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[newgene87]

okay. i was doing my nightly handy dandy forum-search for key words and i stumbled upon an old discussion. A person had a question for dennis regarding a statement Ray made in one of his audios. And i stand on that question; Did Ray ever write or expound on the Law (of Moses) being spiritual??

"For we know, that the law (of Moses?) is spiritual..." (Romans 7:14)

the past 4 months i've been really interested in the scriptures, the written Torah; simply for learning and instruction in the word. seeing Paul says, "are you...having the forming of knowledge and truth in the law" (Romans 2:19). But seeing that post, i wonder what Ray actually meant, is the Law of Moses spiritual??? I ask that in view of what the writer in Hebrews 7:16-19 said, calling the law, "the law of a carnal commandment" and "for a setting aside does indeed take place, of a foregoing commandment, by reason of its OWN WEAKNESS and UNPROFITABLENESS, - for THE LAW PERFECTED NOTHING...". sooooooo, if the Law (of Moses) is SPIRITUAL, why is weak and unprofitable? even Paul mentions, "For what was impossible by the law in that it was weak through the flesh..." (Romans 8:3). Any clarifications? expounding? would be lovely accepted. Or i could be overlooking the entire thing. Thank you

Hello,Dennis

I was listening to the audio tape,biblestudy April 07,which ray said he was going
to write about the law of moses,and that the law is spiritual,I guess in more detail.
Did ray ever write on just this subject?
Walt.

Re: Dates To Remember . . . . . . . . . . Biblestudy April 2007
Now I allowed someone in our midst to influence me in a wrong way, because I didn't have time to look at these things. I didn't have time to study every word and every phrase, every sentence, every verse, every doctrine in the Bible, all at the same time in great detail. This is just unfathomable, so I had somebody that we allowed to put some material on our site even. Because I thought some of it was correct, even though I had a couple of problems with some things. I mean the law paper that is no longer up there, I had a problem with that before it was put up and I let it slide, to my own chagrin. Because I mentioned at the time, but you are not covering in here the aspect that the law is spiritual. The law of Moses is spiritual!

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual

It was, ‘no Ray, no that is talking about the spiritual law is spiritual…’ You know I let it slide. I corrected a lot of stuff in that paper and some of that stuff in that paper was mine anyway. That long chart of the Old Testament and the New Testament, the old covenant and the new covenant, the differences, it was several pages of material. But I let that slide.
 
         
« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 11:11:01 AM by Kat »       

THE LAW OF MOSES


But when I write about the law one day, I will have to do a paper on the law and trust me you are going to see Romans 7:14. “…we know that the law…” What law? It’s mentioned about ten times in that chapter… “the law of Moses…” “the law of Moses…” “the law of Moses…” “For we know that the law is spiritual…” Oh but we are not talking about the law of Moses? Oh yes we are, it didn’t changes gears there in mid stream.

oh oh oh, if this was answered in another discussion; since its difficult to search through this forum, someone can just send me that link  . orrrrr inputs can be brought upon, ya kno, below here . thanks again family

Eugene

[mharrell08]

FYI: Lake of Fire Part 16D3: (http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D3.htm). Look for the header 'WHAT DOES THE SERMON ON THE MOUNT REALLY TEACH US?'

[newgene87]

that you for that direction! 

Now a question regarding a statemement Ray said, "Lets be clear on one thing before we enter this study. You will find the phrase, New Covenant, New Testament, and New Commandment in the Greek Scriptures, But you will not find the phrase "New LAW" anywhere. There are "new commandments" regarding that law, the but law is the same, as it is "spiritual" and therefore is not "temporal" (2Co 4:18) -end quote

so, it's apparent we wont find a new law, but we do find a "change" of the law, or "removing" of the law...

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law..." (Hebrews 7:12), wouldnt that make the law "temporal" being that it was to be "changed", "removed"??

but thank you

[Gina]

14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests.

15 And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek,

16 who has become such [according to the likeness of Mechizedek] NOT on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life.

17      For it is attested of Him,
         “YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER
         ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK.”

