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Author Topic: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...  (Read 15816 times)

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Revilonivek

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if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
« on: August 21, 2012, 04:22:25 PM »

I have a question that has been bothering me... If God wanted to forgive us, why can't he just forgive us just like that, like he asks us to forgive others. Why does he need to have his Son tortured and die in order to forgive us. It just doesn't make sense? i need your insight on this. Thanks so much.

Denise
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2012, 05:38:09 PM »

I have a question that has been bothering me... If God wanted to forgive us, why can't he just forgive us just like that, like he asks us to forgive others. Why does he need to have his Son tortured and die in order to forgive us. It just doesn't make sense? i need your insight on this. Thanks so much.

Denise

Perhaps it wasn't just about forgiveness?

Perhaps it was about proving to a creation that could never understand Him, atleast not as they are now, that He loves them and relates to them?

If your dad always sent you gifts on your birthday, gave you money, but never actually spent time with you or did anything for you, you might start to doubt his love. But if your dad layed down his life for, died for you, to show you how much he really loves you, you could never go to him afterwards and say "You never really showed you cared you know?" "You gave me everything I wanted but that doesn't mean you loved me."

This way, no one can say to Him, You didn't really love us, you don't know what it's like to be us.

God bless,

Alex
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

GaryK

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Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2012, 07:42:08 PM »


“Why should submitting His Son to a brutal beating and crucifixion "please Him?"

“And this is how God knew that Christ's sacrifice would not be in vain.”

http://bible-truths.com/WhyGodLovesYou.htm


Denise,

The above two quotes are teasers for you.   I believe you’ll find your answer(s) in Ray’s paper.

gk
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Joel

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Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2012, 10:58:54 PM »

We can rest assured that God has his reasons for doing what he does, and the outcome is always perfect.
Under the Old Covenant people were required to bring blood offerings for the remission of their sins.

Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without the shedding of blood is no remission.
Under the New Covenant God required the bloody death of his Son Jesus Christ, and that was a one time requirement that God accepted once and for all for the forgiveness of our sins.
John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Joel
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Revilonivek

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Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2012, 11:20:46 PM »

It doesn't make sense.. to be honest.

The same concept applies... for example.. if I sin against you, and you cannot forgive me unless your own biological son, The good one, kills (tortured/murdered)  himself to save me, the bad child and it is only then that you can forgive me. It's like you need someone of your own to die in order to forgive someone. To me.. that is messed up. Why need bloodshed in order to forgive? Why can't he just forgive?

I would understand if Jesus acted as mediator for God and Man. Being born as a human, show the way... grow old, and die. I would understand that.. but that God demands his son's sacrifice, blood, and so on to save us...using that blood as substitute.  It just doesn't make sense. It is like God demands blood for blood.  A bloodthirsty God requiring bloodshed/death to be able to forgive us? It just doesn't make sense.. Why can't he just forgive us, after sending a mediator, to show us the way. Why need bloodshed, death, and so on, in order to save us? That part doesn't make sense.

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newgene87

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Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2012, 11:59:24 PM »

It doesn't make sense.. to be honest.

The same concept applies... for example.. if I sin against you, and you cannot forgive me unless your own biological son, The good one, kills (tortured/murdered)  himself to save me, the bad child and it is only then that you can forgive me. It's like you need someone of your own to die in order to forgive someone. To me.. that is messed up. Why need bloodshed in order to forgive? Why can't he just forgive?

I would understand if Jesus acted as mediator for God and Man. Being born as a human, show the way... grow old, and die. I would understand that.. but that God demands his son's sacrifice, blood, and so on to save us...using that blood as substitute.  It just doesn't make sense. It is like God demands blood for blood.  A bloodthirsty God requiring bloodshed/death to be able to forgive us? It just doesn't make sense.. Why can't he just forgive us, after sending a mediator, to show us the way. Why need bloodshed, death, and so on, in order to save us? That part doesn't make sense.

