To Vote or Not to Vote??

[newgene87]

alrighty, this is something i did want to ask you all. Seekers of Truth and "seasoned" in life (yes yall old ), but where do most of yall stand on politics? Now, I am only 25, yes young. But once i devoted my Life to seeking the Kingdom of God and Jesus wholeheartedly in my life - i have no interest whatsoever in politics. I mean, i think it's all a show, WWE at it's best: one party versus another party; but behind the curtain, somebody is swaying a side. My parents are democratic i guess, and as a young black man, i feel pressured to be in this mess; but that's how i feel, i feel it's a mess. Should i be in politics? is the "voting" of the next president that vital to my life that i feel he actually has influence and authority to make my life easier?? i mean who's to say this guy would make a utopia and the other guy would make a hell out of america??? like seriously, I take Jesus as King of my life, Lord and Master; i'm a full time Husband and Father and i seek to only lead my family through Christ who strengthens me - so does having credence in a man holding office in the white house make me any better?? Im just annoyed of the pressure.... example, my family throw it in my face, that my ancestors marched for me to have the right to vote and yada yada yada; but i mean no disrespect to my history or whatever; i feel so much like a new creature in Christ - politics just seems dull to me. I am in the Army, so whoever it is, He's gonna be my Commander in Chief anyway. and oh yea, i just read an article showing this is gonna be the first election in 80 years with no military service on either ticket -- i sort of think that's important (). but whatever, Just wanted to share. hopefully my family here can enlighten me.

oh btw Joshua 5:13-14 is my favorite verse regarding politics -

"When Joshua was by Jericho, he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing before him with his drawn sword in his hand. And Joshua went to him and said to him, "Are you for us, or for our adversaries?" And he said, "No; but I am the commander of the army of the LORD. Now I have come." And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped and said to him, "What does my lord say to his servant?"

speaks volumes to me on what side to choose on things

Eugene

[believerchrist100]

A few emails of Ray's on the subject. Simply put, we are not supposed to be entangled in the affairs of this world which includes politics which includes voting:


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1808.0.html

Hello Ray,

I really enjoy your articles, especially those on the subject of Hell. I have two questions:

1. Should "True Christians be involved in Politics and vote ?

2. When "Searching the deepthings of God", is using one's analytical skills and logic a stumbling block, or a god-given help ?

     Thanks for your time.

  Willie


Dear Willie:
No, a true follower of Jesus cannot be involved in politics. Jesus certainly did not take part in any such worldly activities.

As the Scriptures can hold up to analysis and logic, there is nothing wrong in using analysis and logic in studying and/or teaching the Scriptures.
God be with you,
Ray


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,35.0.html


Hallo, Mr.Ray SMITH:

I email you before about trying to get a law to stop the church requirement of the sin of tithing by petitioning for it to the State Rep.   My next move for the no-tithing law is already in the hands of this state's representative again. I had written to the Rep. that tithe money is a steal and therefore the churches are laundering stolen income in the regular income of the church. You see it is not unconstitutional to regulate businesses away from laundering income from other sources. I hope that you as a man of God who cares for the real church of christ as shown by your tithe-paper will be intersted in trying to demostrate to the State Rep in your community that the church is not a business venture but a non-for-profit organization with offerings and sales income.

Thank you for being concern.

Best Regards,
Cesar       



Dear Cesar:
I am an "Ambassador for Christ" (I Cor 5:20). Ambassadors cannot legally take part in the politics of foreign nations.  Jesus never, ever got involved in the operations of the Roman Government over the Jews. We are never taught to "march on Washington," etc. But we are told to COME OUT OF THE WORLD and be separate. "Let the DEAD bury the dead."
God be with you,
Ray

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7290.msg57982.html#msg57982

Ray, should we as believers waste our time voting. If every thing happens according to Gods plan, does it even matter. I haven't voted for a candidate since Reagan. Instead I find myself voting for the lesser of two evils. And in the end we seem to always head down the same path of morale decline and national self destruction. Does my vote even matter. Should I vote for a person simply to keep the more corrupt person from obtaining office. Thanks Billy


Seriously, Billy, do you think that had Jesus lived in a democracy He would have voted for "the lesser of two evils?"
There's your answer.
God be with you,
Ray

Hope this helps clear up a few things.