18 For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness

19 (for the [physical] Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

20 And inasmuch as it was not without an oath

21(for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him, “THE LORD HAS SWORN AND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND, ‘YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER’”);

22 so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.

__________________

So on the one hand, there is a new covenant but not a new law.   But there is a change in the law.  It's like what?  I thought he just said there was no new law!

But then I just realized -- a change in law does not make a new [another] law; it's simply changed.  There's a difference. 

And the change in the law is in the way that it must be kept and applied -- no longer physically / outwardly but inwardly.  It would only "change" or be "different" to them in their eyes seeing how it never occurred to the Hebrew that the law must be written on their hearts and minds, if it was to ever be correctly understood, which would necessarily lead to having an HONEST relationship with God and man. 

There would be no more of this trying to keep the law externally in order to be right with God, because God doesn't save us on account of how good we are.  Besides, we can't make ourselves be good; though, we can try by "painting the face" but sooner or later the paint [mask] comes off.

God purposely made them keep the law physically because He wants to show people how spiritually weak we are when WE try to obey Him.   Besides, God knows that keeping physical commands, even if they could be kept only makes a person go "Wow!  I am the bees knees ya'll!!"  [Ref. Saul]

But then God knocked him off his high horse.  Whoopsie daisy!   Pride goes before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall.

That's when Paul realized he could keep the law outwardly and STILL not be right with God! 

That's how he understood that his change of heart towards the Christians came not from anything good in himself but from God.  [Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then also you can do good who are accustomed to do evil. Jer. 13:23 ]

But the most fascinating thing is when you remember that God always desired mercy, He never desired sacrifice to make ourselves right with Him.   [ Ref. Abraham and taking his son to the altar.]

Who wants to bet Abraham welcomed the new covenant?  Jesus even said:  Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad. John 8:56
 
I hope that helps a little.  I hold out hope that someone else will come in and make it clearer for you if I've made a mess of things.

[newgene87]

oh no, you made it clear. it was like i was seeing it thru a certain type of lens...took them off, and now its like, "ohhhhhh". I was seeing that a little off (okay...way off) but i get it now. The Law IS Spiritual, no doubt. Thanks Gina!

[Gina]

I won't kid, I'm learning right along with ya! You're welcome.  Glad I could help.

[Kat]

Hi Eugene,

We were under the law only for it "to bring us unto Christ."

Gal. 3:24-25 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.


http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D3.htm --------------

The Old letter of the law was glorious, but the newly applied Spirit of the law does "much more exceed in glory" (II Cor. 3:9). The Old Covenant law was how God's people were judged under Moses: the New Covenant law is how God's chosen Elect will be judged under Jesus.


http://bible-truths.com/tithing.html ----------------

Obedience to the Law of Moses, the Sacrifices and the many Ordinances was to bring physical prosperity, safety from enemies, healthy children, and a long life in the land, followed by DEATH. Malachi brings us from obedience to physical laws in the land, all the way down to the return of Messiah in fiery judgment upon mankind. God never really did want animal sacrifices, but the sacrifices of a "broken and contrite heart and spirit."
v

As Christians are not under the Law of Moses in this New Testament dispensation, accordingly, the end-time fulfillment of Malachi does not pertain to the Law of Moses, which is the oldness of the letter rather the newness of the spirit. Just as there is no more sacrificing of animals at the Temple, likewise there is no tithing of animals at the Temple—nor is there tithing of any kind. Christians are not under the Law of Moses, nor a twisted, modified version of it.

"For the law of the SPIRIT of LIFE in Christ Jesus [this is not the Law of Moses] has made me FREE FROM THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH" (Rom. 8:2).

The law of the letter "engraven in stone tablets" assuredly was a "dispensation of death and condemnation" (II Cor. 3:4-11).
v

JESUS CAME TO FULFILL THE LAW, NOT TO RELIVE THE LAW

Christians believe that Jesus came to FULFILL the Law of Moses by RELIVING the law of Moses in His own personal life. He assuredly did not. This is an entire study of itself, however, I want to prove to you from the Scriptures that Jesus did not concern Himself with Tithes and Taxes, and restrictions of the Law of Moses.

