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Author Topic: Col-2-13-17  (Read 9925 times)

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the truth

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Col-2-13-17
« on: August 12, 2012, 06:59:09 PM »

Hello,.....Was this the Mosaic law or the" Oral law"? Was unable to find were Ray might have taught on this.Find a few post on it but it never touched on my question.

Col 2:13  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14  Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15  And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16  Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17  Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 07:01:12 PM by the truth »
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newgene87

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Re: Col-2-13-17
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2012, 08:10:03 PM »

I will put my 2 cents in. For the most part, this is the Mosaic Law. Written in the Torah is this...

"And thou shalt not go aside from any of the words which I command thee this day, to the right hand, or to the left, to go after other gods to serve them. But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee (Deut 28:14-15).

Paul to the Ephesians, said this was "the law of commandments in ordinances..." (Eph 2:15) All this was contained in the Mosaic Law. Then Moses writes this vital principle...

Deu 29:19  And it come to pass, when he heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I walk in the imagination of mine heart, to add drunkenness to thirst:
Deu 29:20  The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.
Deu 29:21  And the LORD shall separate him unto evil out of all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the covenant that are written in this book of the law:

This may be written towards the Jewish nation but Paul did not excuse the Gentiles out of this, but declares..."..the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Rom 2:15  Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

So because of this law, there were judgments and curses which followed and all those curses are listed in Deut 28:16 and on. It was "contrary to us" for we could not keep the whole law. If we stumble in one, we are guilty of ALL. But Christ blotted out these against us, redeemed us from the curse of the law; and we are COMPLETE in Christ (Col 2:10). Truly it's the Mosaic Law, but in Christ, we are a new creation. maybe that helps

Eugene
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Gina

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Re: Col-2-13-17
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2012, 08:43:38 PM »

Hello,.....Was this the Mosaic law or the" Oral law"? Was unable to find were Ray might have taught on this.Find a few post on it but it never touched on my question.

Col 2:13  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you ALL trespasses;
Col 2:14  Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us which was contrary to us,,  and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15  And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16  Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17  Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Good question.  Interesting topic.  I don't recall Ray speaking about "oral" laws in depth.  There may be someone else here who does.

I ask a favor though:  If we're going to go there, could we first establish the difference between the Mosaic law and the oral law?    Reason why is, I don't see how "oral" (man-made?) laws could possibly be "shadows of things to come."

Thanks. :)

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the truth

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Re: Col-2-13-17
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2012, 09:08:26 PM »

Hello newgene...Hope all is well with you and family!Thanks for your response!

Do you say this because of what you been taught Eugene?Or what you believe that Col-2-15-17 is saying?Exspecially when we consider ..

Mat 5:17  Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20  For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Thanks again Eugene for your response.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 09:57:35 PM by the truth »
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the truth

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Re: Col-2-13-17
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2012, 09:41:29 PM »

Hello Gina

your question:don't see how "oral" (man-made?) laws could possibly be "shadows of things to come."

I think as you stated the difference is "Oral "being Man made laws not Gods.

Your question:laws could possibly be "shadows of things to come

that's a huge questions which takes a lot of explaining trust me..Which I have already learned every one here must seek on there own.How can these things new moon ,sabbaths,etc be a shadow of things to come?

Pro 7:20 He took a pouch of silver in his hand, And he shall come back to his home only with the day of full moon.

Luk 24:44  And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Luk 24:45  Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scripture.



Gina,I thank you for your response and of course you don't have to respond.Because I may have not given you a clear answer to your question. I totally respect that.I have given you some of those answers in a pm in times past.Its already been established some of my thought on this subject in view as how... I....see this "New Covenant" term.See past post.At least you see this as a  "interesting" topic.Jerry....God Bless Gina.

Also:Col 2:20  Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col 2:21  (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22  Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Col 2:23  Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.....would you say this is the Mosaic law?
« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 10:03:29 PM by the truth »
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newgene87

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Re: Col-2-13-17
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2012, 10:01:11 PM »

Hello newgene...Hope all is well with you and family!Thanks for your response!

Do you say this because of what you been taught Eugene?Or what you believe that Col-2-15-17 is saying?Exspecially when we consider ..

Mat 5:17  Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20  For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Thanks again Eugene for your response.

