144,000?

[doug]

and why "hundred and forth and four thousand?? can anyone help me? thanks

Hello Newgene -

Congratulations on your recent marriage.  I hope that it will be a huge blessing in both of your lives!

This is my understanding of the two 144,000 Revelation passages... hopefully you can use it in your study.

In Rev. 14 they are shown to us to be those who have been redeemed from earth.  They are those, we read, who are chaste.  This is verse 4:  "They have not defiled themselves with women."  In other words, they're the perfect bride of Christ.  Their sins have been covered by the blood of Christ, and they stand before God as if they had never sinned.  And they have been redeemed from mankind:  "and no lie was found in their mouth."  In other words, when we are spiritually dead we are slaves of satan, who is the father of lies.  And once God gives us His spirit, our sins are covered and we're like those who have never lied.  And this is talking about all the elect of God.

Now the number 144,000 is used because God frequently uses numbers symbolically.  The number 12 is symbolical of the fullness of God's program of whatever He has in view.  And here he is talking about the number of believers; the fullness of believers.

Sometimes God uses it as 12 plus 12.  And so we have the 24 elders in Rev.. Sometimes He uses it as 12 times 12.  And so we have the 144 in the 144,000 believers (not an actual number but spiritual).  Sometimes He uses it as 12 times 12 times 12.  And so we have the Holy City, the New Jerusalem, which is in size 12,000 stadia by 12,000 stadia by 12,000 stadia.  And in the Holy City Jerusalem, which is the fullness of all believers, we have 12 foundations, we have 12 gates, and we have walls that are 144 cubits thick.  The whole picture, you see, is symbolical.

And so with the 144,000, it is the fullness of all believers.  Now, in Rev. 7 they are spoken of as twelve tribes of Israel, because in the bible God speaks of the true believers as being the true seed of Abraham, whereas the blood descendants of Abraham are not necessarily Israel (physical).  The true Israel of God are those who are the believers in the Lord Jesus Christ.  Read Gal. 3 particularly, and you will see this.

I hope this helps.

doug

[Marky Mark]

Hey Gina
And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. "Rev-14-3.

The They is the Elect.Which is The body.... the Christ...... Correct. So whatever Christ does is what the Elect does correct.

I ask this because you said:
When you think NEW song, don't think "song"; think Jesus Christ and the works that He did which came from the Father.  That's the NEW song

So when WE....The Christ...proclaim,and do the works of the Father we are singing the song...Right ?  wrong?

Whenever a song is sung it is always with a voice. In the case of Scripture, that One voice that is being sung is that One Great voice, that, in essence, will harmonize in the truths of Gods Spirit,on the Lords day.

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

So when we take heed unto that trumpet [His voice] it represents what we can then begin to see in a song that is sung in the voice of our Lord, in harmony, within His few chosen, out of the world. Gods elect[144,000] will always hear His voice and follow Him and not the voice of strangers.He is the greatest song writer of all time.

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Psa 40:3 Now He is putting a new song in my mouth, A hymn of praise to our Elohim. Many shall see it and shall fear, And they shall trust in Yahweh."

Joh 6:63  The spirit is the life giver; the flesh is of no value: the words which I have said to you are spirit and they are life.

Joh 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Joh 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

Psa 98:1  O sing unto the LORD a new song; for he hath done marvellous things: his right hand, and his holy arm, hath gotten him the victory.

And truly he who overcomes will be singing the praises to the Lord[having the harps of God] in victory over the beast,standing on the sea of glass. We know it surely takes a lot of heat[fire] to make that glass.

Rev 15:2  And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. 

Our victory then is in having the harps of God...[in truth, unity, harmony, and praise]

All Praise and Glory to Him.


Peace...Mark

[newgene87]

oh wow Mark!! that was filled with so much Glory from the Lord. That filled my heart with Praise! and Thank you Gina, doug, and dennis. Putting all the pieces together: that 144,000 (obviously 12,000 times 12) is TOTAL number of fulness of all the believers and "redeemed of the earth" assembling and singing a "new" song. I see praise. and i see salvation for the WHOLE earth. it's amazing; it reminds me if you've ever drove past an outside ochestra (i cant spell that, forgive me); EVERYONE driving by will notice and stop and hear the "sound" of the music. or even an opera or someone with an amazing voice singing; anyone will notice. I can only imagine, when this "144,000" are SPIRITUALLY lifting their voices and singing this song which is the glory of the lamb, the whole learn will learn righteousness  ....thank you all. this is amazing to me. by the way, i'm guessing i dont have to look no further for the lyrics?? . thank you family

[Gina]

I like the sound of that too.  Thanks Marky Mark.

[the truth]

Thanks Marky Mark as always!

Psa 40:3 Now He is putting a new song in my mouth, A hymn of praise to our Elohim. Many shall see it and shall fear, And they shall trust in Yahweh."