Patrick

[newgene87]

Rom 13:1  Let every soul be subject to the higher authorities. For there is no authority but of God; the authorities that exist are ordained by God. (KJV)

.....

*****NEWS FLASH****** God is not running a democracy.

As I see it mainstream churches have a belief that they need to pick the best candidate.  Who opposes abortion, who is the most honest, and a thousand other things.  God changes not, and when He appointed authority centuries ago, they weren't always the most Godly of people.  So why do we assume they need to be today? We know God will use evil, (ie Ray's paper on 9/11) so why should we think He won't use it coming from those who rule over us?

My most compelling reason does not have a scripture to back it up.  It's basically me coming to an understanding that God really doesn't need my help.

thank you Abednego. beautifully said. i do remember that first verse; and it's like, whatever is gonna be is gonna be. God is All in All.

and thank you Patrick for pulling those out. i feel as though i've seen those before so thank you. i feel alot better cause Ray made it clear about politics. It wouldve been something to see Jesus speaking out against the Roman government

[darren]

I've been interested in politics for awhile. I know I'm as carnal as they come. Yet, I prayed in the past, in the now and in the future that God the Creator of All things in the universe to guide and teach me first His Will.Then do HisWill and change my human heart to a loving kind spiritual heart. I do vote in the presidential elections.
however, i will not vote this time around. As Ray had put it. Do you think Jesus would have voted for the lesser of two evils. I have to be in this world. Live in this world and die in this world. Ipray to God that He gives me the wisdom and the strength to be "Not" of this world. Carnality what a bitch.

Darren

[Gina]

Public stance on political parties

As the leader of the SCLC, King maintained a policy of not publicly endorsing a U.S. political party or candidate: "I feel someone must remain in the position of non-alignment, so that he can look objectively at both parties and be the conscience of both—not the servant or master of either."[29]

In a 1958 interview, he expressed his view that neither party was perfect, saying, "I don't think the Republican party is a party full of the almighty God nor is the Democratic party. They both have weaknesses ... And I'm not inextricably bound to either party."[30]

King critiqued both parties' performance on promoting racial equality:

    Actually, the Negro has been betrayed by both the Republican and the Democratic party. The Democrats have betrayed him by capitulating to the whims and caprices of the Southern Dixiecrats. The Republicans have betrayed him by capitulating to the blatant hypocrisy of reactionary right wing northern Republicans. And this coalition of southern Dixiecrats and right wing reactionary northern Republicans defeats every bill and every move towards liberal legislation in the area of civil rights.[31]

Personal political advocacy

Although King never publicly supported a political party or candidate for president, in a letter to a civil rights supporter in October 1956 he said that he was undecided as to whether he would vote for the Adlai Stevenson or Dwight Eisenhower, but that "In the past I always voted the Democratic ticket."[32]

In his autobiography, King says that in 1960 he privately voted for Democratic candidate John F. Kennedy: "I felt that Kennedy would make the best president. I never came out with an endorsement. My father did, but I never made one." King adds that he likely would have made an exception to his non-endorsement policy in 1964, saying "Had President Kennedy lived, I would probably have endorsed him in 1964."[33]

( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_King,_Jr. )

I don't vote either.

I don't believe that MLK would have a problem with anyone not voting.  Even he voted privately - and that in and of itself speaks volumes and begs the question.  Why if he came to preach voting (which he did not as we all know), did he vote privately?  Maybe he wasn't aware that the Electoral College is ultimately the one who makes the decision who gets in office (well, at least that's what we're being led to believe).

I voted once.  Never again.  I know too much now.

My grandmother (very Caucasian ) was heavily into politics, always being invited to inaugural balls and just a real crotchety you-know-what (she turned me off to politics).
Of course in the end, none of it mattered to her.

God is no respecter of persons.

You're a smart man.