I wasnt taught that, but i was attempting to match a witness with scripture. And look at that verse: "...I am come not to destroy, or loosen down or dissolve; but to FILL FULL the law. He came to fill the meaning of the Law. Hebrews says of the Law, "...a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Heb 9:10  Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. Truly, Jesus REFORMED the spiritual depth and meaning of the TRUE Torah of God. And not perfecting commandments written on tablets. hope that helps. I could be off, but aye, i love scripture and i love learning scripture. We can only keep the TRUE Torah IN Christ who came to FILL FULL the Law of Moses - which was originally GIVEN BY GOD. So Christ, IS THE TRUE TORAH. Not what Moses had
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the truth

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Re: Col-2-13-17
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2012, 10:05:52 PM »

newgene
AMEN THAT!...We can only keep the TRUE Torah IN Christ who came to FILL FULL the Law of Moses - which was originally GIVEN BY GOD. So Christ, IS THE TRUE TORAH.

your quote:.......He came to fill the meaning of the Law....Not sure about that!

it says ...but to fulfill...not to come to fulfill the meaning.....Also until heaven and earth pass away?

Thanks Eugene ..keep pressing on my friend.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 10:28:37 PM by the truth »
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the truth

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Re: Col-2-13-17
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2012, 11:18:20 PM »

Hello John

kainos
kahee-nos'
Of uncertain affinity; new (especially in freshness; while G3501 is properly so with respect to age): - new

What part of this do you believe wont be fullfilled?Are you saying Christ is Not going to fullfiull this!.

Luk 24:44  AndG1161 he saidG2036 unto them,G846 TheseG3778 are theG3588 wordsG3056 whichG3739 I spakeG2980 untoG4314 you,G5209 while I wasG5607 yetG2089 withG4862 you,G5213 thatG3754 all thingsG3956 mustG1163 be fulfilled,G4137 which were writtenG1125 inG1722 theG3588 lawG3551 of Moses,G3475 andG2532 in the prophets,G4396 andG2532 in the psalms,G5568 concerningG4012 me.

neos  neōteros
neh'-os, neh-o'-ter-os
A primary word, including the comparative (second form); “new”, that is, (of persons) youthful, or (of things) fresh
: - new, young

H2319
חדשׁ
châdâsh
khaw-dawsh'
From H2318; new: - fresh, new thing

Jer 31:31  Behold,H2009 the daysH3117 come,H935 saithH5002 the LORD,H3068 that I will makeH3772 a newH2319 covenantH1285 withH854 the houseH1004 of Israel,H3478 and withH854 the houseH1004 of Judah

jer 1:32  Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33  But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Notice:verse 33...thats what i believe John along with ever other Scripture I have posted which most seems to pass by?

Who-ever that don't believe these Scriptures  their problem isn't with me but the Lord.

My COVENANT they brake......What had to happen for a woman to be remarried....Her Husband had to die.Well he did...and he is remarried.

Thanks John for your post...I am bowing OUT OF THIS.I prefer to keep fellowship with everyone here.This is something that I see different and thats fine I have plenty of Scripture to back it up as to what ...I..believe.Please send any questions to me by pm.Jerry   

Read:Lev-chapter 23 and Zech chapter-14.



« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 11:54:30 PM by the truth »
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Col-2-13-17
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2012, 01:37:51 AM »

http://bible-truths.com/email6.htm#nothing ------------------------

[Ray Replies]

Dear Lisa:

I can certainly understand your situation. There are maybe a thousand Christians churches teaching nearly the same things, however, different enough to call themselves by another name. I believe, however, that they all will take 10% of your salary and call it God's Tithe, regardless of what church YOU belong to.

There are lots of theories as to how one gets saved--what is required and what is not, what has been done away with and what has not. Usually people end up just picking a few things that they personally believe are important and try to stick to those. Maybe the one single most important physical ritual in all the Old Testament was "circumcision." The most demeaning thing that one could be called was an "Uncircumcised Gentile." Wow, how horrible.

Circumcision is the cutting of the foreskin of a boy when he is eight days old. It came to represent the purifying of the human heart. As though eight day olds could have their hearts purified.  Flesh became synonymous with a carnal mind, and mind and attitude against God's will and commandments. It was just a physical ritual of cutting off a few centimeters of skin, but it was to picture THE ACTUAL CONVERSION OF THE HUMAN HEART AND TOTAL DEDICATIONS TO GOD. And mind you, the unfortunate female could not partake of this most revered ritual at all!

Well, don't you know, all Jewish babies were circumcised, as are all orthodox babies to this day, but there was a problem. They were all physically circumcised, but almost no one was circumcised spiritually in their heart, AND THAT IS WHAT IT REPRESENTED!

