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[newgene87]

Did they "know" they were naked in Gen 2:25?  There was nothing wrong with their eyes.  They could look at themselves and each other and "see".  They were unashamed.  Why?  Because they didn't know any better or different.  They had no knowledge of good and evil.

Did Eve "know" about the tree?  It was planted in the middle of the garden so they would not miss it, and it looked awful good to them.  Did Eve know about the commandment?  Yes, she did.  Did she know what was in her heart to do?  Yes, "And seeing is the woman that the tree is good for food, and that it brings a yearning to the eyes, and is to be coveted as the tree to make one intelligent."  Lust of the Flesh, Lust of the Eye, the Pride of Life.  So we can't say Eve knew nothing.  She knew the tree, she knew the commandment, she knew what was in her heart to do.  When the temptation came, she did what was in her heart to do. 

The CLV translates Gen 3:7 And unclosing are their eyes, they two, and knowing are they that they are naked. And sewing are they fig leaves and making for themselves girdle skirts."  No longer not knowing better or different.  No longer 'unashamed'.  The knowledge of Good and Evil.

The LORD removes them from the garden and tells them what life is going to be like.  That is the EXPERIENCE of evil "whereby to humble" them, all the days of their lives.  There is also the knowledge of Good in the fruit of the tree.  It doesn't come without the knowledge of evil.  Niether does the knowledge of evil come without the knowledge of good.  It takes both.

One more thought that might be helpful, assuming any of the above has been.     God doesn't 'allow' evil, or 'turn evil into good', but INTENDS evil FOR good.  He's never thwarted, and always wins in the end.
     

VERY HELPFUL DAVE. thanks for the clarity. I build and grow to a fuller understanding of the scriptures.

and oh the wisdom we need to see that God "intends evil for Good"! Thanks for that, i will keep that in prayer. That's a hard saying! . yet True

thanks Dave
Eugene

[Gina]

Everybody

For whatever it's worth coming from me, Dave that was phenomenal. 

God gives us this day our daily bread, etc.  Let's do that again soon.

[onelovedread]

Is there a really difference between what Marques and Dave said?

[newgene87]

"There was nothing wrong with their eyes.  They could look at themselves and each other and "see".  "


"And Jesus said, For judgment I am come in this world, they they which see not, might see; and that they which see might be made blind. And of the Pharisees which were with Him heard these words, and said unto Him, ARE WE BLIND ALSO? Jesus said unto them, "If ye were blind, you should have not sin: but now you say WE see; therefore your sin remains." (John 9:39-41)

So were they "literally" blind? no. Where they spiritually and figuratively blind? surely. Was Jesus going to "literally" blind people? of course not

idk, Ray also taught that the scriptures were a parable. And Ray quoted Rev 3:17 with Adam and Eve. that they were "naked, blind and wretched". So Jesus tells the Laodicens to "anoint their eyes...that the may SEE" - so they were "literally" blind?

"Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not." (Isa 6:9). So wouldnt they only "perceive" till after their eyes were opened? so that would make them spiritually blind right?

I was following Ray on the "blind" deal.

and yes there was a difference. and im guessing I contradicted all the scriptures i quoted?

aye, another learning experience 
Eugene

[newgene87]

"There was nothing wrong with their eyes.  They could look at themselves and each other and "see".  "


"And Jesus said, For judgment I am come in this world, they they which see not, might see; and that they which see might be made blind. And of the Pharisees which were with Him heard these words, and said unto Him, ARE WE BLIND ALSO? Jesus said unto them, "If ye were blind, you should have not sin: but now you say WE SEE; therefore your sin remains." (John 9:39-41)

So were they "literally" blind? no. Where they spiritually and figuratively blind? surely. Was Jesus going to "literally" blind people? of course not

idk, Ray also taught that the scriptures were a parable. And Ray quoted Rev 3:17 with Adam and Eve. that they were "naked, blind and wretched". So Jesus tells the Laodicens to "anoint their eyes...that the may SEE" - so they were "literally" blind?

"Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not." (Isa 6:9). So wouldnt they only "perceive" till after their eyes were opened? so that would make them spiritually blind right?

I was following Ray on the "blind" deal.

and yes there was a difference. and im guessing I contradicted all the scriptures i quoted?

aye, another learning experience 
Eugene

[Gina]

"And Jesus said, For judgment I am come in this world, they they which see not, might see; and that they which see might be made blind.