I understand your concern. It doesnt "make sense". But a sure scripture

Isaiah 55:8-9
For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways,
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

There are just some things we will not grasp. But the fact that Christ went through that suffering, torment, torture and sacrifice - it makes me Love God even more. But as far as shedding blood... It's scripture

Leviticus 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

It's Law and Scripture. But this was referring to Animals. But the Will of God called for something better

Hebrews 10:4-6
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

Shedding blood is important though

Hebrews 9:22
and with blood almost all things are purified according to the law, and apart from blood- shedding forgiveness doth not come.

It was atonement for souls. But Christ died for sinners, for the world, for redemption, mercy - and this is SURE because He gave his life. That is truly good news. It's not enough for him to live a great life, preach teach, pave the way, live an old life and die. But sacrifice himself for the world

Hebrews 9:12
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Now, for the weak at heart, this can be cruelty to animals and unfair but this is the way for "life for life". But not an animal for one person, but a Righteous Man for MANY. It's truly the Gospel. So i thank Jesus for doing that, not jus for me but for the world

Romans 5:7-10
For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

It may not make so much sense; but what makes sense to me is Jesus give his life as a ransom for mine and the worlds. Its Love

Eugene
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Samson

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Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2012, 12:00:49 AM »

I have a question that has been bothering me... If God wanted to forgive us, why can't he just forgive us just like that, like he asks us to forgive others. Why does he need to have his Son tortured and die in order to forgive us. It just doesn't make sense? i need your insight on this. Thanks so much.

Denise

Hi Denise,

God does just forgive us, forgiveness is a done deal according to Revelation. 13:8(" the Lamb Slain from the foundation of the World.") See: 1Peter. 1:19,20. We were already forgiven from before the Foundation of the World, but unfortunately or fortunately We are Accountable for Our Sins.

Jesus mentions being Chastised or Corrected from the Greek word Kolasin which is derived from Kolazo literally meaning "to prune with a view to improving us." He never used the Greek Word Timoria which means a severe penalty or punishment, although that word is mentioned in Hebrews addressing believers.

I wish, quite often that God didn't plan for us to suffer in the many ways We often do, I don't enjoy it. Sometimes, I feel like what's mentioned in the verses listed below, specifically Romans. 9:19.


Rom 9:18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Apparently, God knows We need or require the suffering & chastening We experience in this Life for our correction. Most of Mankind will have to wait for the Fulfillment of Isaiah, 26:9, the inhabitants of the World learning righteousness from His Judgements, matters being set straight.

Just consider for a minute that Satan was created wicked, the destroyer, the waster, a liar & murderer from the beginning. He couldn't do otherwise and yet He will suffer severe correction & purification of His Carnal self in order to be transformed and become righteous.

Also, no one can truly and fully forgive anyone without God's Spirit enabling them to do so.

Stephen certainly couldn't forgive the Religious Leaders on His own. Act 7:58  And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
Act 7:59  And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60  And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

It all boils down to the fact that We are accountable for Our mistakes, whether planned or unplanned including even foolish mistakes leading to accidents, even when making what We think are the best possible choices that don't turn out the way We thought. That's the way God thought it was best to proceed.

Often, I don't particularly like it, but it continues to happen, for almost 56 years in My case. Why didn't God just make us Morally, spiritually & physically flawless with the inability to Sin. I really don't fully know, but one day We all will, in the meantime, your guess is as good as mine.  ;)

Carry On & may God assist you in your endeavor to cope with this difficult experience entitled: Life. Samson.

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Samson

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Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2012, 12:17:51 AM »

Denise,

Just a short excerpt from Ray, The Lake of Fire, Part 2(The origin of Sin) might shed some of the light, if even only a fraction towards Your inquiry. Read Below !

It was not possible for Satan NOT TO SIN -- he was created for the express purpose of being God’s Adversary, and so, of course, he was a sinner "FROM THE BEGINNING"!

It was not possible for Adam and Eve NOT TO SIN -- they were created for the express purpose of being molded into the "image of God;" and so of course, they had to eat of the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and evil or they would have NEVER reached this first spiritual step in becoming LIKE GOD (in His IMAGE,) a step of paramount DIVINE REQUISITE:

    "And the LORD God said, Behold [consider, to perceive, to know, to understand], the man is BECOME AS ONE OF US [Hebrew for ‘God’ is elohiym which is the plural of elowahh, hence ‘us’], TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL..." (Gen. 3:22).

