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[John from Kentucky]

Hi John,

One question I have is why God allowed this topic to be brought up by Ray, and then just hang there without a definitive resolution?

Because God did bring this questions out through His servant, Ray, as we all listened to Ray and these things that Ray brought up about this enigma, very obviously, stirred up a lot of thought and questions on this. But God does not depend on any man and He can/will easily bring the answers to this question to any of us whenever He chooses.

I think we are missing the obvious on this inexplicable relationship that the Father and the Son have in oneness... that is the enigma! It's not that the Father and Son are the same being, it's that the connection that they do have is near (if not totally) impossible for a human mind to comprehend.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Hi Kat,

Thank you for your comments and I see your points.

I do not believe that the Father and Son are the same being.  But I do believe they are One because that is what the scriptures teach over and over.  They are not two Gods.  And I do think the human mind can understand with the Holy Spirit.  Remember what Jesus said that there is nothing impossible to God.

Thanks again.

John

[Gina]

When I think of the U.S. analogy, I think:  War with Iraq, etc..  When I think "Family"  the word "feud" comes to mind. 

I love the orchestra analogy.  I'm going with that one.   That sounds so much better than "God." 

"God" it's exactly like Denise said in another thread:  it gives you this picture of a titan "up there" with his scepter. 

It's so Year 4000 B.C., dahlings. 

God surely does Provide!  This is a keeper and almost forgot it existed:


(http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12896.msg113153.html#msg113153):


To me the pagan title god or in Germany gott, it doesn’t do justice to the God of creation.

We are familiar with lots of words anyway that are used with a singular pronouns and so on, but consist of multiple units. We speak of the United States of America, United States, plural. One nation under God or it used to be one nation, I don’t know what it is now. One nation, united, states plural. One nation, okay. This isn’t rocket science, it’s not hard to understand.

You can have an orchestra, one orchestra, 150 members. It doesn’t mean since you have more than one you have more than one orchestras? The accusation is, ‘if there is more than one talking then you are saying there is more than one God.’ No I’m not and neither is the Scripture saying that

Ps 2:2  The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord and against His Anointed...

Eph 2:19  Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God

2 Cor 6:18  I will be a Father to you, and you shall be My sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.

[mharrell08]

Marques,

You said I referenced Ray's emails but never posted them.  Actually, I posted two of them above.  Here is a third one.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12934.0.html

Take a look at the third paragraph from the bottom.  Ray says, and I quote, "Nor does my paper on the trinity or the origin of Jesus explain and harmonize all of these Scriptures.  I am seeing glimpses of a greater understanding of the relationship between the Father and the Son, but my understanding is yet far from complete."

I understood from Ray's statement that his prior understanding on this nature of God matter was incomplete and more information would be forthcoming.

Also, I do not believe that the Father and Jesus are the same being.  Nor do I think Ray thought so either.  I don't think the word being is even in the scriptures much less using that term in reference to the Father.

I said I do not believe Jesus is separate from the Father.  Because, if they are separate then you have two separate Gods.  The scriptures teach there is One God.

John, them being separate, which they are seeing that One was dead [Rev 1:5] and the Other is Immortal [1 Tim 6:16], has nothing to do with having 'two Gods'. God or Lord, which are better served as saying 'Jehovah', is a family name. That's why there is one God/Lord/Jehovah but 2 separate beings...with this household of God ever expanding. We will all soon carry the name Jehovah [Rev 3:12] but we will be separate from one another.

I understand exactly what you are saying John, from your comments above as well as the Father and Son being a little more complicated than a simple family relationship. But the scriptures teach again and again that it is exactly that: a Family relationship.

I grow weary when members state that a particular subject is so much more complicated and it takes 'the spirit' to understand. These types of comments do nothing to edify the body but rather lift oneself up above the rest. In times past, when a member has made this sort of comment, it is because they have a new idol of the heart that they don't plan to give up anytime soon.

Jesus, Paul, and the rest of the apostles spoke of a family dynamic that we will all soon be a part of. If they never saw fit to make that understanding more complicated, I don't see why we would either.


Marques

[Kat]

Hi John,

I do not believe that the Father and Son are the same being.  But I do believe they are One because that is what the scriptures teach over and over.  They are not two Gods.  And I do think the human mind can understand with the Holy Spirit.  Remember what Jesus said that there is nothing impossible to God.

Yes God could bring this understanding to any of us, I guess He could take us to the 3rd heaven, like He did Paul and show us. But for now we are having a physical experience and with the Holy Spirit indwelling we do gain spiritual understanding. But at this time that is only as an earnest/guarantee/promise (2Cor 1:22) and it's like we only see through a glass/mirror dimly, it's interesting how the CLV have this verse in 1 Corinthians.

