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Author Topic: are there any discussions on why the "fall"was allowed  (Read 18854 times)

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Ian 155

  • Guest
Re: are there any discussions on why the "fall"was allowed
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2012, 05:45:13 AM »

 


"For starters, can you or I or anyone NOT give place to the devil, of their own free will? NO! LOL ~ ;D "

OK

Paul stated I have run the race I'm on my way to the podium, he also mentions his trials,all be they outward experiences,[2 cor 11]

2Ti 4:6  My life is being given as an offering for God. The time has come for me to leave this life here.[and take on His way of life] ?
 
2Ti 4:7  I have fought the good fight. I have finished the race. I have served the Lord faithfully.    [he was'nt guessing]

2Ti 4:8  Now, a prize is waiting for me--the crown that will show I am right with God. The Lord, the judge who judges rightly, will give it to me on that Day. Yes, he will give it to me and to everyone else who is eagerly looking forward to his coming.

Now for me who is still being dragged ...and have the Holy Spirit

Give the Devil NO Foothold/place, based on the word ... Resist comes to mind - we are unable to do this outside of our Lord yes, but we are able ? [more than conquerors]

I'm Not talking about false pious humility Oh woe to me this great sinner,I can't stop,must be Gods will etc, we know this,
 
Eve's instruction, do not look ,touch even think about that fruit / My instructions ,If at 1st you don't succeed ... that is until DUE time,present frustration is there as a thorn

Can we keep excusing ourselves by using select scripture, we have instructions and God is preventing us from obeying ? [Never]

Obedience is better than laying our lives down,by the same token laying ones life down is also obedience

Kris-is ??

now im all over the place
« Last Edit: August 03, 2012, 08:01:53 AM by Ian 155 »
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space.ace.jase

  • Guest
Re: are there any discussions on why the "fall"was allowed
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2012, 07:15:42 AM »

Sounds a lot like myself here Dave - frustrated that from my perspective Im never ever gonna be perfect or at least there seems so much work to do due to the humoungous pile of trash thats gotta be dealt with ...everyone else seems to be hunky dory goood students and here am I just fallin and crawlin.

Trust me Ian I am falling and crawling right along side you, taking each day as it comes.

It is true that this it is a long and difficult journey we must take but every journey is started with a single step. Don't be too hard on yourself- this isn't a 500m sprint it's a 42KM marathon. Rest in the fact that God has said in his word that HE WILL make us into his image, I will pray for you friend.

"being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." Phil 1:6



God Bless,
Jase
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Ian 155

  • Guest
Re: are there any discussions on why the "fall"was allowed
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2012, 08:18:31 AM »

We to impatient ? ya think

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Gina

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Re: are there any discussions on why the "fall"was allowed
« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2012, 11:42:40 AM »

I don't think you're too impatient, Ian, not from what you've shared with us.
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: are there any discussions on why the "fall"was allowed
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2012, 03:50:20 AM »

I want to change my mind.  Is that OK?   ??? 

Here's what God said to the woman.

Gen 3:16  Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

The 'thorns and thistles' were either for the man or for them both.  Don't ask me, I'm the worst bible-scholar I know (not knowing any preachers any more, other than by name.)  But specifically to the woman, that's what He said.

That makes more sense to me, and more aptly describes my life, even though I am a man.  Go figure.

 

 
« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 04:06:15 AM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Gina

  • Guest
Re: are there any discussions on why the "fall"was allowed
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2012, 04:08:07 AM »


 ;D ROFL...Hey Ian, I love that you don't let up!

Eph 4:27  Neither give place to the devil.

By most replys,Gods Will, it seems is for us to do/listen to, these instructions listed above or does God allow for incompetence without judgement 

I underlined Allow especially for you Arc :)) strong verse that ...thanks

For starters, can you or I or anyone NOT give place to the devil, of their own free will? NO! LOL ~ ;D

You want to stop sinning and the more you try and the more you clean out your house, the more devils move in! LOL....It is a lesson in humility! lol.

GOD CAUSES EVIL IN THE CITY

Let’s take a close look at that last Scripture in our list:

“…shall there be evil [Heb: ra—‘bad, evil’] in a city, and the Lord has not done it? (Amos 3:6)

There’s the question; what’s the answer? The answer from all Christendom is “Yes.” “Yes” there shall be all kinds of evil in a city, and the Lord has not done it. In fact, according to their teaching, the Lord does no evil in any city, ever. World famous teacher/preacher/theologian/author, Billy Graham said before a packed house in the National Cathedral, that GOD DOES    NOT CREATE EVIL.  But what saith the Scriptures (Amos 3:4-6):

“Can two walk together, except they be agreed?"

Answer: NO!

“Will a lion roar in the forest, when he has not prey?"

Answer: NO!

“Will a young lion cry out of his den, if he have taken nothing?"