It was all the circumcised Jews in Jerusalem that crucified their own Messiah. The circumcised scribes and Pharisees were among the most hypocritical pack of lying, lusting, thieves on earth. Saul of Tarsus was circumcised the eight day as commanded--he also slaughtered many in Christ's Church and became the WORST SINNER IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD. 

I could go on and on. By the way, that pack of cut throat murders that chanted "CRUCIFY HIM, CRUCIFY HIM"--They were the ones that BELIEVED ON JESUS, WERE BAPTIZED BY JOHN, AND KEPT THE SABBATH DAY COMMAND EVERY WEEK!!!

Yet, I get emails every week, Lisa, telling me that we MUST "keep the Sabbath," we MUST "pay our tithes," we MUST observe the "Lord's supper," we MUST be "baptized in water," "we MUST "keep the ten commandments," etc., or we CAN'T BE SAVED!!!

Satan and his ministers APPEAR as angels of light! But Jesus said, "Satan DECEIVES THE WHOLE WORLD!" Do you think that just maybe professing Christians are part of "THE WHOLE WORLD?"

Do physical rituals, SPIRITUALLY SAVE A PERSON?

Most of Christendom and their highly schooled clergymen, have not a clue that we are under A NEW COVENANT, and that it is NOT PATTERNED AFTER THE OLD COVENANT! God said:

"I will make a NEW covenant with the [spiritual] house of Israel and with the House of Judah. NOT ACCORDING... [that's 'NOT according...'] ...NOT ACCORDING to the [old] covenant that I made with their fathers..." (Heb. 8:8-9).

Yet all of Christendom virtually teaches that the New Covenant is IN ACCORD WITH THE OLD covenant. That really, the New Testament to them is "Keeping the Old covenant BETTER than they used to keep the OLD COVENANT!!! Uncircumcised, unscriptural, HOG-WASH!!

Jesus said:

"Think NOT that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, BUT TO FULFILL"

Now follow this closely:

Did not Jesus say He came to "FULFILL" the prophets?
 
Did He in reality and actually, "fulfill" all the prophecies concerning Himself and His ministry?
 
YES HE DID!

Are those very SAME prophecies, therefore, still to be continuously fulfilled, over and over and over down through the centuries?
 
NO, JESUS HAS ALREADY FULFILLED THEM--ONCE FOR ALL!

Did Jesus also "FULFILL" the law? YES HE DID.
 
Are we then to continuously fulfill the law, over and over and over down through the centuries?
 
Contrary to all Christendom and the Supreme Court Judge of Alabama, NO WE ARE NOT!

WE ARE NOT, I REPEAT 'NOT' UNDER THE SAME OLD COVENANT LAWS TODAY!!! Jesus Christ and the Apostles SAID SO.

"In that He [Jesus] said, A NEW COVENANT, he has made the first OLD. Now that which decays and waxes old is ready to VANISH AWAY" (Heb. 8:13).

Will we believe these words or not?

Here is the real answer:

"For the LOVE of Christ constrains us because we thus judge, that if One died for all, then were ALL DEAD: And that He died for all, that they which live should NOT henceforth live unto themselves, but unto HIM which died for them, and rose again. Where henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet NOW HENCEFORTH KNOW WE HIM  NO  MORE. THEREFORE if any man be IN CHRIST, he is A  NEW CREATURE: old things are passed away; BEHOLD, all things are become new"!!! (II Cor. 5:14-17).

If you are IN CHRIST, then CHRIST IS IN YOU, and Christ will live a NEW LIFE IN YOU THROUGH THE SPIRIT OF GOD, and not through the carnal minded flesh of man.

THERE IS NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, THAT ONE CAN DO 'PHYSICALLY' TO GET SAVED 'SPIRITUALLY'!!