1Co 13:12 For at present we are observing by means of a mirror, in an enigma, yet then, face to face. At present I know out of an instalment, yet then I shall recognize according as I am recognized also."

The word enigma means something obscure or hard to understand. While we are still in the physical I don't think we have anything to point to that can adequately explain this Father and Son relationship/enigma, but God can and does give us a degree of understanding. But until we are actually born into the kingdom and have become spirit beings,and are like Christ, I don't think we can fully understand. But then when we do experience the spiritual realm first hand, we will "see Him as He is."

1John 3:2  Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

I think it may take our entering the kingdom, to relate to the Father as Jesus Christ does. But even then it will will just be the beginning, as Christ has had at least 14.6 billion of yrs to come to know the Father, that's the estimated age of the universe. Maybe it will take us a while too, to come to 'know' the Father.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Rene]

I do not believe that the Father and Son are the same being. 

Hi John,

I'm glad you cleared that up because your previous statement about the "Father and Son not being separate" gave me the impression you were saying they were the same being.  Just a little further explanation, goes a long way.

As Marques quoted: "It is One God because it is One Family.....God is an ever expanding family" is a clear and simple statement I understand.  

René

[Kat]

Hi Rene,

I couldn't find the word "Enigma" in any bible translation, so maybe that is why this topic has thrown us into a state of confusion. Just a thought.

Ah but it is. I just run across it in the CLV.

1Co 13:12 For at present we are observing by means of a mirror, in an enigma, yet then, face to face. At present I know out of an instalment, yet then I shall recognize according as I am recognized also."

I find that very interesting that as other translations say we see things dimly, it stated that we see them in an enigma. The word enigma means something obscure or hard to understand. Does explain a lot.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

 

[Gina]

This thread is a sad testimonial to  Ray.... I personally don't think you all are going to resolve this matter

 

I think this is a wonderful testimonial to Ray.  I'm so grateful to God. 

Ray pointed out that the Orchestra Family of Jehovah and Jesus provides.  I'm telling you, God provided for me abundantly through this thread.  I've been praying and thanking God all night since I saw the orchestra analogy again that Marques pulled out.  I almost forgot that was there. 

Some might fault JFK for starting something (I'm positive none of the mods do), and while I personally don't agree with some of the things JFK said, I thank God for his posts too because without them Marques would not have remembered Ray's 2011 bible study.  (I'd totally forgotten all about that analogy and that's the whole key.)

God provides abundantly. 

As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he. 

If anyone thinks or believes God is impossible to understand then He will be impossible to understand to that person.

If anyone refuses to believe Jesus when He said He'd send the Comforter to teach you all things, then you won't receive the Comforter and your understanding won't be opened.

We don't need the mind of Ray! We need the mind of Jesus Christ.  Let this mind be in you.


All we have to do is ... pay attention to all the Word of God.  And believe it.

[Rene]

Ah but it is. I just run across it in the CLV.

1Co 13:12 For at present we are observing by means of a mirror, in an enigma, yet then, face to face. At present I know out of an instalment, yet then I shall recognize according as I am recognized also."

I find that very interesting that as other translations say we see things dimly, it stated that we see them in an enigma. The word enigma means something obscure or hard to understand. Does explain a lot.

I stand corrected.

René

[Gina]

Arncha glad his Name isn't Enigma?

And the Father's Hebrew name would be:  NGM 

Wouldn't wanna belong to an orchestra with a name like that.  ha!

[GaryK]

This thread is a sad testimonial to  Ray.... I personally don't think you all are going to resolve this matter

 

I think this is a wonderful testimonial to Ray.  I'm so grateful to God. 

 I'm telling you, God provided for me abundantly through this thread.   



As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he. 

If anyone thinks or believes God is impossible to understand then He will be impossible to understand to that person.

If anyone refuses to believe Jesus when He said He'd send the Comforter to teach you all things, then you won't receive the Comforter and your understanding won't be opened.



All we have to do is ... pay attention to all the Word of God.  And believe it.

Why am I not surprised?   


And so, I stand corrected.  Post removed.

So is my membership.   Some people don't know when to shut-up........obviously I'm one of them.

gk

[Gina]

gk, we don't need the mind of Ray, we need the mind of Jesus Christ.  I wasn't picking on you.  I think you're a wonderful person.  I'm glad for your post.  Once again, God provides for me.

[servias]

This whole thread is an Enigma!  I do not think any of this is explainable.  That's why it is an enigma and probably can't be solved on paper.  It can probably only be solved in spirit.  Opinions should be kept to a minimum on this in my opinion  .  More scripture, less opinion...In the end we will all probably agree that we can't solve it collectively.

[Gina]

But the Name of God and God's relationship to the Son has been solved for me in a way I never dreamed possible.  That's all that was going on here. 