Praise...Yahweh!

[newgene87]

Alrighty then; i have those pieces placed together understanding the "song" and the 144,000 which is the totality of the "redeemed of the earth"; can anyone help me find in scripture the spiritual application in Revelation 7:4-8?? John says, they were of the "tribes of Israel". Now, i notice Paul's word - "they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" (Rom 9:6) and in Galatians 3:7-9 he mentions those that are of Faith are the true sons of Abraham. So what's the "spiritual" meaning behind John writing out "specifically" 12,000 of EACH of the 12 Tribes of Israel? naming each one and listing the number. now, if i talk to anyone, they see the obvious that this is only for the Israelites and of them; but can someone help me out here in the truth?? how does this crossover to us "Gentiles"?? or..... did i miss the answer.... Again thank you all for the collective voices in singing this song of praise; which "many shall SEE and shall fear"  .

oh and gina, when i pray to God for wisdom...the answer for the prayers just seems to ironically happen when i click on this long drawn out name of a website, find the site's forum and start clicking randomly; i seem to find answers that way . I do pray, but you all are a family of biblical truths; i love coming in and being filled with words God will reveal to me later on. so THANK YOU ALL FOR THE REPLIES AND DISCUSSIONS

[Gina]

oh wow Mark!! that was filled with so much Glory from the Lord. That filled my heart with Praise! and Thank you Gina, doug, and dennis. Putting all the pieces together: that 144,000 (obviously 12,000 times 12) is TOTAL number of fulness of all the believers and "redeemed of the earth" assembling and singing a "new" song. I see praise. and i see salvation for the WHOLE earth. it's amazing; it reminds me if you've ever drove past an outside ochestra (i cant spell that, forgive me); EVERYONE driving by will notice and stop and hear the "sound" of the music. or even an opera or someone with an amazing voice singing; anyone will notice. I can only imagine, when this "144,000" are SPIRITUALLY lifting their voices and singing this song which is the glory of the lamb, the whole learn will learn righteousness  ....thank you all. this is amazing to me. by the way, i'm guessing i dont have to look no further for the lyrics?? . thank you family

You're welcome.

Okay,  I just got your meaning (see?  I'm learning too. )  I see now why you're so ecstatic.  Learning the new song is learning righteousness -- when thy judgments are in the earth the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. 

Now that makes total sense.  I apologize if I confused the issue with the NAME of God.  I see now that I was jumping ahead to when those who have overcome learned the song (God's justice), and then go on to judge the nations in righteousness.  (We have to pay attention to all the parts.   I wasn't paying attention to all the parts.  )

Rev. 15:2-4

And I saw what looked like a sea of glass mixed with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and over the number of his name. They held harps given them by God

And they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying,

"Great and amazing are your deeds,

O Lord God the Almighty!

Just and true are your ways,

O King of the nations!

Who will not fear, O Lord,

and glorify your name?

For you alone are holy.

All nations will come

and worship you,

for your righteous acts have been revealed."



Exodus 15

The Song of Moses and Israel

      1Then Moses and the sons of Israel sang this song to the LORD, and said,
         "I will sing to the LORD, for He is highly exalted;
         The horse and its rider He has hurled into the sea.

2"The LORD is my strength and song,
         And He has become my salvation;
         This is my God, and I will praise Him;
         My father's God, and I will extol Him.

3"The LORD is a warrior;
         The LORD is His name.

4"Pharaoh's chariots and his army He has cast into the sea;
         And the choicest of his officers are drowned in the Red Sea.

5"The deeps cover them;
         They went down into the depths like a stone.

6"Your right hand, O LORD, is majestic in power,
         Your right hand, O LORD, shatters the enemy.

7"And in the greatness of Your excellence You overthrow those who rise up against You;
         You send forth Your burning anger, and it consumes them as chaff.

8"At the blast of Your nostrils the waters were piled up,
         The flowing waters stood up like a heap;
         The deeps were congealed in the heart of the sea.

9"The enemy said, 'I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil;
         My desire shall be gratified against them;
         I will draw out my sword, my hand will destroy them.'

10"You blew with Your wind, the sea covered them;
         They sank like lead in the mighty waters.

11"Who is like You among the gods, O LORD?
         Who is like You, majestic in holiness,
         Awesome in praises, working wonders?

12"You stretched out Your right hand,
         The earth swallowed them.

13"In Your lovingkindness You have led the people whom You have redeemed;
         In Your strength You have guided them to Your holy habitation.

14"The peoples have heard, they tremble;
         Anguish has gripped the inhabitants of Philistia.

15"Then the chiefs of Edom were dismayed;
         The leaders of Moab, trembling grips them;
         All the inhabitants of Canaan have melted away.

16"Terror and dread fall upon them;
         By the greatness of Your arm they are motionless as stone;
         Until Your people pass over, O LORD,
         Until the people pass over whom You have purchased.