THE TEMPLE TAX

Not only did Jesus not tithe, because He was a carpenter and carpenters were not obligated to tithe, but neither did He pay the Temple tax, which was commanded by the Law of Moses for all men in Israel to pay annually. Of the 613 laws of Moses, this is Law # 404:
v

The point is this: Jesus did not pay temple tax because Jesus is the King of the kingdom. And if the children are free, certainly the King Himself is free.
v

If we are to believe that "fulfilling the law" of Moses can only be accomplished by living, teaching and enforcing the law of Moses, then something is wrong with that theory because Jesus obviously did NOT carry out many commands of the law of Moses in His own life!

The theologians have debased the New Covenant as being nothing more than the Old Covenant, with a few added twists. Jesus "fulfilled the law" not by adding a few spiritual twists to it, but by keeping a MUCH HIGHER SPIRITUAL LAW that actually contradicted much of the letter of Moses’ Law.

One doesn’t need a physical law of the letter chiseled in stone, to "keep the sabbath" when he has entered into "God’s SPIRITUAL REST" in his heart.

One doesn’t need a physical law of the letter to "swear by His name" when in his heart his desire is to "swear NOT at all."

One doesn’t need a physical law chiseled in stone telling him "thou shalt not commit adultery" when in his heart he no longer "even looks on a woman to lust after her."

One doesn’t need a physical law telling him to "HATE his enemies" when now in his very heart, he "LOVES his enemies."

For you newcomers to the world of theology, LOVE is lot different than just putting a spiritual twist on HATE. Not swearing at all is more than putting a spiritual twist on the commandment TO SWEAR. Am I going too fast for anyone?


http://bible-truths.com/lake6.html -----------------------

"For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory [a representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters] for these are the TWO COVENANTS; the one from the mount Sinai, which genders to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar IS [now a metaphor—‘is like, in certain ways’] mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to JERUSALEM which NOW IS [at the time Paul wrote this and continues to this day] and is in BONDAGE with her children. But Jerusalem which is ABOVE ["The HEAVENLY JERUSALEM" Heb. 12:22] is free, which is THE MOTHER OF US ALL" (Gal. 4:22-26).

What amazing Scriptures these are. The New Covenant Church of the Living God has a MOTHER—HEAVENLY JERUSALEM ABOVE. And the giant Old Covenant Whore Church also has a mother—EARTHLY JERUSALEM BELOW. The New is FREE, whereas the Old is in BONDAGE. But how can I say that the Old Covenant Church is "huge?" Aren’t there only a relatively few orthodox Jews around the world who keep the "Old" Covenant? No, there are BILLIONS of people who keep the "Old" Covenant around the world. There are almost no Christians that understand and keep the "New" Covenant. To the world of Christendom, the Old Covenant IS THE NEW COVENANT! The New Covenant is merely keeping the Old Covenant, BETTER! That’s right. To most, the New Covenant consists of keeping the Old Covenant, better. They say that they now keep the Old Covenant "in the spirit." Just how, pray tell, does one keep the "physical" in the "spirit?"

Such a doctrine is utter unscriptural contradictory nonsense. You cannot keep the "physical" in the "spirit." THERE IS NO SPIRIT IN THE PHYSICAL, SO HOW COULD ONE ‘KEEP IT’ IF IT DOESN’T EXIST? We are all born with a physical [carnal] mind. It is possible to keep physical [carnal] laws with a physical carnal mind (Paul did it to near perfection when he was Saul!). But one CANNOT keep God’s spiritual laws with a physical carnal mind!

"Because the carnal [natural physical] mind is enmity [deep seated HATRED] AGAINST God; for it is NOT subject to the [spiritual] law of God, neither indeed can be" (Rom. 8:7).

"For to be carnally minded is DEATH; but to be spiritually minded is LIFE and peace" (Rom. 8:6).

Let’s be sure that we are perfectly clear on these Scriptural facts:

Paul said that there ARE RIGHT NOW, TWO Jerusalem's in existence.

One answers to the New Covenant, which is HEAVENLY JERUSALEM ABOVE.

One answers to the Old Covenant, which is EARTHLY JERUSALEM IN ISRAEL.