You're pretty sharp, Eugene. 

I imagine they knew they were lacking something (indeed they were lacking). 

She looked and saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, so she knew that.  Why would she desire to be made wise if she thought she had wisdom?  Obviously she didn't have wisdom, because she didn't see the evil to outcome.  Dave In Tenn already established that much. 

Did she know Satan was tricking her with the lie?  No.  Did she know that she was being deceived by Satan's lie?  No.  And that's what we all have to learn.  Before our eyes are truly opened, we all know just enough to be dangerous. 

Satan tricks (cheated) us with lies, not the truth.  And, people can't be "tempted" with the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Trick:  a crafty or underhanded [crafty?] device, maneuver , or stratagem intended to deceive or cheat; artifice; ruse.

Satan doesn't like the truth and that's why the truth was never in him--not that he has never heard the truth.   Eve wasn't just tempted, she was thoroughly tricked and cheated.  She basically ate brownies laced with a little poo poo.    (Reference Craig's "brownie ingredients" analogy.)    All by design.  All for a grander purpose.  Satan meant it for evil, but God meant it for good.

[dave]

Wow. That was all good. Thanks. I understand now that they did have knowledge before they ate.

[Dave in Tenn]

Jesus said His words were Spirit and Life.  Ray said, if we don't see ourselves in the Old Testament, we have no idea about the depths of our own carnality.

Let's not get so caught up examining the trees (reading all the words) that we fail to see the forest (Spirit and Life).

 

[newgene87]

Thanks Gina and to that Dave   

Im seeking to make it past the flaming sword to the tree of Life! to Judgment I goooooo 

[Kenneth Clark]

 One more more thought.  It's 'preacher talk' to always equate obedience and disobedience with good and evil.  They are not always the same things.  GOOD and EVIL are the big picture.  Eve disobeyed and that is an evil, but "...grief and the groaning of your pregnancy..." is an evil, but not disobedience.
[/quote]

nice!

[lilitalienboi16]

So my paying attention to the words is getting me YET again. But this is coming out of the Scriptures. So reading through Genesis 3, i stumbled across this and it FINALLY caught my eye.

"and the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall NOT surely die (obvious lie): for God does know that in the day ye eat thereof, then (1)your eyes shall be opened, and (2) ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil." (Gen 3:4-5) and the rest was history. YET, this actually came to pass -  what Satan said would happen

(1) "and the eyes of them both WERE opened, and they knew that they were naked..." (Gen 3:7)
(2) "and Jehovah God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live to the age" (Gen 3:22)

So it seems to me that Satan told truth because what he said actually came to pass. It actually happened for one, and God attested to the other.

would I be on track to conclude that Satan started with a LIE and exhibited a truth to BEGUILE or deceive?? I feel like i discovered a tool to be aware of his "Travesty" and "trickery" ways (Ephesians 6:11). Trying not "to be ignorant of his device" (2 Corinthians 2:11). I've always been programmed to know Satan is only lies but here he actually told some truth; but lied to deceive with truth () yea, looks like a square circle . well, wondering if anyone else sees that. Thanks

Eugene

Well, let's pay a little MORE attetion to the words;

Satan says "IN THE DAY you eat thereof..." Meaning, that day that they eat this fruit, upon that very day, they will be as GOD is.

Unfortunately for adam and eve, even after eating the fruit, they were NOTHING like God. They are / were becoming like God but they were FAR from "BEING AS GOD."

Just something I was thinking about when I was looking over your question.

Satan lies, no doubt about it, but how deceitful is he? Meh... Deceitful alright, I Just don't know HOW FAR he goes.

[Gina]

You're welcome, Eugene.   (Not sure how or if you made sense of my last disjointed reply but it made sense to me... at the time.)

This has been another good thread.   I learned a lot more than I thought I would.  I like to personally thank everyone who contributed.

[newgene87]

About them "become as god" or becoming or whatever translation we choose (Youngs, concordat, Rotherham, kjv) does this have anything to do with

Psalms 82:6
I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are children of the Most High.

John 10:34-35
Jesus answered them, “ Is it not written in your law, “I said, ‘You are gods” ’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),

So didn't the "become" gods according to scripture?? Again, correct me according to these scriptures please - these are what I confide in

Eugene

[dave]

About them "become as god" or becoming or whatever translation we choose (Youngs, concordat, Rotherham, kjv) does this have anything to do with

Psalms 82:6
I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are children of the Most High.