But what about all these 'physical things' of circumcision and baptism? Do we not have to be circumcised and baptized? YES WE DO! ABSOLUTELY. And here is how it is to be done:

"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy [theological doctrines] and vain DECEIT, after the TRADITION OF MEN, after the RUDIMENTS OF THE WORLD, and not AFTER CHRIST. For IN HIM dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.  And YOU ARE COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the Head of all principality and power: In Whom also ye ARE CIRCUMCISED [how so?] with the circumcision made WITHOUT HANDS [or knives], in putting off the BODY OF THE SINS OF THE FLESH by the CIRCUMCISION OF CHRIST: [notice, no period...] Buried WITH HIM [in 'WATER baptism?' No...] in baptism [how so? same way! 'WITHOUT HANDS; WITHOUT WATER, 'in putting off the body of the SINS OF THE FLESH by the BAPTISM OF CHRIST--there is but 'ONE BAPTISM,' Eph. 4:5!], wherein also you are risen WITH HIM through the faith of the operation of God Who has raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the UNcircumcision of your flesh, has He quickened together WITH HIM, having forgiven you ALL TRESPASSES

... Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon or of the sabbath days: Which are a SHADOW of things to come, but the body [the SUBSTANCE, the REALITY OF THE SHADOW, the BODY OF CHRIST WHICH WAS CASTING THE SHADOW] is of [or belongs to] CHRIST" (Col. 2:8-13 & 16-17)!!!

At the conference at Jerusalem spoken of in the 15th chapter of Acts, Christian Pharisees were demanding that newly converted Gentiles must BE CIRCUMCISED AND KEEP THE LAW OF MOSES.  Did the Apostles, elders, disciples, and the whole church under the inspiration of God's Holy Spirit conclude that they should:

  A. Be circumcised, but NOT to keep the law of Moses?

  B. Keep the law of Moses, but NOT to be circumcised?

  C. Be circumcised, AND keep the law of Moses?

  D. NONE OF THE ABOVE?

It is, of course, NONE OF THE ABOVE. They ALL concluded in complete harmony with each other and the Spirit of God, that new Christian converts were not to be circumcised OR keep the law of Moses. Now everyone knows (don't they?) that the ritual of circumcision was the most important physical ritual in all the Old Covenant, and that that the Old Covenant itself WAS the 'Ten Commandments.'

"And He [GOD] declared unto you His [Old now] Covenant, which He commanded you to perform, EVEN TEN COMMANDMENTS; and He wrote them upon two tables of stone" (Deut. 4:13).

The TEN COMMANDMENTS were, in effect, THE OLD COVENANT! Read all of Acts 15 and see for yourself that the OLD covenant ten commandments and circumcision were NOT enforced upon NEW CHRISTIAN CONVERTS UNDER THE NEW COVENANT!

When we have JESUS CHRIST LIVING IN OUR VERY HEARTS AND MINDS AND SPIRITS, we don't need laws chiseled into hearts of STONY TABLETS!  We must live a spiritual life FAR FAR ABOVE that of the legalistic Pharisaical hypocrites that thought that obeying physical laws makes a man SPIRITUAL.

One could KILL HIS ENEMIES under the Old Covenant. Well he can't anymore. Now a Christian MUST LOVE ALL OF HIS ENEMIES! One was to performed his oaths unto the Lord in the Old Covenant, but now a Christian is "NOT TO SWEAR AT ALL."  You see NOT SWEARING is NOT the spiritual application of SWEARING. They are DIFFERENT. And the New is BETTER! One was not to commit the actual act of physical intercourse with another man's wife, under the Old Covenant. But now ... NOW, we dare not even "LOOK upon a woman to lust after her"!!!
 
Are you getting the picture? Are you beginning to hear with your spiritual ears and perceive with you spiritual eyes and understand in your SPIRITUAL HEART?  GOOD!   GOD BLESS YOU!

Peace and grace to you and yours, always,

Ray

P.S. God will give His Holy Spirit to those whom He has called and chosen. There are no physical formulas now that we know Christ no more after the flesh, we are COMPLETE IN HIM, which certainly includes His Holy Spirit.
 
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Dave in Tenn

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« Last Edit: August 13, 2012, 01:43:09 AM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Dave in Tenn

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Re: Col-2-13-17
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2012, 01:59:59 AM »

From LOF 7

www.Bible-Truths.com\bible-truths.com\lake7.html

IS THE NEW COVENANT THE OLD COVENANT IN YOU HEART?

Now we are coming down to it. The church today teaches that the NEW Covenant or testament is keeping the OLD Covenant better. That’s right. They say that the New Covenant is keeping the OLD Covenant in your heart. That is clearly NOT what the Scriptures say. The New Covenant is decidedly,

"NOT IN ACCORD with the [Old] covenant which I made with their fathers" (Heb. 8:9).

"In that He says, A NEW covenant, He has made the first OLD. Now that which decays and waxes OLD is ready to VANISH AWAY" (Heb. 8;12).

And many more such Scriptures.