If you think that you can spiritually keep the physical laws of Moses, then your mother is the Old Covenant which answers to "Jerusalem which now is—IN BONDAGE."

But if you are keeping God’s spiritual laws through the spirit of God, then your mother is "Heavenly Jerusalem ABOVE which is—FREE."
------------------------------------------------------

mery, peace and love
Kat

[the truth]

Hello,NewGene

I see it as a renewed covenant.I have a 70-Chevelle and its renewed ...restored...But its not new....but its like knew.Kind of like a un-rung bell once you ring it once its not ever going to be un-rung again....it wont be new again.But it can be like new.

one other thing:Like Ray teaches...Saul/Paul knew the commandments and followed them to a tee.But its when he got to the end of the commandments he got sifted...Do not covet!He knew he may have never sleep with another mans wife. But inwardly maybe he did.So its not the the Law that is Spiritual. its the work that happens on the inside when we break the law that is Spiritual.

[onelovedread]

Gina's quote: "But then God knocked him off his high horse.  Whoopsie daisy!   Pride goes before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall."

Is there a scripture that states Saul (Paul) was filled with pride? Is being filled with zeal the same thing? Was he not convinced that he was doing the right thing? And is it not God who orchestrated the whole scenario?

"13 For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. 14 I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles...." Galatians 1

I am not saying that Paul may not have been proud. Had I the following credentials, I might be tempted to be filled with pride:

"If someone else thinks they have reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless.  Philippians 3


However, I'm not sure that this would be the best example of "Pride goes before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall." Was Paul destroyed? Did he have a "haughty spirit"?

Would that also pass the 12 Laws test?

[Gina]

What amazing Scriptures these are. The New Covenant Church of the Living God has a MOTHER—HEAVENLY JERUSALEM ABOVE. And the giant Old Covenant Whore Church also has a mother—EARTHLY JERUSALEM BELOW. The New is FREE, whereas the Old is in BONDAGE. But how can I say that the Old Covenant Church is "huge?" Aren’t there only a relatively few orthodox Jews around the world who keep the "Old" Covenant? No, there are BILLIONS of people who keep the "Old" Covenant around the world. There are almost no Christians that understand and keep the "New" Covenant. To the world of Christendom, the Old Covenant IS THE NEW COVENANT! The New Covenant is merely keeping the Old Covenant, BETTER! That’s right. To most, the New Covenant consists of keeping the Old Covenant, better. They say that they now keep the Old Covenant "in the spirit." Just how, pray tell, does one keep the "physical" in the "spirit?"

Such a doctrine is utter unscriptural contradictory nonsense. You cannot keep the "physical" in the "spirit." THERE IS NO SPIRIT IN THE PHYSICAL, SO HOW COULD ONE ‘KEEP IT’ IF IT DOESN’T EXIST? We are all born with a physical [carnal] mind. It is possible to keep physical [carnal] laws with a physical carnal mind (Paul did it to near perfection when he was Saul!). But one CANNOT keep God’s spiritual laws with a physical carnal mind!

"Because the carnal [natural physical] mind is enmity [deep seated HATRED] AGAINST God; for it is NOT subject to the [spiritual] law of God, neither indeed can be" (Rom. 8:7).

"For to be carnally minded is DEATH; but to be spiritually minded is LIFE and peace" (Rom. 8:6).

Let’s be sure that we are perfectly clear on these Scriptural facts:

Paul said that there ARE RIGHT NOW, TWO Jerusalem's in existence.

One answers to the New Covenant, which is HEAVENLY JERUSALEM ABOVE.

One answers to the Old Covenant, which is EARTHLY JERUSALEM IN ISRAEL.

If you think that you can spiritually keep the physical laws of Moses, then your mother is the Old Covenant which answers to "Jerusalem which now is—IN BONDAGE."

But if you are keeping God’s spiritual laws through the spirit of God, then your mother is "Heavenly Jerusalem ABOVE which is—FREE."

That's what I was trying to say, but I'm pretty sure it came out sounding as if we could apply physical laws in a spiritual fashion.  Thanks Kat.

