Jesus not abolishing the law but fulfilling???

[Topaz]

Well after realizing the General discussion area will be closing and we are to put our question here....that is IF I understood that correctly.  I mistakenly put this question first in the General discussion....so I am now placing it here...hoping it is in the right place....whew!!!   Have I confused anyone yet?
My question was...

I know Ray has probably wrote about this, but I have not run across it and would very much like to know.
An explanation of Jesus not coming to abolish the law to to fulfill. 
I am very confused.
If someone can point me in the right direction I would very much appreciate it.

Thank you for at least reading my confusion and correct me if I am in the wrong place again.......

[rocky]

Well after realizing the General discussion area will be closing and we are to put our question here....that is IF I understood that correctly.  I mistakenly put this question first in the General discussion....so I am now placing it here...hoping it is in the right place....whew!!!   Have I confused anyone yet?
My question was...

I know Ray has probably wrote about this, but I have not run across it and would very much like to know.
An explanation of Jesus not coming to abolish the law to to fulfill. 
I am very confused.
If someone can point me in the right direction I would very much appreciate it.

Thank you for at least reading my confusion and correct me if I am in the wrong place again.......

This is my understanding, to me, the law written in stone for the carnal man results in one thing, the administration of death.  Fleshly man, no matter how hard he tries to follow the law; failes.  Self effort to follow the law always fails. 

The law is good, it is Holy. 

Rom 7:12  Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

The problem is in carnal man, it doesnt' change us; it only shows us our shortcomings.  And it stimulates sin (anything not of faith is sin); so it stimulates increased self effort.  The wages of sin is death.  Death is good, it leads us to giving up on self effort. 

Rom 7:13  Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Rom 7:9  For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Rom 7:10  And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

Rom 7:11  For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.


Christ, fufilled the law completely (not externally by self effort, or carnal effort), but internally by trusting/fatih in the Father.  Internal fufilling of the law is only completed by trust/faith.  Christ lived a life of complete trust/faith in God the father, therefore fufilling the law.

This is to me, why it is the faith of Christ that saves us.  Christ by living in complete faith, never relied on self effort for his righteousness and holiness. 

We are to never rely on self effort either; we have our elder brother to trust and have faith in.  Once self effort leads to death; we can cry out Oh wretched man I am, and turn to the faith of Christ. 

This is why the law is our schoolmaster to lead us to Christ; external effort to do the law, leads to exceeding sin (self effort) and sin's wages is death.  Death is a good place to be; from their trusting in Christ will lift us out of death. 

Hope this makes sense. 

 

[Topaz]

Christ, fufilled the law completely (not externally by self effort, or carnal effort), but internally by trusting/fatih in the Father.  Internal fufilling of the law is only completed by trust/faith.  Christ lived a life of complete trust/faith in God the father, therefore fufilling the law.

Thank you for your response...I thought Jesus also obeyed the ordinances and laws while He was on earth.....is it that He obeyed until all was fulfilled upto and through His resurrection.  In other words, while He was in the flesh, the laws and ordinances were to be obeyed, but AFTER His resurrection the fulfillment occured......??  Therefore as He took on the sins He also took the laws and ordinances?
I think I am confusing myself...
God be with us.....
Topaz

[Topaz]

The law makes us realize we're bad.  Christ shows us another way and God's grace gets us where we need to go.

Sounds like that is the hop, skip and jump of it.
Does that include the eating of clean and unclean meats??
I have heard many discussions regarding that a pig is not to be eaten....yet..I find in Romans 14:20 "For meat destroy not the work of God.  All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man that eateth with offence"
I was under the understanding that the pig WAS unclean to all. But now I beleive that it is only offensive to those that consider it unclean...or am I wrong in thinking that all things God has given us to eat of are cleansed. 
God be with us...
Topaz

[mongoose]

Topaz,  some say pigs are unclean and other's don't.  For me, I follow Paul's guidance on this.  If you feel it is a sin, don't do it (because it doesn't come from faith).  But make up your own mind about this and don't let anyone else judge you about eating or not eating or drinking or not drinking or festivals.  Talk to God and let Him guide you (in everything, but in these things in particular).  Oh, and don't cause someone else to stumble by trying to get them to eat what they think is a sin to eat (which you probably wouldn't do anyway).  Basically, talk to God....get His anwer (make up your mind) and don't worry about it but also don't argue about it.  I personally don't eat pork.....because I don't like the way it tastes  .

Look in some of Paul's letters (Galations for one) and see what he says about these things.  It might clear some stuff up.

mongoose

[rocky]

The law makes us realize we're bad.  Christ shows us another way and God's grace gets us where we need to go.

Sounds like that is the hop, skip and jump of it.
Does that include the eating of clean and unclean meats??
I have heard many discussions regarding that a pig is not to be eaten....yet..I find in Romans 14:20 "For meat destroy not the work of God.  All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man that eateth with offence"
I was under the understanding that the pig WAS unclean to all. But now I beleive that it is only offensive to those that consider it unclean...or am I wrong in thinking that all things God has given us to eat of are cleansed. 
God be with us...
Topaz

Do these verses help??




Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;  


Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;  


Col 2:15 [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.  


Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:  


Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ.  

[Topaz]

Thank all for the replies...they have all given me something to study and ponder.
I personally have always believed all meats were to be taken freely for food. It started becoming a big issue with me when I read so many "other" people discussing how "unclean" it was.
And being a mountain woman who does not hunt and does not buy my meat from a store but I do eat home grown meats. Beef, Pig, Chicken...etc.  I would stop eating thereof IF it was a commandment from God.
It appears to me at this time that since it does NOT offend me or anyone that I am personally around that I am free to eat that of which I choose.  Now if it was to offend someone, I would not eat nor serve it as a meal to guest.
Silly as I may seem....I will not eat of Deer.....only because I have raised too many on a bottle and re-set them free.  But many people in my area are hunters of such and I cry every hunting season.  I could never personally kill any animal.  Therefore at times seem hypocritcal for the eating of animals.
Anyway...Thank You all for your input
God be with us...
Topaz

[all4love]

Matthew 15:10-11
"Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand. What
goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes
out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.


Act 10:10  But he became very hungry and was desiring to eat; but while they [were] preparing [a meal], a trance fell on him,

Act 10:11  and he observes heaven [or, the sky] having been opened, and a certain object like a great sheet descending to him, having been tied at [the] four corners and being lowered on the ground,

Act 10:12  in which were all the four-footed animals of the earth and the wild beasts and the reptiles and the birds of heaven [or, the air].

Act 10:13  And a voice came to him: "Having gotten up, Peter, slaughter and eat!"

Act 10:14  But Peter said, "Most certainly not, Lord! Because never did I eat any[thing] common [fig., ritually impure] or unclean [or, which defiles]."

Act 10:15  And a voice [came] again a second time to him: "What God [has] cleansed, by all means stop calling common [fig., ritually impure]!"

I might be missunderstanding Acts not sure but I think that it is saying that it is ok.  I know that as far as health wise goes Pork is bad for you but I don't think it is wrong to eat in God's eyes.

[Topaz]

Thank you "all4love" for providing the many scriiptures that you did to clarify that even further.
I do realize pig is not a healthy food to eat, but I have not at this time put my body totally into "all healthy" foods.  Yes I know I should, but have not at this time.  Hopefully someday soon I will be able to do that.
Thank you again for the scriptures.

God be with us......

[hillsbororiver]

Rocky wrote of this point earlier in the thread, the following is from Lake of Fire Part XI;


WHAT IS THE PURPOSE FOR THE MOSAIC LAW?

Can boys become men on their mother's milk? Neither can men become spiritually mature on things of childhood. Paul said when he was a child, he thought and acted as a child, but when he became a man, he said he put away childish things. The Christian Church today refuses to put away childish things. Here is the purpose for the Law of Moses in the Church:

"Wherefore the law was [it was not past tense for Paul] our schoolmaster [Gk: tutor or guardian] to BRING US UNTO CHRIST, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come [faith HAS now come] we are NO LONGER under a schoolmaster [the law of Moses]" (Gal. 3:24-25).

How is it that all the educated theologians with all their PhD's can't understand this simple analogy. The law—the law of Moses, was our "schoolmaster." It WAS, it isn't any more. Why not? Because mature adults are no longer children. We have all had schoolmaster in our youth. We were under them, subject to them, disciplined by them, taught by them. I am now 62 years old. Am I still under my grade school teachers? Of course not. Do I, however, try to remember the things I learned from my teacher? Why yes, of course. But as a man I am now subject to higher authorities. A person will never acquire a college degree if he never gets out of grade school.

What happens to those who are so foolish as to think that they should remain forever in grade school under a tutor/schoolmaster?

"Now I say, That the heir [the potential, prospective, heir to the kingdom of God in the first resurrection], as long as he is A CHILD [wants to remain a minor under the Old Covenant Law of Moses] differs NOTHING FROM A SERVANT, though he be lord of all; but is under tutors and governors UNTIL the time appointed of the father" (Gal. 4:1-2).

Do you follow this? An heir to the Kingdom of God, as long as he does not mature, will never inherit his Father's Kingdom, but is in no better position that a "servant" who will never be heir to his master's household! Let them who have ears to hear, HEAR. You cannot mature on mother's milk. The Church furnishes mother's milk to children and corrupts their minds with "the DEPTHS of Satan." We must "come out of her" if we are to be God's people.

You can read all of Ray's paper here; http://bible-truths.com/lake11.html

[Topaz]

Thank you "Hillsbororiver"
Now I can go to #11 of Ray's paper.
I knew he must of wrote on it somewhere, but I did want to find it before I died of old age...LOL
There is so much to read and so little time.
Thanks again......