converted rather into the oneness of the Fathers Spirit, just as Jesus is of One Spirit,in His Father.

Joh 17:21  May they all be one! Even as you, Father, are in me and I am in you, so let them be in us, so that all men may come to have faith that you sent me.
Joh 17:22  And the glory which you have given to me I have given to them, so that they may be one even as we are one;

Jesus has the same name of His Father buy virtue of having the same exact knowledge,authority and character of his Father whom the Father gave,by His Word, that they[Father and Son] may be One,as we will all be one, under the Father, when God is all in all.

Joh 17:11  ...Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Joh 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

1Co 15:28  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Hope this helps some.

Peace...Mark

[doug]

All this foolishness makes me wish I never posted the article. I have other things Ray left on his PC that will never see the light of day.

Hello Dennis,
If you could sleep over it and have a change of heart...  why don't you post Ray's unfinished papers and then lock the subject.
Each of us could then let the Spirit reveal to us what is needed to be revealed in our individual walk.  We each will continue to grow at our own pace.

In His Love,
doug

[Gina]

If Jesus were His Father, who would have been running the universe when Jesus died, Denise?

This is all in Ray's papers.  I hope you'll read them.  It's really not that difficult.

( I agree with Doug. Time to lock it. )

[Revilonivek]

Please be patient with me...  I'm trying to make sense of the deeper stuff- I may be way off and completely wrong. This is conversation is a huge topic and new too. that's for sure. It's definitely mind blowing and of course people will want to participate and talk about it.

Maybe Here's another understanding that may be more correct?

Maybe Jesus is a separate being that came from the Father but also carried The Father's name.. LIke Smith and son,   So therefore Jesus carried his father's Name. or is it more like Joseph Sr. and Joseph Jr? LIke senior and junior analogy? So does this mean all people that carry the same name represent one family, so maybe in a sense. when you become of like mind as the Father and the son, you become one family with them?

I learn best from analogies when it comes to deeper stuff. some analogies don't click, others does.

Denise

[Gina]

You're beginning to get it. 

Ray has given many analogies.  If we all come here and post our own analogies (like I've done many times - not judging) it will be total chaos.   

Ask God to help you read and understand Ray's articles.  That's what Ray did when reading the bible, and that's what we are all trying to do.

One thing Ray said was a major key in God opening up the scriptures to his understanding was that he REPENTED.  We won't understand anything until we repent and obey God.

Please read the articles and ask God for wisdom Who gives generously and without faultfinding.

[Revilonivek]

Thanks Gina-

 

 I guess patience is a virtue and it's going to take its time.  God has his plans and I'm just glad he has salvation for all mankind in mind as well. You're absolutely right,  we have to repent from sinning against the light in order to understand the effects it has on the light and that alone will help you dwell in the light with the Father.  The thing is, Jesus understood his Father and I want to understand what Jesus understood about his Father as well. I also want to understand what Ray  understood of our Father as well. I guess all in due time.

[Kenneth Clark]

we will know the truth in another age...to me it doesnt matter...just love God and talk to Him...just talk to Him

[Gabriel]

Ancient Israelites knew that God had a special, unique Son:
 
PROVERBS 30:4  Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? (KJV)

I'll qoute from the apocryphal book Sirach just to make a point.

SIRACH 51:10 I appealed to the Lord, the Father of my lord, not to forsake me in the days of affliction, at the time when there is no help against the proud. (RSV)

I personally don't believe Ray was teaching that Jesus was his own father.

Gabriel 

[Dave in Tenn]

Took my own advice and laid aside any assumptions.  Here's what I got:

Ray started this paper like he has started nearly every paper.  Exposing those who contradict and teaching sound doctrine.  (That's the very purpose for Bible-Truths.com--sez so right on the fron t page.

What/who did he expose?  This sect of 'holy-name' afficianodos.  Small, maybe, but vocal.

What sound doctrine did he teach?  That the Father gave Jesus the same name as the Father, and that both share the same attributes.