The new covenant comes with an oath by Jesus where God writes His spiritual laws on our hearts, and only God can keep His own oath to write them there; we can't keep that oath for Him.  That's why it's a new covenant.  Did I get that right?

[Gina]

John, Paul thought that he knew God BETTER and that he was BETTER than the Christians.  That's a haughty spirit.  And he was "lording" it over them.  It was all vanity on his part.  He understood later that he was doing it all in ignorance, but it stemmed from pride.

[Gina]

And it wasn't Paul who was destroyed; it was Saul, the Pharisee, who was destroyed.

[onelovedread]

Ok,  so you're saying that pride can be "committed" in ignorance. I never thought of it like that before. I always thought that pride (haughtiness, being puffed up) was something we consciously practiced (not in the sense of like being proud of your daughter).

If you put it like that, I can accept it in that sense.

But I was thinking of a haughty stuck up atttiude that Saul would have actually assumed.

On your last comment, I wish John the creature before being called by God, were totally destroyed.

I wonder what my new name would be. I figure if Saul became Paul (4 alphabetical letters back) then John would become 'Gohn.' 

[Dave in Tenn]

Yes, the Law is Spiritual.  Paul said we KNOW that the law is Spiritual.  Problem is, not everyone knows what 'Spiritual' is.  In the quotes above, Ray explains to a great extent what makes the Law spiritual.  Understanding that goes a long way towards understanding what 'spiritual' itself is. 

[the truth]

Dave
YES, Of course the law is Spiritual.And as well all of the Holy Scriptures....MY quote:.............. "So its not the the Law that is Spiritual"Was A complete blunder...trying to get my point across and got excited.Sorry about that.I am surprised someone didn't call me on that quote earlier...lol...
As you shared Dave The Material listed above is a great explanation of the the law.This part is what really I was trying to voice in my post.From Ray......

 
To most, the New Covenant consists of keeping the Old Covenant, better. They say that they now keep the Old Covenant "in the spirit." Just how, pray tell, does one keep the "physical" in the "spirit?"

Such a doctrine is utter unscriptural contradictory nonsense. You cannot keep the "physical" in the "spirit." THERE IS NO SPIRIT IN THE PHYSICAL, SO HOW COULD ONE ‘KEEP IT’ IF IT DOESN’T EXIST? We are all born with a physical [carnal] mind. It is possible to keep physical [carnal] laws with a physical carnal mind (Paul did it to near perfection when he was Saul!). But one CANNOT keep God’s spiritual laws with a physical carnal mind!

"Because the carnal [natural physical] mind is enmity [deep seated HATRED] AGAINST God; for it is NOT subject to the [spiritual] law of God, neither indeed can be" (Rom. 8:7).

"For to be carnally minded is DEATH; but to be spiritually minded is LIFE and peace" (Rom. 8:6]

Thanks Dave for bringing my attention to my quote...sorry about that .Guess that's one of the reasons your a moderator huh?God Bless!

[Joel]

Jesus showed how the law is Spiritual to my satisfaction.

Matthew 22:37-40
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and the great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Joel

[Gina]

John, it's as if you want me to be a smarty pants!  When I'm called in to account for my reply, I will simply say it's all your fault.   

It's like this: 

For the creation was subjected to VANITY [ some versions say "frustration"] not by its own choice [not willingly], but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.   (Rom. 8:20, 21)

What is vanity?  Glad you asked.

van•i•ty*ˈvæn ɪ ti(n.; adj.)(pl.)-ties

    (n.) excessive pride in oneself or one's appearance; character or quality of being vain.

As a pharisee Paul would have acted no differently toward the Christians as did those pharisees/keepers of the law in Jesus' day (John 15:18 "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.")  Pharisees were filled to the brim with pride! 

The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or even like this tax collector. (Luke 18:11)  ("I'm sooooo wonderful I can hardly stand myself.")

They weren't making a conscious effort to be that way.  As you said it was all by design.

People who are filled with pride and vanity don't know that they're prideful or vain.  They are clueless.  They aren't even considering whether or not they're being that way for that would take an act of humility; and that word isn't in a pharisees vocabulary; besides that would require they examine themselves as intently as they do others and they can't do that because they're too preoccupied with looking at the faults in others.

