http://bible-truths.com/email17.htm#firemanJust to address your fireman analogy. My point was that your universal salvation message makes NO FIREMEN necessary. If the fireman knew that GOD was saving everyone anyway, why would they risk everything to do what God had already taken care of? YOU are saying that everyone will be saved, so why send any firemen? In other words, why did the apostles (firemen) risk their very lives to spread a gospel when God had already paid for everyone's salvation and they would be saved regardless of whether they were preached to or not (effectively saving everyone in the building anyway)?
I agree that Christ died for all, and I understand that his death was NECESSARY PAYMENT for sin - I never said otherwise. Salvation through Christ is AVAILABLE to all and it is God's desire that all will be saved, but a distinction has to be made between God's permissive and absolute wills. God allows certain things to happen (permissive will), such as starvation, murder, etc. even though it is his desire that these things not happen.
This is an essential doctrine if you believe that we have free will.
I could go on, but I wanted to primarily address the fireman analogy- it is YOUR doctrine that makes the fireman (apostles, preachers) unnecessary because those in danger will ALL be saved regardless of the efforts of the firemen.
Layne
[Ray Replies]
Dear Layne:
Listen carefully once more, this is not rocket science.
My fireman analogy was perfect, it is you who are being stubborn. Have you ever witnessed a burning building in person or on the news where the firemen stood in front of the burning building with their hands folded watching people screaming for help from the windows but doing nothing? Have you ever then seen God supernaturally pull dozens of people from the burning building while the firemen only watched? I don't think so. And I wouldn't believe you if your said that you did. That is what firemen DO -- THEY SAVE PEOPLE FROM BURNING BUILDINGS! Jesus Christ is the "Saviour of the world" (I John 4:14) -- that's what Jesus DOES -- HE SAVES THE SINNERS OF THE WHOLE WORLD!!!
Now then, He has not as of YET saved all sinners in the whole world, but give Him time and HE WILL!! Jesus Christ IS THE FIREMAN, if you will, who saves people! My analogy was perfect, you just didn't get it.
And once again on your other point: If it IS NECESSARY to send ministers into the world to 'save a few,' by what insane logic does it become 'UN-NECESSARY' to send ministers into the world to "SAVE ALL?" Listen closely. God uses the "foolishness of preaching" as a vehicle to bring the gospel to the people. THAT IS HOW God does it. He could do it Himself, supernaturally, but He chooses to use the foolishness of preaching to accomplish it. And whether He is saving just a few at this time and more later and still more even yet later, He chooses His own creatures to spread the good news.
I don't find the phrase "permissive will" in the Scriptures. I don't find the phrase "free-will" with regards to our will being free from causality. Certainly there were voluntary offerings in the Old testament. What actually is there in our brain, mind, spirit, soul, or will that enables it to makes choices and decision THAT HAVE NO CAUSE? This is a physiological impossibility. The first edict of the universe is 'cause and effect." That's the way ALL OF GODS OPERATE. Now then, is it possible to make a choice, make a decision, or even think a thought that DID NOT have an influencing CAUSE behind it? No there isn't! Who then ARE our wills caused to will as they do? External and internal circumstances -- millions and billions of them, and none of which we created ourselves. Who did create the circumstances of life and the universe?
"For it is GOD Who is OPERATING IN YOU TO WILL as well as to work for the sake of His delight" (Phil. 2:13).
God does NOT operate by two sets of "will" -- one a strong will and the other a weak wish! That is utter nonsense and foolishness.
Of course "this is an essential doctrine if you believe that we have a free will." But we DON'T have a "free" will and therefore all the unscriptural doctrines associated with it fall flat on their faces. The WHOLE WORLD believes that man has a free will. Even the pagans and heathens. All peoples and all nations primarily subscribe to this unscriptural teaching. No wonder God has said that the WISDOM (not the foolishness, but the WISDOM) of this world (and "free will" is definitely one of the wisdom's of THIS WORLD) are STUPIDITY (Greek: moria=insipity--STUPIDITY)! (I Cor. 3:19)!