Answer: NO!

“Can a bird fall in a snare upon the earth, where no gin [baited trap] is for him?"

Answer: NO!

“Shall one take up a snare [shall a snare spring up] from the earth, and have taken [caught] nothing at all?"

Answer: NO!

“Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid?"

Answer: NO!

“Shall there be EVIL in a city and the LORD HAS NOT DONE IT?"

Answer: NO!

The Answer is “NO”!

I am now speaking to the mature only. This information is too heavy, too hard, too overwhelming for the carnal-minded person.   Have you ever wondered just where it is that the proverbial “rubber meets the road?” Well, right here is where the rubber meets the road. If you don’t accept; if you cannot accept, if you will not accept the truth of all these double-witness Scriptures presented above, then you will never understand God’s plan of salvation for the human race.

Seven times in Amos 3 God asks us a question, and SEVEN TIMES THE ANSWER IS “NO”! NO, there shall not be EVIL in a city [any city—all cities] unless THE LORD HAS DONE IT! The truth of this Scripture (along with hundreds and hundreds like it) is so powerful, so absolutely earth-shattering, that the mere fact of me quoting it and suggesting that it is a true statement, will evoke hate mail from far and wide. 

http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html

Thanks for the reminder and reply here, Deb. :-)

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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: are there any discussions on why the "fall"was allowed
« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2012, 05:56:07 AM »



You're always welcome G. ~  8)
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eagle

  • Guest
Re: are there any discussions on why the "fall"was allowed
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2012, 07:34:34 AM »

Members,

Was the allowed and successful temptation of Adam and Eve in the Garden a stereotype of what we go thru every day - the more we succumb to deceit the more pain the more harder this life is [thorns and thistles]- that is until we are perfected

ian

Hi Ian. The way I see it, is that the tree of knowledge of good and evil is
The Law.
I will present what I see as spiritual matches in the old and new Testament:
 And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put(free will? NO!!) the man whom he had formed.
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold( under sin.
We also have to notice, that it is a garden eastward in Eden.
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet
And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked.
and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons,(own works)
So there it is, man takes the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil
and looks at himself and sees, that he is naked (unrighteous). but check this out:

Luke 24:30  And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he(Jesus) took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them. And their eyes were opened, and they knew him

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith



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eagle

  • Guest
Re: are there any discussions on why the "fall"was allowed
« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2012, 08:58:16 AM »

Members,

Was the allowed and successful temptation of Adam and Eve in the Garden a stereotype of what we go thru every day - the more we succumb to deceit the more pain the more harder this life is [thorns and thistles]- that is until we are perfected

ian

Hi again Ian. I forgot to adress the thorns and thistles, so here it is:
Matt 7:15-16 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles

So the thorns and thistles are false prophets.
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Gina

  • Guest
Re: are there any discussions on why the "fall"was allowed
« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2012, 01:59:32 PM »

Quote
Hi again Ian. I forgot to adress the thorns and thistles, so here it is:
Matt 7:15-16 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles

So the thorns and thistles are false prophets.

I can kinda see that, Eagle. :)  What you said is very interesting to me.

See, I remember how Ray said that everything on the earth came out of the earth:

Listen, everything there is on the earth, came out of the earth.  Everything!  Everything on the earth came out of the earth
( forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=9130.0 )

WE CAME OUT OF THE EARTH!

I don't know if this will make any sense to anyone but me but what the heck - lets go!

. . .

Genesis 1:11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so.

Hebrews 6:

1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

2 of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.

3 And this we will do, if God permits.

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

7 For ground [WE COME FROM THE GROUND/EARTH] that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;

8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.


1 Corinthians 3

11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,

13 each man’s work will become evident [their fruit will become evident; you'll know [ourselves?] them by the fruit]; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work.

14 If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.

15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.


----------------------------------------------
« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 02:01:46 PM by Gina »
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eagle

  • Guest
Re: are there any discussions on why the "fall"was allowed
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2012, 03:51:01 PM »

Quote
8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
Good one Gina. Corresponds with what I said, that the thistles and thorns are false prophets, because it makes me think of Proverbs 23:7 "as a man thinketh, so is he" Thorns and thistles make thorns and thistles. It also reminds me of:
Matt 23:15  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.





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Gina

  • Guest
Re: are there any discussions on why the "fall"was allowed
« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2012, 04:21:32 PM »

Yep. That makes a ton of sense.  Thank you!

Quote
8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
Good one Gina. Corresponds with what I said, that the thistles and thorns are false prophets, because it makes me think of Proverbs 23:7 "as a man thinketh, so is he" Thorns and thistles make thorns and thistles. It also reminds me of:
Matt 23:15  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.