Now we already have clearly seen that Paul kept this Old Covenant Law of Moses contained in Ten Commandments (Deut.4:13), and he kept it BLAMELESSLY! And so Paul may be the only person who has ever came close to keeping the law "blamelessly" or perfectly. Most of Christendom would love to say that they keep the law of Moses "blamelessly!" They would be sooooo proud.

THE CHIEF OF SINNERS WAS THE PERFECT LAW KEEPER

Now then for the shocker! In I Tim. 1:15 we read this:

"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation [in other words, what Paul is about to say is the absolute truth and worthy of considerable contemplation] that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, OF WHOM I AM CHIEF"!!

I covered these verses in great detail in a previous installment. Paul REALLY WAS the WORST, PREEMINENT SINNER THAT HAS EVER LIVED. Paul was truly "CHIEF of sinners"!! And we read where Paul was once "BLAMELESS in the keeping of the law of Moses."

Now then, WHEN was Paul (1) "BLAMELESS IN LAW KEEPING"? And WHEN was Paul (2) "the CHIEF OF SINNERS"? The answer: AT THE SAME TIME!!!

WHEN PAUL HAD REACHED THE ZENITH OF TOTAL OBEDIENCE AND ZEAL TO GOD UNDER THE OLD COVENANT LAW OF MOSES, IT CAUSED HIM AT THE SAME TIME TO BE THE WORLD’S WORST SINNER!!!

Paul was both THE MOST PERFECT LAW-KEEPER AND THE WORLD’S WORST SINNER, AT THE SAME TIME!!!

NO WONDER PAUL WROTE:

"Who also makes us competent dispensers of a NEW covenant, NOT of the letter, but OF the spirit, for the letter KILLS but the spirit gives LIFE" (II Cor. 3:6).

The Old Covenant written in Ten Commandments on stone tablets was an "ADMINISTRATION OF DEATH" (Ver. 7). And the letter will ALWAYS KILL:

"They shall put you out of the synagogues; yea, the time comes, that whosoever KILLS YOU will think that he does God service [by following the law of Moses under the Old Covenant]" (John 16:2).

To prove to God his GREATEST ZEAL, Paul persecuted and slaughtered the church, which was legal for him to do under the authority of the High Priest, Chief Priests, Elders and Council at the Temple in Jerusalem, of whom Jesus Himself said, "They SIT IN MOSES SEAT." And it was this very ZEAL FOR GOD that also made him the world’s WORST SINNER! Unbelievable! UNBELIEVABLE!! UNBELIEVABLE!!!

But we must believe it—it is the Word of God!

PHARISEES ALWAYS COMMAND
KEEPING THE LAW OF MOSES

"But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed [yes, they were Christian Pharisees] saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to KEEP THE LAW OF MOSES" (Acts 15:5).

Did the church and the elders and disciples now under the Apostles’ care agree with these Pharisees that the Gentles must "keep the law of Moses?" No, they absolutely did not. Read chapter 15 of Acts for yourself.

Paul came OUT of the religion of the Jews COMPLETELY.

"Yea doubtless, and I count ALL THINGS but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for Whom I have suffered the loss of ALL things, and do count them but DUNG, that I may win Christ" (Phil. 3:8).

The Christian world is teaching and striving to KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF MOSES IN THEIR HEARTS—The Apostle Paul already accomplished that feat and he called that great accomplishment of perfect commandment keeping—"DUNG"!

It was at this stage of Paul’s spiritual development and accomplishment that God labeled Paul "THE CHIEF OF SINNERS." Need I say more? Does anyone reading this "have an ear to hear what the Spirit is saying to the Churches?"

And so the Pharisees today are still commanding everyone, everywhere to "KEEP THE LAW OF MOSES?" The Church does not understand that Jesus Christ is the REALITY of what the Old Covenant Laws of Moses were but the shadow.

In a previous installment I showed you how that God converted Saul into Paul in a giant flash of light. God took Paul from the world’s greatest law-keeper and the world’s greatest sinner into the reality of Jesus Christ in a matter of SECONDS! Paul was shaken to his very foundation on that glorious day on the road to Demascus.

Paul had to COME OUT of the mother church of which he was totally dedicated all the days of his life. Paul was a good Jew, but he was a bad Christian.

Many things that the Church today aspires to are the very things that Paul repented of and called "dung."