17"You will bring them and plant them in the mountain of Your inheritance,
         The place, O LORD, which You have made for Your dwelling,
         The sanctuary, O Lord, which Your hands have established.

18"The LORD shall reign forever and ever."


Okay.  That's all.

[the truth]

newgena,
To be able to show you this would mean teaching on Rays site.I dont know if Ray said anything in His papers about the subject to busy to look right now.I will give you this and see if it helps

Of course this with the understanding we know God split the nation to North and South...South was Judea and North was according to 2 Kings 17:24 Babylon, Cuthah, Ava, Hamath, Sepharavaim, which are your 5 husbands; in John 4:16-18 with the woman at the well. In Genesis 48:19 through Ephraim is where we came in which is where God broke out the northern kingdoms. 

Notice in Hosea 1:10(b) that it states "in the place that is at Jacob's well" in that place is in reference to the woman at the well in John 4:16-18, that is why it says in John 4:4 that He (Christ) had to go through Samaria. A couple of other scriptures references are in Hosea 6:4, Hosea 7:8, and Hosea 8:8.Hope this helps...God Bless.

[newgene87]

thank you again Gina. you just revealed even more truths from the scriptures regarding that song. two after my wedding...i'ma have to say, God is blessing me with some truths . so yes, "the inhabitants of the world WILL learn righteousness" according to God's will and obviously the glorious message of the Gospel. in that song of Moses does reveal the salvation of all seeing that He "declares the end from the beginning". Its seems all the MESS of the world is the building block for this glorious "song" to be glorified  . and THANK YOU "the truth".... that really allows me to connect with scripture regarding the israelites. all in all - it corelates to ALL the "redeemed of the earth" and those who are of the Faith of Abraham, the TRUE sons of Abraham, in which "ALL THE NATIONS of the earth shall be blessed".

s.n - can you all imagine a choir of 144,000....singing in harmony? . i can sing and i've sung madrigals (if that's the correct term) in high school ---- 144,000 all in harmony - 36,000 sopranos; 36,000 altos; 36,000 tenors; 36,000 bass -  or sectioned to 6 different parts that's still 24,000 each (yes i love math, you caught me) THAT WOULD BE AN AMAAAZZZINGGG SOUND!!! . again, Praise our Glorious God

[Gina]

Yeah me too!  I love choirs!  I love music  and I love harmonies (that's why I love the orchestra analogy so much that Marques pulled out from Ray's bible-study).  The von trapp FAMILY orchestra.    hehe, that's me!

[Kenneth Clark]

144,000 is a symbol in the book of symbols...i think it represents the church

[newgene87]

144,000 is a symbol in the book of symbols...i think it represents the church

oh i finally get to quote ray here. i guess we can be careful with using "the church". so in the words of our Blessed Ray

"THE" CHURCH VS. "MY" CHURCH

During Jesus' ministry, He spoke of "the" church and "My" church. There already existed "the church" (Matt. 18:17), at the very time that Jesus said He would build "MY CHURCH" (Matt. 16:18). For fifteen centuries God established Israel as a church:

"This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, 'A Prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; Him shall ye hear.' This is HE, that was in the CHURCH in the wilderness with the angel which spoke to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers who received the lively oracles to give unto us: To whom our fathers WOULD NOT OBEY, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt" (Acts 7:37-39).

We could, of course, trace the church back through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, back to Noah, and indeed, back to Adam.

DEFINING "CHURCH"

Just what is a "church?" Strong's Greek Dictionary, #1570. ekklesia, a calling out. (1b) Ekklesia, from ek, "out of," and klesis, "a calling..." So the church is those whom God has CALLED OUT to be His "called out ones," hence, Jesus said, "So the last shall be first, and the first shall be last: for many be called, but few chosen."
(end quote)

so those called-out of THE church, being the "REDEEMED of the earth" (Revelation 14:3). since also, these are those, "purchased by His own blood" (Acts 20:28). "The Church" can really be confused with mess going on here which Paul already forsaw and spoke of in Acts 20:29-30. so i guess, those who are total fellowship with Jesus who "follow the Lamb whereever he goes" (Rev 14:4) are those blessed ones

[Gina]

Yes and it's clear it's speaking of the elect.

[christalfan]

Life [..of a believer, Elect, Chosen, the Church, 144 000] is like playing a violin in public [proclaiming the true Gospel -- song, to ALL] . . . and learning the instrument [ righteousness of God] as one goes on..  This is just totally cool!

line stolen from Gina's footer, edit is mine!

[Gina]

I love your edits!  You nailed it, my friend.  Totally. 

Be sure to look for my upcoming signature: 

Fumbling Towards Ecstasy

[Marky Mark]

You are welcome newgene87, Gina and Jerry. I pray always for the Lords work within.


Peace...Mark