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if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
newgene87:
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on August 23, 2012, 02:28:19 PM ---As someone who has been forced to dive in, head first into everything science, the study of the human body, the world on a microscopic level and very mathetmatical, "logical" and scientific way, I can assure you, there is a God.
It baffles me that any of my fellow friends/students/colleagues could believe there is no God. I've learned that in talking with most, almost all of them believe in some creator or higher being. How could you not? It's absolutely illogical when you are privileged to the intricate beautifies and absolutely stupifying complexities of life, the human body, plants, the universe and it's laws etc.. I also find that most of them who don't believe in any particular God such as Jesus or Allah or what have you, don't because of how religion has portrayed these "Gods."
Even more surprising, most that don't believe at all, which isn't too many, don't believe simply because they cannot separate the idea of God from religion. To them, God IS religion and so because religion is often times stupid, illogical and perpetuates idiotic doctrines that the thinking and rational man see's right through, they are turned off by it and so reject God in rejecting religion.
Religion has made it to easy for the thinking man not to believe in God.
If you can come to the conclusion that I have devised here, if you can follow this train of thought then by very nature of knowing there must be a God, take it to the next level and ask yourself, would this God reach out to the creation He created and try to communicate with them? If you're thinking, "yes," It would make sense for a God to reach out to the ones He's created, then ask yourself, in what way shape or form did He communicate to us?
Maybe the bible would read a lot different, had Jesus Come now, in the 21st century where humanity has advanced in knowledge. Do you think God would have told us, like He did the people of old, that it was His nose that created the universe? Or perhaps He would have told us, that He did it with a big bang. Spinning atomic particles together, faster and faster, collapsing them inward on themselves and creating an explosion of epic proportions that would hurl into existence the universe and all it's wonders. Just maybe.. there are so many "x factors" that your tiny little brain could never account for. That goes for all of us.
Perhaps that is why it was wisely stated; My ways are not your ways and the wisdom of man is FOOLISHNESS in the sight of God. We are ANTS compared to Him yet He has every desire and intention of turning us into spiritual giants like Himself.
I personally believe that with what i know, of the world from a scientific perspective (though it is foolishness unto God, I am not boasting or uplifting this wisdom upward) that there is a God and I believe He did reach out to us. He reached out to us in the form of Jesus Christ, in the form of "I AM" of the old testament.
After you come to the conclusion that it is foolish to say there is no God then you just need to ask yourself, would He reach out to His creation if He is there? If He would then you need to figure out, in which way did He do it then? Was it buddhism? Hinduism? Islam? Judaism? Christianity?
Just some more thoughts for think over.
Hope it helps.
God bless,
Alex
--- End quote ---
GLORIOUS Alex. I love this. Everything points to A God in some way. I go the route of the God of Scriptures - cause it truly Includes EVERYONE. No doubt, it is centered on a "Jewish" sense, or "Hebraic" thought, but even Jesus great-great-great-great-great-greater than great grandma was RUTH who was a Moabite. It's not like the nation of Israel was PURE (by the flesh Israel). When many and various women were of different descendants. Speaking of Moab, remember that's Lots firstborn from his daughter (yikes). But geneologies and things according to "MAN" are Vain. It's all vain. So is religion. Whatever gives YOU peace, a reason to Love, a reason to build, a reason to share - go for it. I respect that Muslims pray 7 times a day. That's HIGH respect. They seek knowledge and if it's builds a strong morale go for it. But thats it; BE IT. For me and most of us - "Jesus is the Way, the truth and the life". I find peace in that. I love more; its changed my life good. But with no doubt - CREATION points to a God. Like ray said, for me - the HUMAN EYE screams a God. The function of my brain and the eyes is intelligence of a being, spirit, or something. Well that could lead to "how do you know if your God is THE God"?? Well many answers can come from that - but I will respond, find yours and find life and peace in Him :D :D.
