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[John from Kentucky]

Will we be sexual beings in the Kingdom of God?

I do not know.  Why don't I know?  Because God has not shown me two or three scriptures that clearly answer the question presented.

Are you a scriptural scholar?  Do you know the answer to the above question?

If you are, please present the two scriptures to back up your answer.

Please understand, do not give me one scripture.  The scriptures teach us, multiple times, that there must be at least two witnesses to establish the truth of a matter.

Also, please do not present your editorial statements or comments.  They are not scripture.  With two scriptures, the Spirit of God will give understanding of a spiritual truth.

   Now, to quote Ray, I will hold my breath until I see the two scriptures................................

[Kat]

Hi John,

We know the Scripture where Jesus answered how a person will become after the resurrection "in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in Heaven." Well Matthew, Mark and Luke bare witness to this, that is 3 witnesses.

Mat 22:29  Jesus answered and said to them, You err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God.
v. 30  For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in Heaven.

Mark 12:25  For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but they are as the angels in Heaven.

Luke 20:35  but they who shall be counted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[John from Kentucky]

Hi Kat,

   No cigar.  I'm still holding my breathe.

I agree with those scriptures you quoted.  They prove that there will not be marriage among resurrected spiritual beings.

But those scriptures say nothing about sex.  Marriage is a noun.  Sex is a noun.  But they don't mean the same thing.  We have to pay close attention to all the words.

I know you are aware of Ray's article on marriage.  He brought out that the scriptural definition of marriage concerned that it was a covenant relationship, that it concerned the ceremony of marriage, and also especially a wedding feast.  Love or sex was not a requisite element of a scriptural marriage.

John

[Kat]

John, no there will not be marriage or sexual activity among the elect, because they will be married to Christ!

Rev 19:7  Let us be glad and rejoice and we will give glory to Him. For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has prepared herself.

The Elect are married to Christ at the resurrection, all of our devotion will be to God from then on. If any were in a physical marriage, that is dissolved at death and so at resurrection they belong to God and any sexual activity with another person would be fornication. So there's no place for physical sexuality, which would be fornication, for those in the kingdom are the bride/married to Christ. Of course there is much said in the Scripture about how fornication (both spiritual and physical) is wrong.

1Co 6:13  "Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food"--and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is not meant for sexual immorality (fornication), but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[the truth]

Hello,

Kat with all do respect to your comment:I going to use it only to get my thought across.I am thankful that I am sure you wont be offended by it or that I am trying to attack you.Because I totally respect yours and everyone elses opinon here on the forum.

So regarding the "sons of god," we have established many times on this forum and Ray also clearly showed that these were just men, but were called such because they knew and obeyed the true God.

I hope this is not like Joe Paterno statue were this is the standard so that settles it.I have plenty of Scriptures that makes ... Me.. believe who the Sons of God are.

I am not saying this is your way of thinking or this is what you meant.Just MY own thought.I can throw this scriptures out there.

Job 38:7  When the morningH1242 starsH3556 sangH7442 together,H3162 and allH3605 the sonsH1121 of GodH430 shouted for joy? Was this the "Sons OF SETH"?

Gen 6:2  That the sonsH1121 of GodH430 sawH7200 (H853) the daughtersH1323 of menH120 thatH3588 theyH2007 were fair;H2896 and they tookH3947 them wivesH802 of allH4480 H3605 whichH834 they chose.H977..Is this the "Sons of Seth'?

H430
אלהים
'ĕlôhîym
el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) grea

So ,I just want to say..That there is a lot of Scripture that I can give to make a "case" if you will.But here is the facts:

1. Cant teach on Forum.
2. Many people seem to have already established what they believe and thats the way they do things.
3. Why try to give a "case" when you have know the cards are stacked?
a.If you try thats teaching your out.
b.If you challenge your either need to read Rays teaching again or its a "myth".
c.Or the very worst one...You can see clearly of a matter which is only a opinon because even though you give Scripture you some how didnt see it the right way?

So,Just to make the record straight I am so thankful for what" "God"... did through His vessel Ray Smith.And some may say well if you dont like it truth than why are you here?
Which is a logical question.In which I would say .....were Am I to go?To the church on every corner?