The "Jew’s religion" as Paul called it was the true Church of God that settled in Jerusalem after coming out of Egypt and out of the Wilderness. But within a short generation after our Lord’s crucifixion and resurrection, the Church of God, at the temple in Jerusalem, came to an end. And to this day, there is no more sacrificing, there is no more a temple and there is no more a Levitic Priesthood.

Ironically, in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, "church" is mentioned in but two Scriptures. In Matt. 18:17 Jesus refers to "the church" and in Matt. 16:18 He refers to "My church" which He said HE would build. And the seven churches in Rev. 2 & 3 are representative of and the personification of the church that Jesus Christ built. It was THAT church that Jesus built, that Paul the Judaic Pharisee, persecuted. Jesus prophesied that the church would be persecuted and scattered:

"And Jesus said unto them, ALL YE shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, ‘I will smite the Shepherd [the Christ], and the sheep shall be SCATTERED" (Mark 14:27).

The church multiplied in numbers very quickly after the Resurrection, but persecution multiplied also:

"And Saul was consenting unto his [Stephen’s] death. And at that time there was a GREAT PERSECUTION against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were ALL SCATTERED ABROAD throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles" (Acts 8:1).

GOD’S PEOPLE ARE STILL SCATTERED AND PERSECUTED

Well don’t think that the persecution of the Church stopped just because God converted Saul/Paul, the chief persecutor. It did not. Following Christ is synonymous with persecution:

"Yea, and ALL that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer PERSECUTION" (II Tim. 3:12).

Don’t be deceived into thinking that this persecution will come from the world of godless atheism.

God is creating Sons that bear His Name, have His Spirit, have the Mind of Christ, and are the express image of our Elder Brother, Jesus Christ. It is the highest calling in the universe! Although the sacrifices are great, the rewards are FAR GREATER!

If God is calling you to be a Son, you must come out of "Mystery Babylon the Great, mother of harlots, and the abominations of the earth."

When you see the truth of the seven churches of Revelation in our next installment, it may be the most troublesome truth you will ever encounter. There are few things in this world more bizarre or shocking than the truth of the Seven Churches of Revelation!

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newgene87

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Re: Col-2-13-17
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2012, 02:03:55 AM »

beautiful. Can't be too complicated. Christ FULFILLED THE Law and the Prophets. Scriptures are still wonderful in giving us some light on the works of God and a taste of His thoughts - but the ultimate Goal, righteousness, and salvation is JESUS CHRIST. The true bread from heaven, the true Light, the Life, The way, the Truth, The teachings, The Torah, ALL IS CHRIST. Thank you for those references Dave. Ray nails it
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Col-2-13-17
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2012, 02:28:49 AM »

www.forums.bible-truths.com\index.php\topic,5813.0.html

Ray teaches Col. 2:14 specifically.

An excerpt: (My bold)

I find it sad that in America laws have to be made to protect people from others(usually so called Christians) from harming them. When Jesus preached the law he was yet alive. When someone knew or figured out who he was he began to get skeptical of them or push them away for if all were not lost but able to achieve perfection thru the law then Jesus died for nothing. If the word was made flesh,the law was nailed to the cross.     
   
COMMENT:  Oh really?  "The LAW was nailed to the cross," was it?  And do you have chapter and verse on that bit of unscriptural nonsense  Col 2:14 "Blotting out THE HANDWRITING OF ORDINANCES that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross."  God never nailed His "LAW" to the cross.  The Covenant Law which IS THE TEN COMMANDMENTS was not a "handwriting of ordinances," but was rather chiseled IN STONE, and was placed IN the ark of the Covenant, not on the OUTSIDE of the ark as were the ordinances.  You have not a clue as to what you are talking about.
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the truth

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Re: Col-2-13-17
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2012, 10:34:01 AM »

Hello,All

RAY said.......God never nailed His "LAW" to the cross....so back to my question ?So this was the "Oral law?

And once again you totally blow over Scripture to post what a man taught?And i know thats what we are here for but still.If we are just going to throw out the Scriptuers when they... MAY...not fit were in trouble.

Everyone....you are saying God will not fullfill...as  I have posted...several times Lk-24-44 or Zech-chapter 14?

Simple question..If you at peace with what RaY said Great.I am at peace with what God said.

thanks Dave,John for your post.God Bless!

p.s. I will re-read what you have posted and Ray teachings and if I see a problem I will repent and do likewise.But i can assure all what you may think I am trying to say is totally different than reality.Again....your saying God WONT Fullfill his Scripture?And if your saying he already has than you have a different bible.