Knowing "good and evil" is one of the most essential requisites in being formed in the image of God. To truly "know" both good and evil they HAD to partake of its source, which was the "TREE of the knowledge of good and evil," which then DEMANDED that they SIN in order to obtain this "knowledge." NO OTHER TREE IN THE GARDEN POSSESSED THIS NEEDED KNOWLEDGE!

And so it was GOD, and none other than GOD, Who intended from the beginning that Satan and man SIN! That does not make God a sinner, for a sin is a "mistake," a "missing of the mark," a "falling short of the glory of God," and God has NEVER MADE A MISTAKE OR FALLEN SHORT OF TOTAL PERFECTION! God knew what He was doing and how things would turn out BEFORE He created ANYTHING! "Declaring the end from the beginning..." (Isa. 46:10). Satan and man are "accountable" for their sins, because they sinned willingly from their heart, but God takes "responsibility" for their sins, and therefore had already provided them a Saviour BEFORE the foundation of the world:

    "But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, but was manifested in these last times for you" (I Pet. 1:19-20).

    "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb [Christ] slain from the FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD" (Rev. 13:8).

Is anyone so naive and blind as to believe that God had prepared a Lamb, a Sacrifice, His SON, to be slain for the sins of the world at a time when theologians would have us believe God didn’t even KNOW there was shortly coming such a thing as SIN? God knew; God is smart! It was God Who created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It was God Who placed it right in the middle of the garden to catch Eve’s eye. It was God Who made the tree particularly attractive and desirable. It was God who placed in the humans the desires and passions that would CAUSE them to partake of the forbidden fruit. It was God who placed Satan the serpent in the garden to tempt Eve and fill her head with the glories of enlightenment. It was God Who had ALREADY made preparation for their salvation through the slain Lamb of God.

Only ignorant and foolish theologians would ever charge God of being ignorant of the conduct and behavior of His own creation. It was not the temptation or deception entering INTO Eve that caused her to sin and bring separation from her Creator and God. It was what was already in her that caused her to sin. Proof:

    "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies" (Mat. 15:19).

    Notice it: "And when the woman saw [in her heart] that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eye [in her heart], and a tree to be desired [in her heart] to make one wise [an idol of the heart], she took [’For out of the heart proceed ... thefts...’] of the fruit thereof, and did eat" (Gen. 3:6).

Did you notice that last phrase "...and did eat"? It was not the "eating" of the fruit that made her a sinner -- she had ALREADY sinned by looking, lusting, and fantasizing about her potential wisdom. It was AFTER she sinned that she "did eat."

The good news is that all of our suffering is for a grand purpose and will ultimately bring huge rewards.

Carry On, Samson.

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Kat

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Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2012, 01:27:21 AM »


Denise, just think for a minute what human being are having to endure in this life... we have people in here saying all the time that it just isn't fair what humans are suffering and what kind of God would do that to His creation. Well it seems that an all wise God has determined that what is happening in the world is necessary for the ultimate proper end development of this human race.

BUT does He stand back and put us through the ringer, so to speak, and say that's just the way it has to be? NO! He did not. He worked into His plan what He knew, as a perfect just God, would be necessary to prove what He was doing would not be done without a tremendous sacrifice on His part. He created a Son, someone who could relate to this human race in body and speech (which the Father can not), made Him greater than we can imagine. Then made Him lower than angels and into a human fleshly being. Now you say...

Quote
I would understand if Jesus acted as mediator for God and Man. Being born as a human, show the way... grow old, and die. I would understand that.. but that God demands his son's sacrifice, blood, and so on to save us...using that blood as substitute.  It just doesn't make sense. It is like God demands blood for blood.  A bloodthirsty God requiring bloodshed/death to be able to forgive us? It just doesn't make sense..