John 10:34-35
Jesus answered them, “ Is it not written in your law, “I said, ‘You are gods” ’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),

So didn't the "become" gods according to scripture?? Again, correct me according to these scriptures please - these are what I confide in

Eugene

Yep

[Gina]

That's a great question. 

Satan was still leading Eve to believe a lie, and I believe she thought she would then be able to be independent of God.  Satan convinced her that God was holding out on her and this probably made her a little more than angry with God.  Can't you just imagine?

It's as Ray said:  God puts us in situations to prove to US who we are.  It's not that He doesn't know what we'll do or what we are. 

Gods, shmods.  We're lumps of clay.  That's the part Satan left out.  He lied by omission.

[lilitalienboi16]

About them "become as god" or becoming or whatever translation we choose (Youngs, concordat, Rotherham, kjv) does this have anything to do with

Psalms 82:6
I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are children of the Most High.

John 10:34-35
Jesus answered them, “ Is it not written in your law, “I said, ‘You are gods” ’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),

So didn't the "become" gods according to scripture?? Again, correct me according to these scriptures please - these are what I confide in

Eugene

I still think you're not paying attention to the words;

Become AS GOD.

Meaning to be like HIM, not be "gods." There are many "gods" but there is only ONE GOD. There is only ONE like HIM.

Being a god and being AS GOD are two different things.

Does that make sense?

If that wasn't your question, I apologize. That's what I understood as you asking/being confused about.

God bless,

Alex

[newgene87]

Satan says "IN THE DAY you eat thereof..." Meaning, that day that they eat this fruit, upon that very day, they will be as GOD is.

Unfortunately for adam and eve, even after eating the fruit, they were NOTHING like God. They are / were becoming like God but they were FAR from "BEING AS GOD."

Okay: this thought jogged in my head when I wasn't even thinking about it. Isn't that thought "adding" a meaning to the Hebrew word for day, which is YOM??? And after listening to Ray give a very lengthy new SCRIPTURAL meaning to the word Yom - it's not a "day", or that very day: but time period, could be moment, could be season, or years. And you said NOTHING like God. God said they were becoming like God, TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL IN THAT YOM. And which "yom" we're still in. For we know good and evil. So perhaps man would eat from the tree of life and live to the eons, he blocked it off - THIS EON. So the next eon is when we partake of that life: Aoinion Life. "Since it is APPOINTED for man to die" and "in Adam all die"

Psalms 82:6-7
I have said, Ye are gods (and scripture can't be broken);
and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men,
and fall like one of the princes.

So from Rays teaching on the Hebrew for day; we can't add a meaning to it. That's like saying on the 4th day, that very day, he created the sun. No, it's yom

Jus throwin that thought in, staying faithful to Rays teaching on yom. I just see the fact Satan said about theyre eyes opening and becoming as god, TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL (he didn't say like god, being all powerful and all knowing) and God said it happened and will happen; the way he planned. . Since it was appointed for man to die, for the reason the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world -  So he blocked the tree of life which one would eat and live to the eons;

1 John 5:11
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

Now if I took those scriptures out of context, please show it to me and I'll repent of it. I just saw the use of the SAME Hebrew word for day, yom, and staying faithful to scripture is critical. Seeing that it's all a parable anyway

Eugene

[lilitalienboi16]

Satan says "IN THE DAY you eat thereof..." Meaning, that day that they eat this fruit, upon that very day, they will be as GOD is.

Unfortunately for adam and eve, even after eating the fruit, they were NOTHING like God. They are / were becoming like God but they were FAR from "BEING AS GOD."

Okay: this thought jogged in my head when I wasn't even thinking about it. Isn't that thought "adding" a meaning to the Hebrew word for day, which is YOM??? And after listening to Ray give a very lengthy new SCRIPTURAL meaning to the word Yom - it's not a "day", or that very day: but time period, could be moment, could be season, or years. And you said NOTHING like God. God said they were becoming like God, TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL IN THAT YOM. And which "yom" we're still in. For we know good and evil. So perhaps man would eat from the tree of life and live to the eons, he blocked it off - THIS EON. So the next eon is when we partake of that life: Aoinion Life. "Since it is APPOINTED for man to die" and "in Adam all die"

Psalms 82:6-7
I have said, Ye are gods (and scripture can't be broken);
and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men,
and fall like one of the princes.

