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New article: "Solving The Enigma Of God" just posted.
John from Kentucky:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13550.0.html
It seems Ray thought this topic was a tad more complicated than just a Father and Son being one in a family relationship. If you read the several emails from Ray over the past year and Ray's article on his creed about this nature of God topic, you will begin to see there is much, much more to God.
It's all in the scriptures. Jesus said He and the Father are one. But most don't want to believe the scriptures. So they feel the need to explain away clear scriptures.
However, I believe Kat's post said it best. We need to study this topic on our own and let the Spirit guide us.
Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit, says the LORD Almighty. Zech 4:6
Truly, You are a God who hides Himself, O God of Israel, Savior! Isa 45:15
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on June 23, 2012, 08:24:05 PM ---http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13550.0.html
It seems Ray thought this topic was a tad more complicated than just a Father and Son being one in a family relationship. If you read the several emails from Ray over the past year and Ray's article on his creed about this nature of God topic, you will begin to see there is much, much more to God.
--- End quote ---
Actually John, it was being taught from just that perspective: a family. Here is an excerpt from the last bible study Ray held in March 2011 (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12896.msg113153.html#msg113153):
I’m not suggesting that there are two Gods, I’m saying that the one God said, “let Us,” that's all that I am saying. I’m not saying that there is more than one God. We have all kinds of examples of how that is possible.
I think we should do away or should have done away… well it’s pretty hard to do it now... but we should have never got in the habit of translating in English Yahweh and Elohim and Adonia, we should have never translated it God. God is a pagan heathen title. Why should we call the God of creation after some pagan title? Why should we? After all we know He’s not a pagan god, yet we’re strapped with the idea that the word Elohim is translated the true God and the god of the pagans. God of creation that was Elohim and Mohoc of the Canaanites that was elohim too.
I would have made a distinction. I would have translated it something like this, since we know what God is from other Scriptures and so on. I would have translated it something like this, in the beginning the Almighty Family created the heavens and the earth. What’s wrong with that? To me that’s what God is. Takes care of the ‘one,’ family, takes care of the plural, family has more than one unit.
Or we could say, the Almighty Divine Family, saying let Us make man in Our image. You could throw the word divine or divinity in there, that okay that’s a good word. It takes care of the plurality of the word Elohim. We could call Him the Almighty Divine Family. What’s wrong with that?
To me the pagan title god or in Germany gott, it doesn’t do justice to the God of creation.
We are familiar with lots of words anyway that are used with a singular pronouns and so on, but consist of multiple units. We speak of the United States of America, United States, plural. One nation under God or it used to be one nation, I don’t know what it is now. One nation, united, states plural. One nation, okay. This isn’t rocket science, it’s not hard to understand.
You can have an orchestra, one orchestra, 150 members. It doesn’t mean since you have more than one you have more than one orchestras? The accusation is, ‘if there is more than one talking then you are saying there is more than one God.’ No I’m not and neither is the Scripture saying that
Ps 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord and against His Anointed...
Eph 2:19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God
2 Cor 6:18 I will be a Father to you, and you shall be My sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.
Excerpt from 'Solving the Enigma of God Part 1' (http://bible-truths.com/enigmaOfGod.htm):
THE NAME HIDDEN IN PLAIN SIGHT
Most Christians have no idea that virtually all of the Old Testament references to "God" or "the LORD-YHWH-Jehovah," are not spoken by God the Father, but by someone else. And just who might that someone else be? We'll get to it.
But I will give you at least one Old Testament Hebrew Scripture which tells us exactly what the name of God the Father is. In the 2nd Psalm we have reference to two individuals: They are "the LORD" and "His Anointed" and "the LORD and My Son."
Psalm 2:2- "The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, [Heb: YHWH-Jehovah] and against His Anointed, saying,"
Psalm 2:7-"I will declare the decree: the LORD [Heb: YHWH-Jehovah] hath said unto me, Thou art My Son; this day have I begotten Thee."
Psalm 2:11-"Serve the LORD [Heb: Jehovah] with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son..." (and Psalm 2:12)
In these verses we can clearly identify the Father's name as "Jehovah."
We have Jehovah and His Anointed; Jehovah and His Son; and again Jehovah and His Son. So in these verses at least, Jehovah HAS to be the Father as He is contrasted with His Anointed and with His Son. And so though Jesus never called His Father by the name "Jehovah," it is clear (from Scripture) that Jehovah is His Father's name.
Stating that Jehovah is the name of a Family is not explaining away the scriptures, but in actuality, harmonizing them.
Hope this helps,
Marques
John from Kentucky:
Hello Marques,
No, it does not help at all. I'm aware with what Ray said at his March 2011 bible study.
It was Ray's emails after that which just amazed me. I believe the April 2, 2011 may have been the first? In that one, the third paragraph from the bottom, Ray said that all prior teachings by the churches didn't explain the nature of God. Ray also said that his paper on the trinity and the origin of Jesus did not explain all the scriptures on this subject either. From that, I learned Ray was rethinking some of his prior papers and wanted to go into greater detail on the Nature of God. Here is another email from Ray that just stunned me and gave me insight into deeper understandings to come.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7500.msg115456.html#msg115456
I had a telephone conversation with Ray in August 2011 on several topics. I told Ray that what he implied in his recent emails just stunned me. That I was dumbfounded by their implications. I also said that I thought many on the Forum would have difficulty with these ideas. Ray told me that we all would need to change some of our previous understandings.
This thread makes it clear to me that many don't have a clue where Ray was going. But I found in Ray's article on his creed that he had a conclusion in mind.
