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New article: "Solving The Enigma Of God" just posted.
John from Kentucky:
--- Quote from: Kat on June 23, 2012, 10:28:24 PM ---
Hi John,
--- Quote ---One question I have is why God allowed this topic to be brought up by Ray, and then just hang there without a definitive resolution?
--- End quote ---
Because God did bring this questions out through His servant, Ray, as we all listened to Ray and these things that Ray brought up about this enigma, very obviously, stirred up a lot of thought and questions on this. But God does not depend on any man and He can/will easily bring the answers to this question to any of us whenever He chooses.
I think we are missing the obvious on this inexplicable relationship that the Father and the Son have in oneness... that is the enigma! It's not that the Father and Son are the same being, it's that the connection that they do have is near (if not totally) impossible for a human mind to comprehend.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
Hi Kat,
Thank you for your comments and I see your points.
I do not believe that the Father and Son are the same being. But I do believe they are One because that is what the scriptures teach over and over. They are not two Gods. And I do think the human mind can understand with the Holy Spirit. Remember what Jesus said that there is nothing impossible to God.
Thanks again.
John
Gina:
When I think of the U.S. analogy, I think: War with Iraq, etc.. When I think "Family" the word "feud" comes to mind.
I love the orchestra analogy. I'm going with that one. That sounds so much better than "God."
"God" it's exactly like Denise said in another thread: it gives you this picture of a titan "up there" with his scepter.
It's so Year 4000 B.C., dahlings.
God surely does Provide! This is a keeper and almost forgot it existed:
(http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12896.msg113153.html#msg113153):
To me the pagan title god or in Germany gott, it doesn’t do justice to the God of creation.
We are familiar with lots of words anyway that are used with a singular pronouns and so on, but consist of multiple units. We speak of the United States of America, United States, plural. One nation under God or it used to be one nation, I don’t know what it is now. One nation, united, states plural. One nation, okay. This isn’t rocket science, it’s not hard to understand.
You can have an orchestra, one orchestra, 150 members. It doesn’t mean since you have more than one you have more than one orchestras? The accusation is, ‘if there is more than one talking then you are saying there is more than one God.’ No I’m not and neither is the Scripture saying that
Ps 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord and against His Anointed...
Eph 2:19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God
2 Cor 6:18 I will be a Father to you, and you shall be My sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on June 24, 2012, 12:15:17 AM ---Marques,
You said I referenced Ray's emails but never posted them. Actually, I posted two of them above. Here is a third one.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12934.0.html
Take a look at the third paragraph from the bottom. Ray says, and I quote, "Nor does my paper on the trinity or the origin of Jesus explain and harmonize all of these Scriptures. I am seeing glimpses of a greater understanding of the relationship between the Father and the Son, but my understanding is yet far from complete."
I understood from Ray's statement that his prior understanding on this nature of God matter was incomplete and more information would be forthcoming.
Also, I do not believe that the Father and Jesus are the same being. Nor do I think Ray thought so either. I don't think the word being is even in the scriptures much less using that term in reference to the Father.
I said I do not believe Jesus is separate from the Father. Because, if they are separate then you have two separate Gods. The scriptures teach there is One God.
--- End quote ---
John, them being separate, which they are seeing that One was dead [Rev 1:5] and the Other is Immortal [1 Tim 6:16], has nothing to do with having 'two Gods'. God or Lord, which are better served as saying 'Jehovah', is a family name. That's why there is one God/Lord/Jehovah but 2 separate beings...with this household of God ever expanding. We will all soon carry the name Jehovah [Rev 3:12] but we will be separate from one another.
I understand exactly what you are saying John, from your comments above as well as the Father and Son being a little more complicated than a simple family relationship. But the scriptures teach again and again that it is exactly that: a Family relationship.
I grow weary when members state that a particular subject is so much more complicated and it takes 'the spirit' to understand. These types of comments do nothing to edify the body but rather lift oneself up above the rest. In times past, when a member has made this sort of comment, it is because they have a new idol of the heart that they don't plan to give up anytime soon.
Jesus, Paul, and the rest of the apostles spoke of a family dynamic that we will all soon be a part of. If they never saw fit to make that understanding more complicated, I don't see why we would either.
Marques
Kat:
Hi John,
--- Quote ---I do not believe that the Father and Son are the same being. But I do believe they are One because that is what the scriptures teach over and over. They are not two Gods. And I do think the human mind can understand with the Holy Spirit. Remember what Jesus said that there is nothing impossible to God.
--- End quote ---
Yes God could bring this understanding to any of us, I guess He could take us to the 3rd heaven, like He did Paul and show us. But for now we are having a physical experience and with the Holy Spirit indwelling we do gain spiritual understanding. But at this time that is only as an earnest/guarantee/promise (2Cor 1:22) and it's like we only see through a glass/mirror dimly, it's interesting how the CLV have this verse in 1 Corinthians.
1Co 13:12 For at present we are observing by means of a mirror, in an enigma, yet then, face to face. At present I know out of an instalment, yet then I shall recognize according as I am recognized also."
The word enigma means something obscure or hard to understand. While we are still in the physical I don't think we have anything to point to that can adequately explain this Father and Son relationship/enigma, but God can and does give us a degree of understanding. But until we are actually born into the kingdom and have become spirit beings,and are like Christ, I don't think we can fully understand. But then when we do experience the spiritual realm first hand, we will "see Him as He is."
1John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
I think it may take our entering the kingdom, to relate to the Father as Jesus Christ does. But even then it will will just be the beginning, as Christ has had at least 14.6 billion of yrs to come to know the Father, that's the estimated age of the universe. Maybe it will take us a while too, to come to 'know' the Father.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Rene:
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on June 24, 2012, 12:25:20 AM ---
I do not believe that the Father and Son are the same being.
--- End quote ---
Hi John,
I'm glad you cleared that up because your previous statement about the "Father and Son not being separate" gave me the impression you were saying they were the same being. Just a little further explanation, goes a long way. ;)
As Marques quoted: "It is One God because it is One Family.....God is an ever expanding family" is a clear and simple statement I understand. :)
René
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