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[joeshrink]

I read snipets of the link you provided. Interesting arguments. Honestly, a little over my head though. I think though that perhaps some of my conclusions are similar, but have come at them from a different path.

As far as the scripture you quoted "1Co 1:20  Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 1Co 3:19  For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness." I am not sure what you are getting at. I think this scripture is testament to the transcendence of God. Because he is not bound by finite rules or the emperical method he can trump anything so to speak in his ultimate wisdom. He is not bound by the limited knowledge that earthly philosophers or scientists are. Am I understanding you correctly here?

[jerreye]

Definitely we should give OURSELVES over to Jesus in love, but I don't believe everyone can do this, because not everyone is pre-determrined to.

I have heard this before. I guess you should feel very blessed that you are chosen. Too bad though for those who are not.

Hi Joe, I completely understand where you are with such an idea that some are chosen....and "too bad for those who are not". The only way I get my head around that one is when I read and then reread:

Romans 8:19-21
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

In a nutshell, the whole creation will be made perfect and delivered from the bondage of corruption THROUGH and BY the chosen "Sons of God" (the elect of God). God first chooses a little group, in order to save the larger group (all men). I see this throughout the scriptures. God chose a tiny little people called Israel. He gave Abraham a promise that through his seed (which is Christ along with His body/elect), ALL FAMILIES of the earth shall be blessed.

I also see this truth in nature. Look at a little seed. A tiny seed planted in the ground can eventually turn into a huge oak tree! This little fact of science is God's way of showing mankind how He works. God likes to use a FEW to bless the MANY. This is how I see it

Cheers,
Jeremy

[joeshrink]

Hey Jeremy,

Thanks for the scripture- I looked it up and looked at the conext from which you quote and once again it does not seem to have anything to do with pre-determination. If anything the flavor of the context seems to say that salvation is through righteousness - because those who do not have the spirit are not sons of God and the path to gaining life is by putimg to death the misdeeds of the body. See Romans chptr 8: 1-17

I have a problem with quoting scripture one verse at a time. If I remember my Bible history class correctly dividing scripture into verse and chapter is a relatively new phenomenon- and the verse and chapter divisions are under continual scrutiny by most theologians and is believed by many to convolute the original intention of the author. Another issue I have about single verse quotation is that in that format we can really make scripture say whatever we want it to.

That being said I can see your logic- In a way the process of our salvation began with God's promise to Abraham- a man God apparently chose- and has had a ripple effect from there to here.

I wonder if in our efforts to simplify we have not made things more complex- could it be that both freewill and predetermination are at work in the same system and they perhaps are not as paradoxical as we think?

Blessings and Realness!!!

[jerreye]

Hey Jeremy,

Thanks for the scripture- I looked it up and looked at the conext from which you quote and once again it does not seem to have anything to do with pre-determination.


--------------------------------------
Actually I didn't use the verse to show predetermination. If you have any doubt that the elect were predetermined then perhaps this will help:

Eph 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

There is no doublt (if you believe the scriptures) that the "children of Jesus" were predetermined beforehand, since that is the meaning of "predestinated".
--------------------------------------


If anything the flavor of the context seems to say that salvation is through righteousness - because those who do not have the spirit are not sons of God and the path to gaining life is by putimg to death the misdeeds of the body. See Romans chptr 8: 1-17


But this can only be done if God GIVES you His spirit. With MEN, salvation is impossible (you cannot save yourself with your own righteousness...God calls our righteousness filthy rags), but with God, ALL is possible - Mark 19:26



I have a problem with quoting scripture one verse at a time. If I remember my Bible history class correctly dividing scripture into verse and chapter is a relatively new phenomenon- and the verse and chapter divisions are under continual scrutiny by most theologians and is believed by many to convolute the original intention of the author. Another issue I have about single verse quotation is that in that format we can really make scripture say whatever we want it to.


I totally agree. We cannot use one scripture to try and prove any single doctrine. There are MANY scriptural witnesses to the fact that God will save all men (1 Tim 2:4-6, 1 Tim 4:10, Romans 5_18-19, etc etc). If you want many witnesses to these facts, you really should read the content of bibletruths.com. It does a much better job then I do

One more point: We read in Isaiah that we are to study the Word "line by line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little". One is not enough, but two or three IS enough.

Mt 18:16
But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. (this is a spiritual PRINCIPLE)


That being said I can see your logic- In a way the process of our salvation began with God's promise to Abraham- a man God apparently chose- and has had a ripple effect from there to here.

I wonder if in our efforts to simplify we have not made things more complex- could it be that both freewill and predetermination are at work in the same system and they perhaps are not as paradoxical as we think?


I honestly don't see how "free-will" can be at work together, seemlessly, with "predetermination". Both concepts are completely opposed to eachother. If you DO have free-will, then you COULD in fact determine yourself whether or not you will be "chosen" or not.

Cheers,
Jeremy


Blessings and Realness!!![/color]

[orion77]

God's judgment brings righteousness.  We are all judged, whether we like it or not, and His judgment will bring righteousness.


(1Jo 4:17)  By this, love has been perfected with us, that we have confidence in the day of judgment, that as He is, we are also in this world.


We can be confident, because we are not as those of the world, because we love God, our neighbor, and forgive our enemies.  The whole chapter of 1John, chapter 4, is some great knowledge there.

God bless,

Gary

[joeshrink]

Hey Jeremy,

Just wanted to thank you for your perspective- but I have to disagree that predeterminism and free will cannot occur in the same system. I have found that most paradoxes can and do have simultaneous actions and that it is only the human mind that seems to place things in paradoxical relationship.

A quick example:

Light and Darkness or if you like heat and cold. Both are defined by an absence of the other, yet there is no place in this world where light and heat absolutely do not exist (only in theory mind you)- so one can say they both exists concurently- perhaps in varying degrees but yet there is no place that is completely dark- or absolutely cold, just as there is no place that contains pure light or absolute heat.

No doubt God has transcended things and continually "predetermines" outcomes, yet we do have choices and a will that is "free"- do either exist in absolute forms? I think not and so I suppose that they exist in varying degrees- a seeming paradox working concurently. 

Now- I don't want you to get the idea that I am completely sold on this model, only that I have found absolutes to be very uncommon in this world- and so I try not to think in them- and always take caution when I hear others speaking in absolutes. Besides "only Syths deal in absolutes" One of the Jedi nights said that in Starwars- I just can't remember which one . The lesson though is that using absolute thinking inevitably leads to distruction.

[lauraathome2005]

" Besides "only Syths deal in absolutes" One of the Jedi nights said that in Starwars- I just can't remember which one"

That would be Obi-Wan Kenobi