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eagle

  • Guest
Re: are there any discussions on why the "fall"was allowed
« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2012, 05:59:38 PM »

By the way, I love when new questions are posted, It makes me study God`s Word. Just saw new awesome things regarding :

Gen 3:24  So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Wanna hear it? Okay, you all may know this, but this is new to me. Here is How I see it now:
The flaming sword is not the Word of God. The word "flaming" is translated from the hebrew Lahat,which is only used twice in the Old Testament.
The other place it is used is in:
Exd 7:11  Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments

Enchantments (Lahat) means "to use occult and magical arts". Has the Word of God anything to do with magicians and enchantments? Certainly NOT!! (I´m imitating Ray here :))
The word that is translated sword comes from the hebrew word chereb,
which already there smells a lot like the word Cherubims, and does mean sword. Chereb is derived from the word Charab, which means: to be waste, to lay waste, make desolate....
The word that is translated Cherubims comes from the hebrew word
Keruwb which according to Strongs means: of uncertain derivation; a cherub or imaginary figure.
"which turned every way". In hebrew it reads "the one turning/overturning herself"
"and he placed at the east...". In hebrew it says" and he is causing to tabernacle..."

So who is this woman caused to tabernacle,that is turning herself into a
keeper of the way of the tree of life??

I believe Jesus gives the answer:

 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in


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Ian 155

  • Guest
Re: are there any discussions on why the "fall"was allowed
« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2012, 01:46:45 PM »

All vert helpfull to me thanks,

I found this to add
Rom 7:18  For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.

100 % Eagle, gets you studying
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Gina

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Re: are there any discussions on why the "fall"was allowed
« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2012, 02:21:27 PM »

Eagle, I almost missed your last post.  That makes so much sense.   Thank you again! 
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eagle

  • Guest
Re: are there any discussions on why the "fall"was allowed
« Reply #35 on: August 05, 2012, 03:34:26 PM »

Thank you Ian and Gina for your kind response.
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Marky Mark

  • Guest
Re: are there any discussions on why the "fall"was allowed
« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2012, 12:21:55 PM »

Quote
By the way, I love when new questions are posted, It makes me study God`s Word. Just saw new awesome things regarding :

Gen 3:24  So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Wanna hear it? Okay, you all may know this, but this is new to me. Here is How I see it now:
The flaming sword is not the Word of God. The word "flaming" is translated from the hebrew Lahat,which is only used twice in the Old Testament.
The other place it is used is in:
Exd 7:11  Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments

Enchantments (Lahat) means "to use occult and magical arts". Has the Word of God anything to do with magicians and enchantments? Certainly NOT!! (I´m imitating Ray here
The word that is translated sword comes from the hebrew word chereb,
which already there smells a lot like the word Cherubims, and does mean sword. Chereb is derived from the word Charab, which means: to be waste, to lay waste, make desolate....
The word that is translated Cherubims comes from the hebrew word
Keruwb which according to Strongs means: of uncertain derivation; a cherub or imaginary figure.
"which turned every way". In hebrew it reads "the one turning/overturning herself"
"and he placed at the east...". In hebrew it says" and he is causing to tabernacle..."

So who is this woman caused to tabernacle,that is turning herself into a
keeper of the way of the tree of life??

I believe Jesus gives the answer:

 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in


Hello eagle.Here are a few of Rays comments on using Strongs as a way of understanding things of the Spirit.


HOW WE GOT THE BIBLE 

You say, ‘but Ray it says image and I looked that up in Strong’s Concordance and it means like a statue.’
Of course that’s what it means. Jesus Christ said you should cut off your hands too. This is your hand and a knife is something you use to cut it off. He said to do that. But that is not what He meant.
You say, ‘well then why did He say it?’ He said it so that those to whom it was given would understand exactly what He meant and those that think everything is literal, physical and statues, would not understand it.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6840.msg54571.html#msg54571
It is not as simple as looking up words in Strong's Concordance to understand the finer meaning of Scriptures.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6291.msg50803.html#msg50803
 It is USAGE that determines the meaning of words. I have explained this several times in my writings, but you apparently have not gotten that far as yet.
There is credence to almost all the examples given in Strong's Dictionaries (but not all, however, and that is where teachers come in).

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4226.msg32193.html#msg32193
Dear Justin:
You cannot learn the true meaning of such words as "ad, olam, aion, aionios," etc. by reading a commentary or lexicon, or concordance like Strong's. Dr. Strong defines "aion" as = "age" AND "eternity."
When the Christians (who have doctrines to defend) write dictionaries and commentaries, they often lie concerning the meaning of words that go against their false teachings. It takes a real teacher to point out these gross errors.

That's like defining "minute" as "hour" AND "century." It's nonsense. If all one had to do to learn the truth of these words was to look them up in a dictionary, I wouldn't need to even have a web site. You need to read and study (for a couple of hundred hours, at least) my paper: "Is EVERLASTING Scriptural?" You have to see how these words are USED, and have been USED, in Scripture, histories, etc. I do not, for example, teach the truth concerning the damnable Christian doctrine of hell, by simply consulting Strong's dictionaries or any other dictionaries. Dictionaries can be a starting point, but it involves a whole lot more than that.