And so for God to come down and just to live this life and die of old age should be enough for us from God, right? Do you really think that people that have suffered greatly in this life through all manners of evil would think He did something special, after they had to suffer so much? I could see how they would think God absolutely did not understand what they had to endure, and maybe they would be right. BUT He does understand because of what He DID endure. No person can come before God when they give account and say 'you just don't know what it's like to suffer so much,' no person can say that.

He suffered one of the most horrible deaths, not because He was "a blood thirsty" God, but because He loves us so much He was willing to do whatever it took to prove it and show us... and that was that our GOD became literal flesh, how much degradation is that, but no that was not enough, as He also died a brutal death. To question this ultimate act of humility and look on it as an act of anything less than absolute love is despicable.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Gina

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Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2012, 02:59:08 AM »

It doesn't make sense.. to be honest.

The same concept applies... for example.. if I sin against you, and you cannot forgive me unless your own biological son, The good one, kills (tortured/murdered)  himself to save me, the bad child and it is only then that you can forgive me. It's like you need someone of your own to die in order to forgive someone. To me.. that is messed up. Why need bloodshed in order to forgive? Why can't he just forgive?

I would understand if Jesus acted as mediator for God and Man. Being born as a human, show the way... grow old, and die. I would understand that.. but that God demands his son's sacrifice, blood, and so on to save us...using that blood as substitute.  It just doesn't make sense. It is like God demands blood for blood.  A bloodthirsty God requiring bloodshed/death to be able to forgive us? It just doesn't make sense.. Why can't he just forgive us, after sending a mediator, to show us the way. Why need bloodshed, death, and so on, in order to save us? That part doesn't make sense.

Hey Denise,

Long time no see.  I hope school's going well for you.  I've been thinking about you. :)

There's more than one question up there. ;) 

It isn't that it doesn't make sense.  We ask questions like this because we don't like the way God does things.

No greater love has any man than he lay down his life for his friends.

And the way he died....

Who else in history has ever done such a thing?  It certainly perks a person's ears up.  It's like that proverbial bell that you can't unring.  It's stuck there in the brain and going to take the rest of our natural lives to not just figure it out but to believe it...

Romans 10:6   But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias said, Lord, who has believed our report?

I agree with Kat.  As Ray pointed out clearly, God did not force Jesus to die. 

John 10


15 As the Father knows me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

17 Therefore does my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No man takes it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Jesus appears to be saying he was commanded of His Father to lay down his life, but God did not FORCE this on Jesus.  Jesus OBEYED that commandment by VOLUNTARILY laying down his life. 


Jesus always did what pleased His father.

7 Then said Jesus to them again, Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10The thief comes not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd gives his life for the sheep.

12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep, and flees: and the wolf catches them, and scatters the sheep.

13 The hireling flees, because he is an hireling, and cares not for the sheep.

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.




John 8


28 Then said Jesus to them, When you have lifted up the Son of man, then shall you know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself ; but as my Father has taught me, I speak these things.

Jesus acknowledges right there that his obedience to laying down of his life (voluntarily) is not of himself, but He is doing as his Father TAUGHT him.  He was not forced.  Sounds to me like he was imitating his Father... yes?

29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father has not left me alone; FOR I DO ALWAYS THOSE THINGS THAT PLEASE HIM.


It's exactly what Alex said: But with Jesus He didn’t have to die. I mean God can save humanity without anybody having to die on the cross to do it. Why did He do it? To show us how much He loves us! I mean when there is no real compunction that something needs to be done and you volunteer to do it, just because you want to prove to somebody your love… I mean that is pretty profound.     http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=11521.0

All I can say is...


IT CERTAINLY GETS A PERSON'S ATTENTION, DOESN'T IT!

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Revilonivek

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Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2012, 12:55:05 PM »

Jesus did not have free will either, nor do we. We are subject to God's will, according to scriptures. Technically, Jesus did not lay down his life voluntarily. He just obeyed. He had to. The whole murder/death sounds awfully like guilt. Not Love. The purpose is to guilt the audience to convert. I mean... If he didn't die a brutal death. You wouldn't feel guilt and feel bad for what happened to Jesus for everything he stood for.