So thanks for listening to me ramble God Bless.

[Craig]

So ,I just want to say..That there is a lot of Scripture that I can give to make a "case" if you will.But here is the facts:

Do you agree with any of the teaching that Ray espoused? If you answer yes, then why do you want to debate things that either goes against what Ray taught or bring in new teachings?

1. Cant teach on Forum.

You agreed to this rule when joining the forum, there are many posts explaining why this rule is in effect


2. Many people seem to have already established what they believe and thats the way they do things.

Sure people here can believe whatever they want.


3. Why try to give a "case" when you have know the cards are stacked?

Why are they stacked? You knew the rules when you joined but now want to ignore them ?

a.If you try thats teaching your out.

You are not out, but you may asked to not to teach or have your posts removed.

b.If you challenge your either need to read Rays teaching again or its a "myth".

If you are here to challenge then you probably won't feel welcome.  I for one don't think I would ever call your beliefs a "myth" I may not agree but anyone on this forum is free to believe whatever they want.


c.Or the very worst one...You can see clearly of a matter which is only a opinon because even though you give Scripture you some how didnt see it the right way?

Again, we are not here to debate. And we are not here to change your mind. Why do you want to debate?

So,Just to make the record straight I am so thankful for what" "God"... did through His vessel Ray Smith.And some may say well if you dont like it truth than why are you here?

I would never ask why you are here, but I would ask why do you want to debate something that you don't agree with rather than growing in what we can agree with? There are hundreds if not thousands of bible based forums and websites that will let you debate and sharpen your beliefs until you die, but that is not the purpose of our forum


Which is a logical question.In which I would say .....were Am I to go?To the church on every corner?

I hope you can stay here, I hope you can grow with the teachings that are here and I hope you can continue on your journey with your other questions by your own studies or study with others of like mind by PM's, emails or start your own forum and website.

Craig


 

[Kat]

Hi Jerry,

According to E-Sword there are 11 places in which the phrase "sons of God" is found in the Bible. Job has 3 and I believe it can be determined that all the places outside of Job is referring to humans. Now the Scripture that you referred to in Job is speaking of a time when these "sons of God" are rejoicing at the creation.

Job 38:7  When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

That had to be before people were created on earth, so we can safely presume that it was angels. Here is where Ray's speaks on this.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html --------

It says, “In a beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”  But then we read something over in Job 38.

Job 38:1  Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
v. 2  Who is this that darkens counsel By words without knowledge?
v. 3  Gird up now thy loins like a man; For I will demand of thee, and declare you unto Me.
v. 4  Where was you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, it to Me if you have understanding.
v. 5  Who determined the measures thereof, if you know? Or who stretched the line upon it?
v. 6  Whereupon were the foundations thereof fastened? Or who laid the corner-stone thereof,
v. 7  When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Whoops, wait a minute, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth…”  And this is the beginning of things?  Apparently not.  What was the first created, the heaven or the earth?  The heavens... and the earth.  So when we come to the earth, the heavens are already created.  And when He creates the earth, low and behold we have the morning stars shouting for joy.  Where did they come from, if this is in the beginning? 

Alright, first of all when it says morning stars, this is the breaking of day, the dawn.  So what is the breaking of day or dawn?  That’s when the earth moves and the sun appears to go up and come down.  The whole thing is working!  Everything is already working, the earth is turning and now these sons of the dawn, of this turning earth, are shouting for joy and singing. 

But we learn in Job 1, that these sons of God presented themselves to Him and Satan came among them.  Remember what Satan was saying about Job, and God said, well you can do anything you want, but spare his life and so on.  These are the angelic beings, we’re not told where they are created in Genesis.  But now we know.  They had to be created between the heavens and the earth.  So by the time the earth was created, they are already here.  Now we got the proof. 