God provides.  And this first installment has been a major gift to me.

I am researching a paper on "Solving the Enigma of God." But as it is somewhere in the future, I decided to cover some of the shorter enigmas that will prepare us for a deeper understanding of just Who our God really is. So this paper is one of those related Biblical Enigmas.

Are we going to have a deeper understanding (not a complete understanding, but definitely a deeper one) of just Who our God really is?   I believe a few will.

God is a RICH provider/supplier of needs for anyone willing to believe this.

But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus. (Phil. 4:19)

[Revilonivek]

Dear, Indianabob-

Thank you for your advice. I will certainly take that to heart. I need to mind my manners and it only takes a few minutes to correct, revise and post. Sometimes when I've written for so long and so often, as writing is my primary method of communication with other hearing people, I start to get lazy about checking my grammar every time I write.  Again, thank you for your reminder and I appreciate your generosity in your words. I will try to do better from now on.

Thank you again,

Denise

[Revilonivek]

Dennis-

In earlier conversation, I was only suggesting  what if because The Father and Son has the same name. Jehovah and Jesus.  I assumed maybe they are the same essence of the same being- Father - invisible- The son- flesh version- More like a clone twin of each other that just split. in essence, the same being. if you get my meaning? But Gina pointed out it is more like Father and son family thing, like Smith and son, Jennings and son, Vogel and son, everyone in the same family has the same last name. So whenever we join the Father's family- we carry his name. we become one family with them. Like son come out of the mother, same sense.  I understand that now.

Am i on the right track?


Denise-

Yes, I would agree Denise.

Rev 3:12  He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.

Dear Marques,

Thank you for showing me that particular scripture. I never really noticed that part in the same  verse where Jesus said about giving us God's name once we conquer ourselves till now.  It was really something. It is just another confirmation that God's name is just a family name. I had that verse on the brain in the past because Jesus said, in the same verse, that we will no more go out if we overcome ourselves". I always wondered what he meant by that.  I mean, where would we go if we don't overcome ourselves and until when we do overcome ourselves?  but that's for another thread. Thank you so much for that scripture, as it adds to and confirms further among many other confirmations that God's name is just a family name and God wants everyone to adopted into one family and carry the family name. It freed my soul even more. Thank you Marques. 

Denise

[the truth]

Oh how I love my family,you bters that is!Because in you....Christ.... is everything I need to be whole.We so function as a family.You have your babes who have been watching and listening to ever word of the percieved grown ups.While the grown ups make sure the other grown ups know this aint their first rodeo.While all along their all trying to press in to make sure they will be helpful when it appears the kids have been left as orphans.Let me just say I love my Family...I love you because YOU desire with all that God has graced you to be .To know and  learn of ways of God.So i hope Dennis you will see that this  topic is no different than any other article that has been written.The only difference is that Ray isnt here to fall back on.As has already been said it was never about Ray the person but what was revealing to Ray .....the Spirit of GOD!We so have such a awesome group of people here.But the very blessed thing about what we have here is that each person has a beautiful gift to offer.Sure I could make a list of who I think could impart to me the most wisdom..but what if i didnt need wisdom? I just needed a hug,a listening ear? or maybe just to be told how to make Banana pudding.I am thrilled to know one day I will meet you all and when i do you will know I love you!So lets keep growing together Iron sharpens Iron!For this is true love that we challenge each other to continue to grow in the Faith!

[Rene]

For this is true love that we challenge each other to continue to grow in the Faith!

Nicely put, Jerry.  

René

[olasupo jacobs]

For this is true love that we challenge each other to continue to grow in the Faith!

Nicely put, Jerry.  

René

Yes lets continue in that spirit...loving each other and growing in the faith- olasupo jacobs

[Vera]

Thank you Kat,
I agree with you...I believe that God wants us to study and knock, seek and ask.... now is the time. He took Ray home from us for a reason otherwise he would be still with us...
As much as we miss him we need to be thankful to our Father for leaving us this way so we will rely on Him totally and get ready for more on our own....if we are His elect our ears are open to hear and eyes to see...
Anyway this is what I feel deep in my spirit even though I still have lots to study from Rays papers I will continue to seek Gods Truth...
I love your answers Kat.
p.s. I know I'm new here and don't write to much but it is nice to read your Posts and learn. Thank you all.
Vera 

[Joel]

Thanks Dennis for posting the new article, I always get something beneficial when I read one of Ray's papers or watch him doing a Bible study. All the material including the numerous emails is really staggering, when looking at the bigger picture. He was a very gifted teacher.
I can see that Jesus came in his Father's name, and it is made more clear when I think of the Church. The Church being the body of Christ, ONE body but many members. (Christians)
Thanks again! would welcome any more insights Ray may have had.

Joel