Now... Even with animal sacrifices in old testament, that doesn't make sense either. Scriptures say God love the smell of burnt flesh and it satisfies his anger. They often require you to sacrifice lambs and you are to take the lamb into your home to care for for a while, enough time for you to connect to the lamb and then once you bond to the lamb, you must sacrifice it. It's used to guilt you for sinning. The slaughter of innocent animals to satisfy God who need to smell burning flesh as a fragrant  incense to soothe his anger toward you? The same applies to Jesus. To guilt you that bec of your sinning, jesus must die to soothe Gods anger toward you and be able to be forgiven? It does not make sense....


Same applies to Adam and Eve story.... They are new creation, they are always learning...And need contant teaching and they will make mistakes bec they are babes in Christ, they need good parent who is always there for them to help them along the way. Not cut them off bec of one sin. God is their parent in this case.


My point is... Our children are clean slates... When they make a mistake, we teach them, we are there for them, we show them the way. We don't banish them into exile and disappear from their sight and only communicate thru prophets to communicate with their children? They need love, care and attention and someone present to be there for them to learn from their mistakes. We know that they don't thrive as well without guidance and love. The need constant contact from their parent to know they are loved.


According to Genesis, Adam and Eve sinned once and was banished from garden of Eden for thousands of years, severe punishment and people have not seen God the Father in physical sense since. We rely on prophets, true and fake ones to lead us, we take their word for what God wants... A good Father will not abandon his children like that where blind faith is required to take in comfort that God is there. It's like an absent father who only shows evidence of his own existence through a book of scriptures and nothing else....


Think abt it.. We learn from our parents. We thrive best with parents present and constant contact to make sure you grow up right. We take in what our parents teach us and we become like them.

Same concept applies... Adam and Eve made a mistake, they were babes in Christ and God Knew that. He banished them and left them to fend for themselves and they end up relying on people  who are prophets who say they talk to Father. It's a horrible way to teach someone how to live right. We are mirrors of people we look up to. If Father was here constantly and we see him, and we get advice, lessons and so on, we would be better off. We don't treat our children like Father did to Adam and eve. Adam and eve were toddlers in a Christian sense. We don't do that to our toddlers either. We love them, we train them, we teach them, we explain, we learn thru mistakes best. You don't just cut them off. ESP when they are babes. They sinned once and that was it. Such a cruel and mean God to cut his children like that ESP when they have to learn and need his guidance. This is not right nor does it make sense... I think this is their way to explain why we can't see or talk to God and only the holy ones does?


Like I said, it doesn't make sense... Im having a hard time.

Denise
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Gina

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Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2012, 01:03:59 PM »

My sister Cheri's going through the same thing you are right now.  She doesn't like God very much right now.  I've been there.  I will pray for you. :)
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Craig

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Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2012, 01:12:07 PM »

I know this is not what you want to hear but  "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord"

Quote
We don't do that to our toddlers either. We love them, we train them, we teach them, we explain, we learn thru mistakes best.

And then they become adults and sometimes, kill, rape, lie, cheat, steal, cause wars, gossip, show their tempers, abuse themselves, etc. etc.  Works real well doesn't it?  You said it "we learn thru mistakes best."  Isn't that what the purpose of this existence comes down too? Learning through our mistakes and trials is a process of our creation.

Now to your original question on why His Son had to be tortured and killed? Honestly that question has haunted me too and the attempts to explain it to my satisfaction have come up short. There seems to be more to this than we see, the answer that I will give you is I don't know, but I trust it has/had a very grand and necessary purpose.

Craig

Craig
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onelovedread

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Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2012, 01:16:37 PM »

Denise
You ask why does God need to have his Son tortured and die in order to forgive us. I find an answer to that when I read the book of Hebrews. Here are a couple of passages that help me, and I hope they help you too.

Hebrews 7: 26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

Hebrews 9: 11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal (should be translated eonian) redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.


Hebrews 2: 10 In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered.

Hebrews 4: 14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are —yet he did not sin.

I hope this at least leads you to a different perspective in searching for an answer to your question, Denise.
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Gina

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Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2012, 01:31:45 PM »

One thing it has done for me is, it makes me NEVER want to torture another human being, etc., that way. 
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Revilonivek

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Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2012, 06:13:34 PM »

It'll take time...I have a boat load that bothers me too. For example.. slavery.