So He created the heavens and He creates the earth, and then God had to probably say, ‘alright turn it on.’  ‘Turn it, spin it.’  Okay now we got day and night.  ‘Now push it, push it around the sun.’  Ok now we have the seasons.  The days and nights, and seasons, it’s all starting to work.  And the sons of God are shouting for joy and singing.
--------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[the truth]

Thanks Craig!
I never want to debate what Ray has taught here only discuss.I realize that through pm we can talk through the teachings of Rays.Just because I don't see everything Ray has taught as Gospel doesn't mean I am trying to debate anything.If I pose a question does that equal debate?IF I am at your house I will play by your rules.I have no problem with that.I guess in some ways its like the church on every corner it breaks your heart to see them content in their teachings that's all.So thanks for your time Craig and I appreciate your kindness in the matter.

[the truth]

Thanks Kat!Your a Jewell!!!will send a response

[Dave in Tenn]

Don't let your heart be broken for me.  There's not a single area of my life or my understanding that hasn't been affected by what's on BT.  I don't see everything the way I saw things (or sometimes imagined things) when I first came.  There has been change and growth, but it's been change and growth INTO, not away from, what I've learned since coming here. 

Just speaking for myself, but I haven't encountered ANY other teaching which does anything other than draw me away from the joy I experienced those first few weeks or tried to get me off on some wild-turkey chase down some meaningless theological rabbit-hole.

The more we study (and LIVE), the more 'true' truth becomes.  The Bible is a big book and others have taken a different way in and come to many of the same conclusions.  But nobody I've encountered has been so careful with the Word and working through the 'apparent' contradictions in Scripture and the Spiritual contradictions between the Churches and the Word of God.  The way Ray 'comes in' is exactly the way I needed.  Still is, still do. 

This is not a church.  It's a web-forum.  If it was a different type of web-forum, I wouldn't be typing this message today because I would NEVER have joined it.

So no pity for me, please.  I can't say any of the above for any church I've ever attended on any street-corner...including the internet.

[Dave in Tenn]

This is neither 'official' nor complete, but here's what I think of when I think of someone 'teaching'.

He or she is making a conscious effort to get someone else to follow a train of thought to get to a conclusion. 

In fundamental terms, is Ray under that understanding a 'teacher'?  Yes he is, imo.

The obligation of a teacher is to spend the time and energy necessary to teach.  The obligation of his/her student is to spend the time and energy necessary to follow that train of thought to its conclusion--whether or not the student ultimately understands or agrees with the conclusion.

I don't know how many 'pages' are on B-T.  Certainly many hundreds...probably more than a thousand with all the transcripts, emails, etc.  Clearly Ray spend the time and energy necessary.

What about my part as a 'student'?  At the very least, I've put in the time and energy necessary to follow his train of thought.  I'm unapologetic in saying that I agree with and find not just scripturally accurate but spiritually compelling about 98% of his 'mini-conclusions' and 100% of his major conclusions--depending on how one defines 'mini' and 'major'.     I define them for myself.  (I can't say that about every forum post...far from it).  Of the 100%, in terms of importance, I knew about 10% before I got here.  In terms of background scripture, I knew about 70%.  Still, everything hangs together just fine even minus 2%.     I'm pretty much teaching myself at this point.  And NOBODY can live my life for me.  That's really where we learn.

Comes a time, I think, when 'teachers' (those who make a conscious effort to to get someone else to follow a train of thought to reach a conclusion) need to pick their venue.  A web-forum--especially THIS web-forum--is not well-designed to 'teach' but works pretty well in helping people learn.  It's WAY too much to ask readers to jump off one train of thought and invest the effort to board and ride another one.  It's especially so when the 'teacher' hasn't done, or is (for whatever reason) unable to do, quite what Ray has.

1.  Taught 'us' who are already 'here'.
2.  Answered thousands of questions about his train of thought.

Do we really want dozens of trains of thought answering 1000's of questions on the forum?  God help us.  It's confusing enough as it is, at times.   

I reckon if anybody wants to risk the scriptural warnings concerning 'teachers', they need to risk finding a suitable place to take them.  The rules don't say 'stop teaching', just 'take it elsewhere'.

I hope nobody takes this as swinging the hammer too hard.             

             

   

[Gina]

I hope nobody takes this as swinging the hammer too hard.

Just wanted to say you're fine by me.  I'm grateful for all your gentle reminders. 

[the truth]

Dave, We will find out who the heros are when we get there.And it not up to you if... I...OR WHO..I..feel pity for ever!
Penn State had a hero TO DAVE!