Eugene
Gina:
One more thing and then, I'm finished with this thread because it's annoying me. :)
Denise, You say that maybe the Jews have God all wrong and they don't really know God, so what you're saying is a bunch of Jews all got together one day and decided to tell the entire world that they were the chosen ones of God, right? Wrong!
If you were going to write the entire world a bunch of spin about how well you know God and what God wants and desires, the LAST thing you'd do is put yourself in a bad light. No, you'd make yourself out to be the greatest thing since sliced bread, wouldn't you? I mean, if you wanted to convince everyone to follow your "god"?
Denise, the scriptures were inspired by God and the OT is FILLED with things that the Jews did that displeased God. They were constantly being chastised by God. Moses wasn't even permitted to cross over! You mean to tell me that if you were writing a book about yourself you'd put all that negative stuff in it about yourself, and put yourself in opposition to the ONE TRUE GOD if you're trying to get people to follow YOU and YOUR ways? I don't think so.
And more than that, in the NT Jesus commends not ONE SINGLE Jew for their faith. He does commend people who were not Jewish for their faith.
What does that tell you?
I hope that helps a little. I gotta run...........
Revilonivek:
--- Quote from: Craig on August 23, 2012, 07:27:18 AM ---Denise, after reading and digesting your posts I have came to the following conclusion.
You don't really have a problem with God, your problem is with religion.
If I was you I would seperate your thoughts from what religion teaches and seek God. Where do you find him? Well not with religion, it is an institution of man. Find him all around you, in your thoughts and heart. Try and quit sweating about things you can't do anything about or even understand for that matter, forget the past; you can't do anything about it. Concentrate on the things you can control. Be a good mother, wife, friend. Do right to those around you but don't force your opinion on them. Seek good, do good, listen to the small still voice inside and live your life. God will handle the rest.
Craig
--- End quote ---
Craig,
That is exactly how I feel. Exactly that. Religion ruins man's perception of God to the point even I cannot trust any religion at all, it is so insane. Even I can see that. It is very clear. I just want to focus on loving everyone no matter what differences they have. It is not up to me to judge. The Jews people were so intolerant of sin, no room to learn from mistakes, no room to grow, no room to be able to learn. Just shut up and follow, or risk God's wrath or die. It's basically that. No mercy. We learn best from mistakes. Jews are intolerant of mistakes.
World prob would be a better place without Religion. Jesus did not start a religion, people did decades after he left. It's like Jesus tried to stop religion from ruling people's lives. there it comes again, religion starts up, and in many places and the world is practically worse than it ever was. I'm just tired... fed up.. with the atrocities that came with religion's history. It should be gone. The truth is.. we know deep down, we are supposed to love one another.. even children knew that without even trying.
Alex,
I do believe in God but I don't believe any religion knows who God is either but they think they do. They've abused that right too much to a point where religion are unreliable. Maybe that is God's plan for mankind. Wear them out with all crazy religions out there to a point where they all give up religion and start depending of everything that is of God. Love.
Revelation did mention that men will weep at the loss of the powers of the whore. (whore is probably the mother of all religions), they also say the men will get over it after a period of time grieving. The whore is made bare. Sometimes, Less is more. :) It is a thought.
Greg and Gene,
Yes, I have to learn to look at OT as example of the craziness that religion does to people and be much better than that. Someone who is more compassionate, merciful, forgiving, kind, etc. But what bothers me is that they say God approves those carnal behavior and enforces it as Law of God. That's a dangerous move on their part, especially when they say they are the most blessed of all races. But what the heck. It's all in the past. Jesus has come, he's set the path right and all we have to do is learn from the carnal heart of religions and let it go... walk the narrow path. I find that the more I let go of religion, the more free I feel. I feel more able to love other people than I ever did. When I was immersed in religion, I was prejudiced. the outside of the cup was clean, but not the inside...every since I left religion, I felt more focused on the inside, cleaning it slowly, one at a time.. and I feel more free than ever before, less prejudiced for sure. I just hurt for those who are stuck in religion's trap. It bothers me to see them stuck.. with the scotomas. unable to see. It's a prison. I know Jesus is the way. He didn't hold on a religion. I should do the same.