[arion]

This goes against the 'wisdom' of the church but if God is sovereign in his creation [He is], if God is the one who puts Kings and elected officials into power and then in his timing takes them out of power [He does] then does it really matter who we would vote for?  I was in the military for 15 years and took an oath to support, preserve and protect.  As a believer in Christ and as one who must support the constitution when it doesn't counter Christ's teachings I can't vote for a man/woman who I know will use that constitution like a roll of toilet paper.  Since I know of none who will take their oath seriously I won't be voting for them.  I hear the lessor of two evils argument all the time but as I say back to them I can't vote for any evil....period.

[Kat]

You hear so much about the 'right' to vote. I feel it is my right to turn my back on the mayhem that we call government and reject being any part of it.

Kathy

p.s. That word mayhem was picked deliberately. You will notice I changed the word person below.
may•hem \"ma-'hem, "ma-em\ n 1 : willful and permanent crippling, mutilation, or disfigurement of a person nation 2 : needless or willful damage (Merriam-Webster)

[Dave in Tenn]

As best as I can figure, I've voted my last time already.  To be honest, even if I had not come to believe in the Sovereignty of God, I was sick enough of politics (having been blown around all over the map during my life depending on the last thing I read) already. 

When I stumbled onto B-T, two things I wanted to be 'saved' from were depression and cynicism.  This is strictly ME talking, but I've found that I cannot be 'saved' from these while still immersing myself in politics and listening to media talking-heads.  It started with about 6 years of no television.  Oh, the peace that passes understanding.    

I do want to slip in a reminder, though.  This forum is not exclusively American or western.  There are people in other countries who have a far greater struggle living 'in the world' where God has them than any of us living in democracies, including the USA.  IN THE LONG RUN, we (citizens of democratic countries, with all things considered) tend to get what we deserve.  I'm not sure I can say the same thing about others.     

 

[Joel]

I have never voted. Thought about it and came close a couple times years ago.
Couldn't ever make the steps necessary to get to the poles on election day.
I was happy to hear what Ray said about voting, and feel he was spot on in his views concerning the carnal governments of the world.
I have people in the family, and at work that get wrapped up with the elections and the different candidates. God has his government and it is Spiritual, and I need to be more concerned with that aspect of LIFE.
Jesus Christ is the KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. The Jews voted before Jesus was crucified saying, "We have no king but Caesar."
I've been told that God expects us to vote so he can have the person he wants in office. What a joke.

Jesus said in Matthew 12:25 "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:"

Joel

[Gina]

Hey Gene,

I posted already (tsk tsk) but I feel compelled to post this (btw, great replies everyone!).  This goes hand in hand with what Dave said about getting "what we deserve."

1 Samuel 8
English Standard Version   


Israel Demands a King


1 When Samuel became old, he made his sons judges over Israel.

2 The name of his firstborn son was Joel, and the name of his second, Abijah; they were judges in
   Beersheba.

3 Yet his sons did not walk in his ways but turned aside after gain. They took bribes and perverted
   justice.

4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah

5 and said to him, "Behold, you are old and your sons do not walk in your ways.
   Now appoint for us a king to judge us like all the nations."

6 But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, "Give us a king to judge us." And Samuel
   prayed to the Lord.

7 And the Lord said to Samuel, "Obey the voice of the people in all that they say to you, for
    they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me from being king over them.

8 According to all the deeds that they have done, from the day I brought them up out of Egypt
   even to this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are also doing to you.

9 Now then, obey their voice; only you shall solemnly warn them and show them the ways of
   the king who shall reign over them."



Samuel's Warning Against Kings



10 So Samuel told all the words of the Lord to the people who were asking for a king from him.

11 He said, "These will be the ways of the king who will reign over you: he will take your
    sons and appoint them to his chariots and to be his horsemen and to run before his chariots.

12 And he will appoint for himself commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and some
    to plow his ground and to reap his harvest, and to make his implements of war and the
   equipment of his chariots.

13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers.

14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive orchards and give them
     to his servants.

15  He will take the tenth of your grain and of your vineyards and give it to his officers
     and to his servants.

16 He will take your male servants and female servants and the best of your young mena
    and your donkeys, and put them to his work.