People filled with excessive pride don't have to make any conscious effort to be that way; as if they're struggling against remaining humble.  ha!  We're subject to vanity (pride)-- not a whole lot we can do about that.

But a prideful person is very apparent to those with eyes that do see.

I've never had to force myself to look down my nose at others as if I thought they were worthy of better treatment or thoughtful consideration re their circumstances.  It's not like I had nothing better to do with my time than to be a jerk, no.  I'm carnal -- it comes quite naturally.    It's like blinking.  It's just too easy.  I used to be total pro at being a prude but I'm happy to report I'm getting a little rusty in that department, but I still need a lot of work.

Do we think Hitler wasn't filled with pride (in addition to hatred) when it came to how he felt about the Jews? 

He just knew (knew!) he was better than the Jews, etc.  Do we think the KKK are making a conscious effort to think they're better than those they torture and murder?  No, they really believe in their hearts (albeit wrongly) that they're better. 

Anyway, that's the way I see what Paul, as Saul, was like, but I'm open to correction.

Tah tah

[eggi]

Hi everyone,

What do you suppose Paul meant when he said that he was as "touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless"?

Did he actually mean that he kept the Law without fault? Obviously not.
I've been told today that this refers to the Oral Law that the Pharisees had created, and not to the Torah. So when Paul says that a righteousness has been made known APART from the law the law in question is in fact the ORAL law, and not the Torah.

I believe that it refers to the fact that the LAW IS SPIRITUAL. Paul kept the physical commandments perfectly (blamelessly), but the SPIRITUAL commandments he did not keep blamelessly. But how can you show this scripturally?

Romans 7:7 I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Romans 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Romans 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

God bless you,
Eirik

PS. I was also told that the Pharisees never actually kept the Law of Moses/Torah, and only parts of the ORAL law which were not to heavy. This is supposedly supported by historical facts. Have anyone of you heard about this theory, and know what facts are being referred to?

[Gina]

Hi everyone,

What do you suppose Paul meant when he said that he was as "touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless"?

Did he actually mean that he kept the Law without fault? Obviously not.
I've been told today that this refers to the Oral Law that the Pharisees had created, and not to the Torah. So when Paul says that a righteousness has been made known APART from the law the law in question is in fact the ORAL law, and not the Torah.

I believe that it refers to the fact that the LAW IS SPIRITUAL. Paul kept the physical commandments perfectly (blamelessly), but the SPIRITUAL commandments he did not keep blamelessly. But how can you show this scripturally?

Romans 7:7 I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Romans 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Romans 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

God bless you,
Eirik

PS. I was also told that the Pharisees never actually kept the Law of Moses/Torah, and only parts of the ORAL law which were not to heavy. This is supposedly supported by historical facts. Have anyone of you heard about this theory, and know what facts are being referred to?

Well yeah, actually, and here's just one example:

Matt: 23:23  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.



Thank you for that, Eirik.

[the truth]

Hello,
PS. I was also told that the Pharisees never actually kept the Law of Moses/Torah, and only parts of the ORAL law which were not to heavy. This is supposedly supported by historical facts. Have anyone of you heard about this theory, and know what facts are being referred to?





I have not heard that?So I could not answer that.Seems like a pharisee to me though.They do it on every corner today.

But it seems to me whatever they did believe and didn't do.They knew enough of the Torah to know what they should be doing.








Joh 8:3  And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
Joh 8:4  They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
Joh 8:5  Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
Joh 8:6  This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
Joh 8:7  So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
Joh 8:8  And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
Joh 8:9  And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
Joh 8:10  When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

Verse -5-"Now Moses in the law/Torah"..JThey played Hypocrite at least that they knew and performed it.

Notice verse -7.."He who without sin among you......."They were breaking the law/Torah by not bringing two or three witness to the trial if you will.So, whatever their motivation in life was ...That Torah was doing its job!

And as they didnt know that they were testing to see if the Lamb was without blemish.Before it was Sacrificed.One day it will be revealved to all.Jerry