Peace...Mark


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eagle

  • Guest
Re: are there any discussions on why the "fall"was allowed
« Reply #37 on: August 06, 2012, 02:48:29 PM »

Hello Mark

I can see from your profile, that you´re a guy, so am I, then meet me mano a mano, instead of your cowardly insinuations where you use Ray´s
writings, even making your own underlining in Ray´s writings. I am not a teacher, and sure don´t want to be, that is why I use the phrase "This is how I see it". People are more than welcome to agree,disagree,like or dislike, or better yet: prove me wrong or right. Some of the few posts, I have posted have taken me hours and hours of study and prayer with the  hope, that it will bless maybe one or two. Your snakelike attempt to "rebuke" me failed. And if you want to answer to this, don´t send a personal message. Meet me on this board.

In love (albeit tough :) )
Eagle
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Marky Mark

  • Guest
Re: are there any discussions on why the "fall"was allowed
« Reply #38 on: August 06, 2012, 05:21:12 PM »

eagle,the flaming sword is Jesus Christ.

If fire is judgement and the sword is Gods Word then by Scriptural definition the flaming sword is Jesus,and not what Mr.Strong in his unscriptural definition describes in your post eagle. Calling the flaming sword an enchantment or imaginary figure is by Scriptual definition... wrong.

 
Some more of Rays teaching on the subject,if you don't mind.

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D3.htm
The word "fire" is used with reference to Judgment many times in Scripture:
"Gehenna fire," "salted with fire," "furnace of fire," "unquenchable fire," "everlasting fire," "burn by fire," "baptism by fire," "coals of fire," "flaming fire," "eternal fire," "consuming fire."


http://bible-truths.com/fools.htm
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword" (Matt. 10:34).

Anyone offended by this statement of our Lord? Isn’t our Lord "The Prince of Peace?" Jesus did not come to bring armies of armed men to do battle on this earth, but that is the literal meaning of His statement. We know that by the sword Jesus had reference to God’s Word, but those who heard Him make this statement didn’t know that. The force of His speech by doing so is undeniable. Many years later we are given the following verse of Scripture which teaches us what Jesus really meant by "a sword."

"For THE WORD OF GOD is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any TWO-EDGED SWORD, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart" (Heb. 4:12).



Now to your slander eagle.


Quote
Hello Mark

I can see from your profile, that you´re a guy, so am I, then meet me mano a mano, instead of your cowardly insinuations where you use Ray´s
writings, even making your own underlining in Ray´s writings.


Considering that this site is an inpouring of concern based on the teachings of one L. Ray Smith,and most people come here for that very reason,that is,to learn the truths of God based on the teachings of one L. Ray Smith of bible-truths.com reputation, how then, pray tell, do you expect to discuss Rays teachings without quoting him at times when his teachings are exactly why this forum even exists? Either you can come to see and understand what this forum is based on,or you cant.


Quote
I am not a teacher, and sure don´t want to be, that is why I use the phrase "This is how I see it". People are more than welcome to agree,disagree,like or dislike, or better yet: prove me wrong or right.

It isn't whether someone can prove you right or wrong, but rather, do we come to an understanding consensus based on Scripture and Rays spiritual insight.You do not have to agree with anything that I post,or Ray for that matter,but your false understanding of Scripture concerning the flaming sword is a bit much.Have you even read any of Rays material?


Quote
Some of the few posts, I have posted have taken me hours and hours of study and prayer with the hope, that it will bless maybe one or two. Your snakelike attempt to "rebuke" me failed. And if you want to answer to this, don´t send a personal message. Meet me on this board.


May I ask how me posting a few of Rays answers on the proper use of the Strong's concordance makes me out to be a rebuking snake? If you have a problem with what I posted my friend, then from what I see,you have a problem with what Ray teaches and not with me.But,let the record show, if I did not fully agree with what Ray stated in those few responses, we would not even be having this discussion...


Quote
In love (albeit tough  )
Eagle



In His tough love...Mark
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: are there any discussions on why the "fall"was allowed
« Reply #39 on: August 06, 2012, 05:24:52 PM »


Hi eagle,

Well as you said, "to agree,disagree,like or dislike,or better yet: prove me wrong or right" in a post... So that is true, when you present a post on this forum you have to be ready to accept any of those critical responces. So why do you come back with such venom in your responce to what you already said you knew (and welcomed) that you might get? To accuse someone of being "snakelike" falls in the category of name calling and is not allowed.

When you see "new awesome things," rejoice that the Lord has revealed something to you. But something 'new' that has not been covered in Ray's material should not be brought here.

Just a reminder.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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