17 He will take the tenth of your flocks, and you shall be his slaves.

18  And in that day you will cry out because of your king [sound familar?], whom you
     have chosen for yourselves, but the Lord will not answer you in that day."




The Lord Grants Israel's Request



19 But the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel. And they said, "No! But there shall be a king over us,

20 that we also may be like all the nations, and that our king may judge us
     and go out before us and fight our battles."

21 And when Samuel had heard all the words of the people, he repeated them in the ears
     of the Lord.

22 And the Lord said to Samuel, "Obey their voice and make them a king." Samuel then said to
     the men of Israel, "Go every man to his city."



And the rest is history.

(Sometimes, wanting is better than having. ~Jacqui, blogger @ the lime)

[eggi]

In Norway we have more than two parties, I don't know how many. Every party had policies I disagreed with, so I voted: blank! I don't believe there is any reason for me to support a party which I can't agree with. Also they change their promises right after the election, and constantly lie in media.

God bless you,
Eirik

[indianabob]

Hey Eirik,
I feel the same about voting.
I think the ballot should have a space marked "none of the above".
If they did that they would get a lot more people to vote their true feelings.
And the elected person would know that they did NOT get a majority or a mandate and perhaps
they would spend more time after the election seeking the views of the electorate.
That is, if they really cared what anyone truly thought....

Indianabob

[levycarneiro]

In Norway we have more than two parties, I don't know how many. Every party had policies I disagreed with, so I voted: blank! I don't believe there is any reason for me to support a party which I can't agree with. Also they change their promises right after the election, and constantly lie in media.

God bless you,
Eirik

Hello Eirik,

in Brazil everyone is obliged to vote. You can type 000 (zero-zero-zero) or something like that, and it's called a "null vote". That vote doesn't count for any candidate or party. We have LOTS of parties. Anyway, you still have to move your skeleton to the proper public school and cast your vote, otherwise there are complications with getting a passport (you must have voted in the previous 2 elections) and maybe other things which I don't know.

Levy

[indianabob]

Sounds like a fair plan.

One question, what does the government do for new residents who speak only German or English?
Do you have multi lingual ballots?

[levycarneiro]

Hello Indiana Bob!

If this question is for me We have computers that show the candidate's face/portrait. You type the candidate's number and then his/her face appears, and then you hit a big green button "CONFIRMA" (Portuguese for "confirm").

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_N7qno7a5_DU/TH7TqaVwtKI/AAAAAAAAP9w/wqpfKG9P6lI/s400/voto+consciente.jpg



God bless
Levy

[gmik]

Remember Ray talking about the bohemian grove mysteries???  Its already been decided....tho really always been decided by God of course.

I still vote...maybe its my generation...I don't know....or just carnality like someone else mentioned somewhere...

[indianabob]

Hi Gena,

Voting is O. K. with me as long as folks don't expect a different result when their candidate is installed in the job. Humans are flawed even when they are true called out Christians. What can we reasonably expect when we elect a regular person who is seeking praise and approbation of his peers the electorate? Our constitution is valid only for a moral people who ALL participate in the affairs of government. Once we delegate our responsibilities to others and become the audience, we have the same problem in politics that we find in the church of babylon. Corruption and self serving.

That's another valid reason for term limits. One term and back home to your regular wage producing job. Sending novices to Washington D. C. is like sending first time criminals to the penitentiary. It is just a graduate school for criminals.

Indiana bob

[Gina]

May I?

I believe the governments would like for us to believe that we are being given some kind of a choice.

If governments like the U.S.  can put people in positions of power in other countries (like Saddam Hussein) , why couldn't the same be true of other countries?

Once I was told in a bible-study group back when Bush was running:  "If more people just voted..."  I said to myself, there is no way -- it's ultimately God who decides who gets in office. 

[ez2u]

If we live by the Spirit let us walk by the Spirit  Gal 5:25  by adopted Dad who knew of this teachings in the 70's  told me  to pray, listen to the Holy Spirit  He didn't always vote but sometime she did as so do I.