The answers are clearly stated in the scriptures. But most our blinded until the Spirit gives us the understanding. The first step is to bring together all the scriptures on God, and Jesus, and how they interact. But without the Spirit, it will be meaningless.
In order not to cause confusion and break the fellowship of the Forum, it will best to drop the subject, and let God guide our way.
One question I have is why God allowed this topic to be brought up by Ray, and then just hang there without a definitive resolution?
Our God is a strange God. He does do things His own way. 8)
Kat:
Hi eggi,
--- Quote ---Isn't this closeness that Jesus has with His Father that makes them ONE GOD, also what will be OURS when we will be ONE FAMILY (ALL INCLUDED) when God is ALL in ALL? This however, doesn't mean that all will be one lump where nobody will be distinguishable from each other.
--- End quote ---
Yes that is in the Scripture, "all" created beings that have ever live will one day be one with the Father and the Son, that is the second all in "all in all."
John 17:11 And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as We are one.
John 17:22 And I have given them the glory which You have given Me, that they may be one, even as We are one,
So the Father and Son are in perfect Oneness with each other in Spirit and mind. Jesus had a discussion with the Jews about this.
John 10:30 I and My Father are one.
v. 31 The Jews took up stones again to stone Him.
v. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from the Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
v. 33 The Jews answered Him, For a good work we stone You not, but for blasphemy; and because that You, being a man, make Yourself God.
v. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods?
Interesting what Christ says there, He is referring to Psalms 82, which actually proves the Salvation of all.
Psa 82:5 They know not, neither do they understand; They walk to and fro in darkness: All the foundations of the earth are shaken.
God is speaking of all people that have ever lived, everybody is in darkness until the Holy Spirit (Christ) is indwelling, "I have come as a Light into the world, so that whoever believes on Me should not remain in darkness" (Joh 12:46).
Psa 82:6 I said, Ye are gods, And all of you sons of the Most High.
v. 7 Nevertheless ye shall die like men, And fall like one of the princes.
v. 8 Arise, O God, judge the earth; For You shalt inherit all the nations.
Jehovah here in Psalms states that ALL will be sons of the Most High God and so shows the salvation of ALL. In John 10 Jesus told the Jews He and the Father were one and when they wanted to stone Him for that, He reminded them of what was said in Psalms (by Him), He is one with the Father and that all will be sons of and therefore one with God.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on June 23, 2012, 09:35:54 PM ---Hello Marques,
No, it does not help at all. I'm aware with what Ray said at his March 2011 bible study.
It was Ray's emails after that which just amazed me. I believe the April 2, 2011 may have been the first? In that one, the third paragraph from the bottom, Ray said that all prior teachings by the churches didn't explain the nature of God. Ray also said that his paper on the trinity and the origin of Jesus did not explain all the scriptures on this subject either. From that, I learned Ray was rethinking some of his prior papers and wanted to go into greater detail on the Nature of God. Here is another email from Ray that just stunned me and gave me insight into deeper understandings to come.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7500.msg115456.html#msg115456
I had a telephone conversation with Ray in August 2011 on several topics. I told Ray that what he implied in his recent emails just stunned me. That I was dumbfounded by their implications. I also said that I thought many on the Forum would have difficulty with these ideas. Ray told me that we all would need to change some of our previous understandings.
This thread makes it clear to me that many don't have a clue where Ray was going. But I found in Ray's article on his creed that he had a conclusion in mind.
The answers are clearly stated in the scriptures. But most our blinded until the Spirit gives us the understanding. The first step is to bring together all the scriptures on God, and Jesus, and how they interact. But without the Spirit, it will be meaningless.
In order not to cause confusion and break the fellowship of the Forum, it will best to drop the subject, and let God guide our way.
One question I have is why God allowed this topic to be brought up by Ray, and then just hang there without a definitive resolution?
Our God is a strange God. He does do things His own way. 8)
--- End quote ---
John you continue to reference past emails and comments from Ray, but you do not post any of them...you don't specify any particular comment. That type of behavior is what leads to confusion.
Even the link you provided has a quote from Ray speaking of the Father and Jesus as 'the two of them'. Yet you continue to imply that Ray was teaching that the Father and Jesus are the same being/entity.
Here were your first comments in this thread:
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on June 21, 2012, 01:20:09 PM ---I no longer believe that Jesus is separate from the Father. The scriptures teach that the Father is God. The scriptures teach that Jesus is God. If the Father and Jesus are separate, then you have two separate Gods. However, the scriptures teach that there is only One God.
Jesus spoke the Truth when He said, "I (Jesus) and the Father are One."
--- End quote ---
While you no longer believe such, you continue to insist Ray was teaching this as well yet provide no specific comment or quote. You state that Ray was 'changing' his line of thinking, when in reality, Ray has been teaching for years that the term 'God' is more of a title than what you would actually call the Father or the Son.
It's One God because it is One Family, not one single being. This line of thinking you are taking on is the same as the trinity...it closes humanity out instead of what the scriptures teach that God is an ever expanding family. That was the essential message of the Trinity paper and that message has not changed, Ray has only been expanding on this topic.
God never changes course with His message through His messengers, He always expands upon what was already being taught. For example, Jesus stated He did not come to 'change' the law but to fulfill. Paul stated the same that he knew the law was spiritual...it was always spiritual, but Israel did not have the understanding to follow it. The message never changed, God just expanded upon that same message.
--- Quote ---One question I have is why God allowed this topic to be brought up by Ray, and then just hang there without a definitive resolution?
Our God is a strange God. He does do things His own way. 8)
--- End quote ---
1 Cor 11:19 For there must also be factions [Gk. 'heresies'] among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you.
Because we are all sheep but only a few will follow His Voice [John 10:27].
Marques
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