« Last Edit: August 13, 2012, 10:47:22 AM by the truth »
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newgene87

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Re: Col-2-13-17
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2012, 11:45:49 AM »

Okay..I hope I didn't misread but Ray NAILS the truth of the law is Moses and the observance of it. He states over and over again; as the scriptures state - CHRIST FULFILLED THE LAW. It's observances, deeds, works. He posts these "words of ray" because ray IS scriptural. ALL THINGS ARE FULFILLED in the LAW AND PROPHETS. So what's the problem?? What's the goal of Zech 14 in that Christ fulfilled. There's no feasts, observance of days, righteousness of the law - its ALL FULFILLED. I sent you a pm and ray nails it. And no, not the oral law, but the law of Moses. Ray nails it and scripture agrees. Romans 3, 8, Galatians 3-5 and Hebrews 7-10 explains in detail the principle of the law OF MOSES and Christ fulfillment. So I praise God for Ray because he is scriptural. Once you understand Christ fulfilled the scriptures and brought a new covenant
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Craig

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Re: Col-2-13-17
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2012, 11:47:35 AM »

Maybe the problem here is with the meaning of the word fulfill.
What religion teaches is totally different from what I believe it means, and what Ray taught.

The problem we have always had on the forum and our understanding is there is so much baggage we have to leave when "we come out of her."  Also we are programed that "we" have to do this or "we" have to do that. God's way is easy and the burden is light when we just let Him lead.

Craig
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indianabob

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Re: Col-2-13-17
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2012, 03:57:11 PM »

Hi John,

Just sticking my neck out a little here to say what it seems like to this old fellow.

It seems that Jerry is asking if we have considered what life will be like for the flesh and blood humans on the earth AFTER Lord Jesus returns to rule. For example will carnal people around Jerusalem or Judea be taught to observe the holy days as a remembrance of what was and what is yet to come in God's holy plan for mankind?
What also interests me is will those folks have their eyes opened and be taught the mysteries or spiritual secrets that Paul learned directly from Lord Jesus in Arabia and then taught to the gentiles in his ministry?
OR will God's ministry be more similar to what it was like for the Jews for all those centuries past before the Christ revealed God's "mysteries" to Paul.

In plain terms, will everyone know that there is no eternally burning hell and that death is a brief moment of sleep until the resurrection. OR will tribes living away from Judea, where Lord Jesus and the elect are ruling, be allowed to teach error once again until they are given the desire to learn God's ways?

Just wondering, Indianabob
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the truth

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Re: Col-2-13-17
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2012, 04:06:52 PM »

Hello Whoever

First,Thank you Craig for your post.Could you please either post or pm this ..Teaching of what fullfill means?If not thats ok.

Eugene:I will send what you asked by the way.I have been very busy today but i will do.

AS far as your thoughts

You stated on your first post......"I will put my 2 cents in. For the most part, this is the Mosaic Law".


RAY said.......God never nailed His "LAW" to the cross....so back to my question ?So this was the "Oral law

You never answered that.

 Now,you say this...

ALL THINGS ARE FULFILLED in the LAW AND PROPHETS. So what's the problem?? What's the goal of Zech 14 in that Christ fulfilled. There's no feasts, observance of days, righteousness of the law - its ALL FULFILLED.

Honestly,I could go for several hours with this.

1.With the thought that Christ came and fullfilled the first 4 feast..passover,un-leavned bread,firstfruits,pentacost.
you may be able to see this in Isaiah.And also Luke 4-18-19.

Isa 61:1  The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound

Ok...So you may be able to see what does the Lord do and say in verses 19-20 of Luke ch-4?

Luk 4:20  And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
Luk 4:21  And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

Christ has come and fullfilled the first 4 feast as the SUFFERING MESSIAH.passover,un-leavened,firstfruits,passover.

Now,whats going to happen?
His coming back to fullfill the last 3 feast...feast of trumpets,day of antonment,and low and behold the feast of the tabernacle.

As the reigning Messiah...SEE ISAIAH 61-2-11.

Isa 61:2  To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
Isa 61:3  To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
Isa 61:4  And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.
Isa 61:5  And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
Isa 61:6  But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.
Isa 61:7  For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them.
Isa 61:8  For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.
Isa 61:9  And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the LORD hath blessed.
Isa 61:10  I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.
Isa 61:11  For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.

So Eugene Can you see were Zechariah chapter 14 might actually mean something?Is this not the millium reighn?