So from Rays teaching on the Hebrew for day; we can't add a meaning to it. That's like saying on the 4th day, that very day, he created the sun. No, it's yom

Jus throwin that thought in, staying faithful to Rays teaching on yom. I just see the fact Satan said about theyre eyes opening and becoming as god, TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL (he didn't say like god, being all powerful and all knowing) and God said it happened and will happen; the way he planned. . Since it was appointed for man to die, for the reason the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world -  So he blocked the tree of life which one would eat and live to the eons;

1 John 5:11
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

Now if I took those scriptures out of context, please show it to me and I'll repent of it. I just saw the use of the SAME Hebrew word for day, yom, and staying faithful to scripture is critical. Seeing that it's all a parable anyway

Eugene

Perhaps "NOTHING" was a bit of a strong word. I suppose, far off, from being "AS GOD" is perhaps more accurate. Even then, their knowledge of Good and evil, if it was even that at that very specific moment in time, was FAR OFF from God's knowledge of good and evil. So either way you look at it, they were not "As God" in that moment of time. That period of time, that day, that YOM. Whatever you would like to believe it to mean.

[lilitalienboi16]

Also, we know the word "Eternal" does not mean eternal because we know God did not give us ETERNAL LIFE, He gave us IMMORTALITY and AIONION LIFE [Age-Abiding Life] (For the elect) however, IMMORTALITY does NOT mean eternal life. It means "never to die," "never to be dying," "DEATH LESS NESS," which equates to being able to live forevermore but let's not confuse here what God has "given" us.

Out of context? I don't know.

[newgene87]

Satan says "IN THE DAY you eat thereof..." Meaning, that day that they eat this fruit, upon that very day, they will be as GOD is.

Unfortunately for adam and eve, even after eating the fruit, they were NOTHING like God. They are / were becoming like God but they were FAR from "BEING AS GOD."

Okay: this thought jogged in my head when I wasn't even thinking about it. Isn't that thought "adding" a meaning to the Hebrew word for day, which is YOM??? And after listening to Ray give a very lengthy new SCRIPTURAL meaning to the word Yom - it's not a "day", or that very day: but time period, could be moment, could be season, or years. And you said NOTHING like God. God said they were becoming like God, TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL IN THAT YOM. And which "yom" we're still in. For we know good and evil. So perhaps man would eat from the tree of life and live to the eons, he blocked it off - THIS EON. So the next eon is when we partake of that life: Aoinion Life. "Since it is APPOINTED for man to die" and "in Adam all die"

Psalms 82:6-7
I have said, Ye are gods (and scripture can't be broken);
and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men,
and fall like one of the princes.

So from Rays teaching on the Hebrew for day; we can't add a meaning to it. That's like saying on the 4th day, that very day, he created the sun. No, it's yom

Jus throwin that thought in, staying faithful to Rays teaching on yom. I just see the fact Satan said about theyre eyes opening and becoming as god, TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL (he didn't say like god, being all powerful and all knowing) and God said it happened and will happen; the way he planned. . Since it was appointed for man to die, for the reason the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world -  So he blocked the tree of life which one would eat and live to the eons;

1 John 5:11
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

Now if I took those scriptures out of context, please show it to me and I'll repent of it. I just saw the use of the SAME Hebrew word for day, yom, and staying faithful to scripture is critical. Seeing that it's all a parable anyway

Eugene

Perhaps "NOTHING" was a bit of a strong word. I suppose, far off, from being "AS GOD" is perhaps more accurate. Even then, their knowledge of Good and evil, if it was even that at that very specific moment in time, was FAR OFF from God's knowledge of good and evil. So either way you look at it, they were not "As God" in that moment of time. That period of time, that day, that YOM. Whatever you would like to believe it to mean.

Wow. Excuse me, but I got that teaching from ray and yom is yom. And again, adding an assumption; "..was FAR OFF from God's knowledge of good and evil" - of course, scripture says, "my thoughts are not your thoughts, and my ways are not your ways". So man doesn't have knowledge of good and evil yet? .... in THAT yom?....arent we all in Adam?

So, when will man have the "knowledge" of good and evil? In the next eon? Or is the next eon for judgment of good and evil? Seriously seeking an scriptural understanding.

And I said "Aionion Life in my post. I know the teaching of eternal. That was in the tree of life "...put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and LIVE OLAM (to the age, Aoinion, and never to die)..." (Gen 3:22).