You think I Tim. 2:4 and a dozens other Scriptures like it are not presenting God's will, but rather just a weak wish? Do you believe a more accurate translation of I Tim. 2:4 would go like this: "For this is ideal and welcome in the sight of our Saviour, God, Who wishes and hopes with no possibility of ever bringing it to pass, that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth"(?). Since that is the way that you interpret it, would didn't God just inspire it that way in the first place?
Listen carefully to me Layne. It is blasphemy to demean God's declarations by watering-down God's will to wishful thinking that will NEVER COME TO PASS!
When God SPEAKS, OR SAYS, OR DECLARES, OR WILLS, OR WISHES, OR DESIRES a future goal, IT WILL COME TO PASS. Who are you to deny God's declarations?
"Look unto me, and BE YE SAVED, ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH FOR I AM GOD, AND THERE IS NONE ELSE. I HAVE SWORN BY MYSELF, THE WORD IS DONE OUT OF MY MOUTH IN RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND SHALL NOT RETURN. That unto ME EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW, EVERY TONGUE SHALL SWEAR" (Isaiah 45:22-23)!!!
"Remember the former things of old: for I AM GOD, AND THERE IS NONE ELSE; I AM GOD, AND THERE IS NONE LIKE ME. DECLARING the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are NOT YET DONE ['I will also give thee for a light to the GENTILES, that thou mayest be MY SALVATION UNTO THE END OF THE EARTH'!!! It is yet coming Isa. 49:6] saying, MY COUNSEL SHALL STAND, AND I WILL DO ALL MY PLEASURE: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I HAVE SPOKEN IT [as in I Tim. 2:4!], I WILL ALSO BRING IT TO PASS: I HAVE PURPOSED IT, I WILL ALSO DO IT" (ISa. 46:5-11)!!!
Layne! You need a real change of heart regarding you Creator and His Word! You are parroting Mystery Babylon the Great. Show me a "weak wish" in those Scriptures I presented you with in Isaiah 45, 46, and 49! God Almighty has declared that He will SAVE THE WORLD -- ALL MANKIND, and you declare "Sorry Lord, but it will NEVER HAPPEN -- just WISHFUL THINKING ON YOUR PART, GOD"! Don't you tremble just a little when you teach such shameful things regarding your God and Saviour? I want to shame you, I am trying my best to shame you. I am trying to pull you of the excessive trials of fire that you will go through if you don't repent of this slander of God's character!
Seriously, Layne, I can SHOW YOU from the Scriptures how God's plan is operating. God is not bashful about DRAGGING people to repentance!! Witness Saul. Was Saul's will "free" to spit in God's face when He SMASHED HIM TO THE EARTH WITH A BLINDING AND AWESOME LIGHT? Paul said that he was the WORST OF SINNERS -- he wasn't bragging, he was totally honest. HE WAS THE WORST SINNER THAT HAD EVER LIVED!! And God converted him in less than ONE SECOND!!! "Permissive will" my foot. God can save ANY AND EVERY SINNER IN THE WORLD IN AN INSTANT, JUST AS HE DID WITH SAUL, AND HE CAN DO IT ANY TIME HE CHOOSES! Who are YOU to deny God's Word?
When God chooses someone to come to Christ in repentance -- HE WILL COME!!
"NO MAN CAN COME TO ME, EXCEPT THE FATHER WHICH HATH SEND ME DRAW [Greek: 'helko'=DRAG] him: and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:44).
So much for you "free will."
"Ye have NOT chosen me, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU..." (John 15:16).
Where's your free will in that Scripture. It isn't that the Scriptures don't teach the absolute Sovereignty of God, it's just that people do NOT APPROVE!! People do not approve of the Word of God and people certainly don't approve the operations of God, and so they invent more and more unscriptural doctrines that exalt the carnal mind and flesh of man!
Well, I gotta go, Layne. Maybe give it some serious thought without immediately coming up with a pre-packaged middle of the road fundamentalist rebuttal.
God be with your spirit as you meditate on these grand themes and compare Scripture with Scripture.
Ray
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Topic: Ray's Fireman Analogy (Read 3725 times)