See..Zech-14-16-19...Eugene and share with me what that means?What happens at feasts?Has this already taken place?Has the other many prophcy taken place that have to come to pass?


« Last Edit: August 13, 2012, 04:15:46 PM by the truth »
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Col-2-13-17
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2012, 05:27:38 PM »

Jerry, you've also not answered John's question.

I'm not about to try to teach, and I don't have the ability to peel back all the layers of the understandings and mistunderstandings of all the tribes of christendom.  That's Ray's job.  I'm just an old physical gentile, but physically circumicised (like most american males) sometime in my infancy (maybe not the eigth day--don't know, don't care...it's too late).  The only spiritual benefit I have from being circumcised is that I know for absolute surety that CIRCUMCISION is nothing.  I also know for sure that uncircumcision is nothing, though being circumcised it's more a matter of observation and believing the scripture that all have sinned and that there is none righteous, no not one.  I believe those scriptures with all my heart.  I've lived them, and through them.

Back to Ray.

 Oh really?  "The LAW was nailed to the cross," was it?  And do you have chapter and verse on that bit of unscriptural nonsense  Col 2:14 "Blotting out THE HANDWRITING OF ORDINANCES that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross."  God never nailed His "LAW" to the cross.  The Covenant Law which IS THE TEN COMMANDMENTS was not a "handwriting of ordinances," but was rather chiseled IN STONE, and was placed IN the ark of the Covenant, not on the OUTSIDE of the ark as were the ordinances.  You have not a clue as to what you are talking about.

What was nailed to the cross and blotted out is the HANDWRITING OF ORDINANCES.  For the life of me, I can't see how something that is HANDWRITING can be simply ORAL. 

Col 2:13  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14  Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15  And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. 

We have to follow a logic of scripture that does not make it contradict.  To follow all those strands requires more than a forum post or thread.  Ray's reply quoted here was to a person who did not believe that the Law is Spiritual, not did he understand the New Covenant which is not in accord with the old.

We put new wine in old winsekins and spoil them both.  Neither circumsicion nor uncircumcision profits anything.       
     
OK...I've at least attempted to answer your question.  Will you do the same for John's?         
 
« Last Edit: August 13, 2012, 06:14:48 PM by Dave in Tenn »
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Col-2-13-17
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2012, 05:59:51 PM »

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9742.0.html  Do James and Paul Contradict?   

Excerpted:

THE WEAK AND BEGGARLY ELEMENTS

Gal 4:9  But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements…

Is Paul calling; thy shalt not murder, they shalt not steal, thy shalt honor thy father and mother… is he calling those “weak and beggarly elements”? Is that what he is calling weak and beggarly elements? Let’s notice it.

v. 9  …whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?  (How so?)
v. 10  Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

There it is, another example of just these physical physical physical rituals, you know that you pay so much attention to. Just like the Pharisees who say, you are suppose to tithe, that’s fine. So we have pepper pods and they will get tweezers and we will count these darn pepper pods to be sure we give God His tenth. But then when it came to justice and mercy and treating the people and the widows and the fatherless and the orphans and the homeless right, they just threw it to the wind. The weightier matters of the law they just threw to the wind. 

He’s not talking about the weightier matters here, he talking about the weak and beggarly elements. This observation of days and months and times and years and seasons and all of that.

Okay we never see the word ‘alone.’ Yes we’re justified by faith, but be careful now, nowhere do we find the word ‘alone.’ We only find that with A. E. Knoch and Martin Luther, that is the only place we find that. The rest of protestantism teaches it, they teach it, but they got it from the heretics.

[Comment: In the Concordant, it didn’t quite have that same meaning did it, of ‘alone’?]
 
Oh absolutely. I’ll read it to you again.

Gal 2:16 having perceived that a man is not being justified by works of law, except alone through the faith of Christ Jesus, (CLV)

‘Alone’… only alone, faith alone.

Now I’m going to start bringing this works and faith together here  First I want you to understand, good works are never referred to as ‘works of the law.’  See you could assume, that since Paul said “that by the works of the law shall no man be justified.” James said, “a man is justified by his works,” that it’s a contradiction. It’s not a contradiction. James is talking about works (and we are going to see what kind of works). Paul is talking about the works of the law. Now these are two different things. Paul tells us what works of the law are… circumcision, this observing of times and days weeks. And in other places touch not, eat not, all these dietary laws and so on.  Paul talks about that through all his writings, works of the law, physical, carnal, beggarly, weak things, you see. 

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