> General Discussions
The Law is Spiritual??
Joel:
Jesus showed how the law is Spiritual to my satisfaction.
Matthew 22:37-40
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and the great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Joel
Gina:
John, it's as if you want me to be a smarty pants! When I'm called in to account for my reply, I will simply say it's all your fault. :) ;)
It's like this:
For the creation was subjected to VANITY [ some versions say "frustration"] not by its own choice [not willingly], but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. (Rom. 8:20, 21)
What is vanity? Glad you asked.
van•i•ty*ˈvæn ɪ ti(n.; adj.)(pl.)-ties
(n.) excessive pride in oneself or one's appearance; character or quality of being vain.
As a pharisee Paul would have acted no differently toward the Christians as did those pharisees/keepers of the law in Jesus' day (John 15:18 "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.") Pharisees were filled to the brim with pride!
The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or even like this tax collector. (Luke 18:11) ("I'm sooooo wonderful I can hardly stand myself.")
They weren't making a conscious effort to be that way. As you said it was all by design.
People who are filled with pride and vanity don't know that they're prideful or vain. They are clueless. They aren't even considering whether or not they're being that way for that would take an act of humility; and that word isn't in a pharisees vocabulary; besides that would require they examine themselves as intently as they do others and they can't do that because they're too preoccupied with looking at the faults in others.
People filled with excessive pride don't have to make any conscious effort to be that way; as if they're struggling against remaining humble. ha! We're subject to vanity (pride)-- not a whole lot we can do about that.
But a prideful person is very apparent to those with eyes that do see.
I've never had to force myself to look down my nose at others as if I thought they were worthy of better treatment or thoughtful consideration re their circumstances. It's not like I had nothing better to do with my time than to be a jerk, no. I'm carnal -- it comes quite naturally. ;) It's like blinking. It's just too easy. I used to be total pro at being a prude but I'm happy to report I'm getting a little rusty in that department, but I still need a lot of work.
Do we think Hitler wasn't filled with pride (in addition to hatred) when it came to how he felt about the Jews?
He just knew (knew!) he was better than the Jews, etc. Do we think the KKK are making a conscious effort to think they're better than those they torture and murder? No, they really believe in their hearts (albeit wrongly) that they're better.
Anyway, that's the way I see what Paul, as Saul, was like, but I'm open to correction.
Tah tah
eggi:
Hi everyone,
What do you suppose Paul meant when he said that he was as "touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless"?
Did he actually mean that he kept the Law without fault? Obviously not.
I've been told today that this refers to the Oral Law that the Pharisees had created, and not to the Torah. So when Paul says that a righteousness has been made known APART from the law the law in question is in fact the ORAL law, and not the Torah.
I believe that it refers to the fact that the LAW IS SPIRITUAL. Paul kept the physical commandments perfectly (blamelessly), but the SPIRITUAL commandments he did not keep blamelessly. But how can you show this scripturally?
Romans 7:7 I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Romans 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Romans 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
God bless you,
Eirik
PS. I was also told that the Pharisees never actually kept the Law of Moses/Torah, and only parts of the ORAL law which were not to heavy. This is supposedly supported by historical facts. Have anyone of you heard about this theory, and know what facts are being referred to?
Gina:
--- Quote from: eggi on July 22, 2012, 11:40:47 AM ---Hi everyone,
What do you suppose Paul meant when he said that he was as "touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless"?
Did he actually mean that he kept the Law without fault? Obviously not.
I've been told today that this refers to the Oral Law that the Pharisees had created, and not to the Torah. So when Paul says that a righteousness has been made known APART from the law the law in question is in fact the ORAL law, and not the Torah.
I believe that it refers to the fact that the LAW IS SPIRITUAL. Paul kept the physical commandments perfectly (blamelessly), but the SPIRITUAL commandments he did not keep blamelessly. But how can you show this scripturally?
Romans 7:7 I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Romans 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Romans 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
God bless you,
Eirik
PS. I was also told that the Pharisees never actually kept the Law of Moses/Torah, and only parts of the ORAL law which were not to heavy. This is supposedly supported by historical facts. Have anyone of you heard about this theory, and know what facts are being referred to?
--- End quote ---
Well yeah, actually, and here's just one example:
Matt: 23:23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
Thank you for that, Eirik.
the truth:
Hello,
PS. I was also told that the Pharisees never actually kept the Law of Moses/Torah, and only parts of the ORAL law which were not to heavy. This is supposedly supported by historical facts. Have anyone of you heard about this theory, and know what facts are being referred to?
I have not heard that?So I could not answer that.Seems like a pharisee to me though.They do it on every corner today.
But it seems to me whatever they did believe and didn't do.They knew enough of the Torah to know what they should be doing.
Joh 8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
Joh 8:4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
Joh 8:5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
Joh 8:6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
Joh 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
Joh 8:8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
Joh 8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
Joh 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
Verse -5-"Now Moses in the law/Torah"..JThey played Hypocrite at least that they knew and performed it.
Notice verse -7.."He who without sin among you......."They were breaking the law/Torah by not bringing two or three witness to the trial if you will.So, whatever their motivation in life was ...That Torah was doing its job!
And as they didnt know that they were testing to see if the Lamb was without blemish.Before it was Sacrificed.One day it will be revealved to all.Jerry
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