Gina,
I think I understand now.. Old testament are just examples of the craziness of religion that does to people that still goes on today. we should take the high road and focus on unconditional love for other people like Jesus taught. Thanks for that perception.
Denise
Revilonivek:
John,
What if the purpose of scripture in OT is to teach us that religion does not work as proven many times in scripture? The problem is probably because we take every word in scripture literally and not get the point of the MSG the scripture is trying to state.
Like you see it all the time, religions take every scripture literally and not get the metaphor aspect of Ot? What It is saying... Religion does not work.... Religion doesn't work.... Look at how crazy they look... Like there's stories where they say when you sin, God punishes you, but really God punishes the people close to you to punish you for your sins...
It could explain why God of Ot seems so different from new testament. A god of love. Compared toa blood thirsty god?
Maybe God chose the Jews to teach us why religion never work? Theres many divisions, many different religions, and one one of them are intolerant of eachother. There is no love for other races but their own. Abuses Gods authority to meet their own needs?Maybe we are watching and learning from the Jewish people from a standpoint, as if watching them live their lives as carnal as possible? What if that is the purpose of Ot scripture? To help us let go of religion?
What kind of loving God becomes jealous and demands Abraham kill his son to prove his love for God and then Interrupt the killing seconds before? Issac was the innocent one. Imagine the emotional trauma Isaac got for seeing dad try to kill him. Imagine how much hurt abraham had to go thru bec he had to kill his son. That is not love.
That's a jealous God that wants to traumatize you as much as possible. Even those who did what Abraham did in our current time period is labeled crazy for trying to kill his son bec God told him to. That is one example of craziness. You remember andrea yates and many others?
Jesus taught compassion, mercy, kindness, etc opposite of what "God" of the old testament seemed to teach. Like God punished king David by killing his firstborn as punishment, Jews believes that whatever bad happens in your life. it is God punishing you for your sins. It is Gods wrath...but baby was born sick... According to scripture and only lived a week.
We get babies who are born sick even today but their lives are saved, thanks to medical technology.King David's time did not know how to to help the child, so they count the death of their firstborn as punishment from God. According to Samuel.
Heres another example.. God punishes all the firstborns of Egyptians because pharaoh wouldn't release the slaves... God punished the firstborns for someone else sins.. The real reason they died is not because of God. The thing is, firstborns eat a larger portion than younger children does. Thr red tide that they count as blood, caused thr poisoning of the food they ate. Anmals got sick and so on...It made them sick that many died. They did not understand red tide...red tide causes so many problems. You can look up red tide.
Anyways. What kind of God punishes the innocents for the sins of someone else? They have every right o live and they are children?!! That is not love. Jesus teaches love, and Ot teaches a bloodthirsty and jealous God and Jesus is the selfsame God of Ot and nt It sounds like maybe Jesus was schizophrenic or we didn't get the whole story.
Unless we are looking at the scripture wrong and not getting it?
newgene87:
--- Quote from: Revilonivek on August 23, 2012, 07:25:09 PM ---John,
What if the purpose of scripture in OT is to teach us that religion does not work as proven many times in scripture? The problem is probably because we take every word in scripture literally and not get the point of the MSG the scripture is trying to state.
Like you see it all the time, religions take every scripture literally and not get the metaphor aspect of Ot? What It is saying... Religion does not work.... Religion doesn't work.... Look at how crazy they look... Like there's stories where they say when you sin, God punishes you, but really God punishes the people close to you to punish you for your sins...
It could explain why God of Ot seems so different from new testament. A god of love. Compared toa blood thirsty god?