What/who did he expose?  Those who claim that Jesus wasn't around in the Old Testament.

What sound doctrine did he teach?  That Jesus is the Jehovah of the Old Testament.

Now I've personally never been seriously tempted by the 'sacred name' business.  But if a group in babylon asserts that men are not saved unless they pronounce the name of YWVH in Hebrew, then that is bondage I am happy to see ANYBODY freed from.  I'm also glad to know that my faith IN Jesus (and the faith OF Jesus on my behalf) are not in vain.

If there is much of anything else IN THE ARTICLE, I missed it.  I have asserted since the beginning of this interest, that there would not be anything forthcoming that CHANGED what Ray has already shared.  This article has not changed that 'opinion'. 

Most of B-T was posted before I ever found it.  Here's a brief (and woefully incomplete) list of things Ray has already said.  In most cases, I've had to lay down my assumptions in these matters.  In all of those cases, I am glad I did. 

God is Spirit, not A Spirit.

Spirit has no hands.  (Tell a child that God has no hands, and see if she feels sorry for Him.  I don't want to be child.)

God is not a six-foot tall man (as some silly preacher claimed).  Am I to assume that God is then a 7-foot-tall man?  How about a 600 foot tall man?  If I'm really "spiritual", is he a 6 million mile tall man?

In the "doctrine of the trinity" there are three "persons".  Scripturally, only one of those could be described as a 'person'.

Jesus is the "creative original" by whom are all things.  (As a 'trinitarian'--even as lapsed as I was--I had a lot of problems with the first part).

What is seen is not made out of nothing, but out of that which is unseen.

Spirit is invisible.

Jesus is the express image of Almighty God.

Mankind is being formed (conformed) into the image of the Son.

God is not a Trinity.  God is not a Duality.  But what was the 'conclusion' --the sound Doctrine--of the trinity paper?  God is an expanding Family.

Now I have to preach.  Sorry.  Even if any of us don't 'get' the enigma of God, we're not left without 'instructions'.  The consummate act of all mankind will be to aver (say with full conviction) that Jesus Christ is Lord.  He is my God, if indeed I do what He says.  He is the author and finisher of my faith (look to Him).  He is the Creator and Sustainer of the world.  He is the Word of God.  He is the mediator between God and man.  These things (and many others) don't have NO meaning just because you haven't worked out this family relationship.

I've tried not to overstep, and am sorry if I have.

 

[cjwood]

All this foolishness makes me wish I never posted the article. I have other things Ray left on his PC that will never see the light of day.

Hello Dennis,
If you could sleep over it and have a change of heart...  why don't you post Ray's unfinished papers and then lock the subject.
Each of us could then let the Spirit reveal to us what is needed to be revealed in our individual walk.  We each will continue to grow at our own pace.

In His Love,
doug

dennis, your statement made me sad.       if you had not posted the article, we would have been denied the opportunity to be shown by the Holy Spirit some things we might have never been shown before, had this article not seen the light of day.  i am one of those.  and i am grateful that you posted it.

i included doug's post reply because i thought it was maybe something to think about.  kind of like a bible study, that is not in detail, but like short studies that ray was looking into.  whomever the Spirit causes to study and search the scriptures, on whichever topic of ray's studies they are guided to.  but then of course, each posting of whichever papers dennis decides to share, must include a lock.  there is always the pm option if someone wants to discuss a paper further.

there were many subjects that ray was desiring to write about.  he was always asking God questions about things.  different areas of study in many different stages of getting thoughts to paper/computer.  but, perhaps a sort of outline for further study, and let the Spirit guide us.  the 'foolishness' can be controlled by a lock.

claudia

[Gina]

Whether Dennis changes his mind or not, I won't put any more pressure on him than he has already. 

I'm grateful for the article.  With everything Ray has given us I feel well provided for.

As for me, I will be content with what I've been given.  If what I have been given already isn't enough and I feel compelled to put pressure on Dennis (as if I've been starved) I'm a sorry case and not acting in love.