Israelities supports slavery of other races but forbid slavery of their own people. There are scriptures that they don't see slaves as human beings but property. To me that is racist.

That is what they believe God wants.. Does that make God racist too? Supports slavery of other races but not their own people? What does that say about God?

Leviticus 25:44-46

King James Version (KJV)

44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.

45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.

46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

There are a boatload that bothers me.. OT seems to refer to man's carnal heart, not God.

Please continue to pray for me. I'll need it. Thanks so much.

Denise
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space.ace.jase

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Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2012, 06:51:35 PM »

My sister Cheri's going through the same thing you are right now.  She doesn't like God very much right now.  I've been there.  I will pray for you. :)

Hi Denise,

I've spend a time hating God but after a time you will understand that God does everything out of love (we just don't really see it).

As a child I remember yelling at my mum saying I hated her (she made me take a shower- how dare she) but as I grew older I see why, but at the time I didn't understand.

Don't worry too much God will show you in time!

God bless,
Jase
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Revilonivek

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Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2012, 07:09:30 PM »

Thanks to everyone who responded. I am indeed going through a hard time.

I know that children are smarter than we take them for. They are capable of understanding if you take the time to explain. My Dad would tell me, as a child, that I wouldn't understand if he explained, but it was so clear that even I could see what's going on. Children are smarter than you think they are. That is why fear is an efficient tool when wanting to keep people in place.  Most adults don't bother because it's work and more time to explain. You who already have children know that Kids are more likely to rebel if they don't get the answer to why. They are naturally curious..The question "Why" is the key. Once they get the why answered, it is all good.

Most kids are not likely to rebel if parents take the time to explain why instead of saying... Because I say so without explaining.

Kids don't' learn this way. In school, they ask a lot of why, what, who, where, when questions, they learn best this way. They get answers this way. They are scientists by nature. If they don't get the answer they are looking for, they will rebel(experiment) to learn the reason why.

So therefore, with God. We are not stupid.  He is just saying.. Because I say so... unless it's really men who  hate those who question, and because once they question, it raises more questions, and more questions than answers causes problems when trying to keep a religion. That is why they create ideas that cause fear, to keep it from sprouting as much as possible.

We all are getting smarter and smarter as generations pass by. We have rights to freedom of speech, we are able to voice our concerns freely, voice our ideas freely and so on, and these people back then did not have that right. If they ever did, they would be stoned to death and you know it. We know a lot more than these people of the OT and NT ever did. The last time church ruled was in the Dark ages and that was not a peaceful age to live through. The bible raises more questions than answers. That's for sure. It just doesn't make sense. They just kill people who ask questions. Simple as that. It's evident throughout the bible and throughout history.

How do I know God is what Bible says God is? That is the question.

Pray for me. Thanks so much for all that has responded. Thanks.

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mharrell08

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Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2012, 08:58:41 PM »

Denise,

When a person has the mindset you have regarding God right now, I've found there's really nothing any one person can say to bring you out of it. That's another aspect of the story of Job...Job was not satisfied with anything anyone had to say until he heard it from God Himself.

I see this not only on the forum from time to time but also people that I associate with. It's not a bad thing to feel this way and you're not a bad person for asking. God is not a man who is thin-skinned when someone doesn't like or understand His ways. He'll explain all to each and every one of us in due time. That is the only thing I would say to be uplifted about...knowing that one day, all these questions will be answered. I think as long as that hope is strong in you, it can help keep you in a good state of mind. Just my thoughts.



Marques
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Revilonivek

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Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2012, 09:19:26 PM »

Marques, You are right.

Believe me, I ask this question often in prayer. God is the only one who can change my mind about this subject about HIM.  It is all up to him. It is his turn now. It's all in the air. I made the move, now it's his turn. I am really passionate about finding out what the truth is. God is just making it so hard for me is all. Patience is a virtue. right?

It is all those many questions on my mind.  It just doesn't make sense.. I am waiting for God to make it all make sense. :) All in due time, like you say, like the bible says.


Denise

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