Maybe God chose the Jews to teach us why religion never work? Theres many divisions, many different religions, and one one of them are intolerant of eachother. There is no love for other races but their own. Abuses Gods authority to meet their own needs?Maybe we are watching and learning from the Jewish people from a standpoint, as if watching them live their lives as carnal as possible? What if that is the purpose of Ot scripture? To help us let go of religion?
What kind of loving God becomes jealous and demands Abraham kill his son to prove his love for God and then Interrupt the killing seconds before? Issac was the innocent one. Imagine the emotional trauma Isaac got for seeing dad try to kill him. Imagine how much hurt abraham had to go thru bec he had to kill his son. That is not love.
That's a jealous God that wants to traumatize you as much as possible. Even those who did what Abraham did in our current time period is labeled crazy for trying to kill his son bec God told him to. That is one example of craziness. You remember andrea yates and many others?
Jesus taught compassion, mercy, kindness, etc opposite of what "God" of the old testament seemed to teach. Like God punished king David by killing his firstborn as punishment, Jews believes that whatever bad happens in your life. it is God punishing you for your sins. It is Gods wrath...but baby was born sick... According to scripture and only lived a week.
We get babies who are born sick even today but their lives are saved, thanks to medical technology.King David's time did not know how to to help the child, so they count the death of their firstborn as punishment from God. According to Samuel.
Heres another example.. God punishes all the firstborns of Egyptians because pharaoh wouldn't release the slaves... God punished the firstborns for someone else sins.. The real reason they died is not because of God. The thing is, firstborns eat a larger portion than younger children does. Thr red tide that they count as blood, caused thr poisoning of the food they ate. Anmals got sick and so on...It made them sick that many died. They did not understand red tide...red tide causes so many problems. You can look up red tide.
Anyways. What kind of God punishes the innocents for the sins of someone else? They have every right o live and they are children?!! That is not love. Jesus teaches love, and Ot teaches a bloodthirsty and jealous God and Jesus is the selfsame God of Ot and nt It sounds like maybe Jesus was schizophrenic or we didn't get the whole story.
Unless we are looking at the scripture wrong and not getting it?
--- End quote ---
One thing that is true....EVERYTHING you are speaking of in these posts -- RAY COVERS EVERYTHING. He really really does. how about you take time out - say a week or two. READ THROUGH THE ENTIRE LAKE OF FIRE SERIES. From the first paper to the last. Ray goes from Old Testament to the New Testament, nearly touching EVERYTHING. And if i can speak for everyone who's ACTUALLY READ his papers - they already know your concerns. The main thing Ray touches is that WE ALL have let go of IS RELIGION. so where is all this talk of Religion coming from??? Maybe you're getting this site mixed up with another site because Ray is sound on the church of today being totally false, babylon, "if the church teaches it, its false", he clears up heresies that were here BEFORE translations of the scripture. youre barking up the wrong tree honestly ::).
Just go through the Lake of Fire series (it's NOT just about the "Lake of Fire"); every word, have your bible with you, a strong concordance, a dictionary, notebooks - ray already fixes all this. WE LET GO OF RELIGION by coming out of Babylon, out of the church. hopefully i can speak for the faithful members here, AT THIS WEBSITE - WE are looking at the SCRIPTURES ALL THE RIGHT WAYS. so you can let go of the notion of religion - we all have. this is truly "bible-truths", the answer is, getting back to the Scriptures. And the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament Scriptures may speak of "Religion" but once you stumble upon the New Covenant, it's made clear and revealed
Again, i would love for Ray to speak for himself. His Lake of Fire series has to be the BEST TEACHING since the writings of Paul (well to me). ray is NOT my God, but he truly CLEARS UP RELIGION, IT'S DOCTRINES, CREEDS, THE WORLD'S SYSTEM - and He gets us ALL back to Jesus Christ and Truth.
So, take time to read all the series. This talk of Religion is foreign to this site.
Eugene
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