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Kingdom of the heavens suffers violence"

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newgene87:
Finally reminded of another verse I am CONPLETELY confused over; what did Jesus mean by these verses????

Matthew 11:12
And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.

Luke 16:16
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

What is the meaning of the kingdom in connection with violence? And men "pressing into it"?? The only time I've heard this expounded was justifying "violence" among believers....and that seems so carnal. So seeking a truthful mean. Maybe Ray has spoke on it. Thanks everyone

Eugene

Gina:
Ray never spoke on this specifically. 

Sounds like Jesus is speaking to the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the scribes and everyone:  "Every man is forcing his way into it."  Or maybe he was speaking to only the men?

At first I thought He was pointing to the pharisees, sadducees and scribes, since he spoke of violence; seeing how the pharisees were always seeking something on Him to get Him out of their way so they could get on with "business" as usual.  But then you'd have to get out your big black magic marker and line through "every man is forcing his way into it."

Ray spoke of the crowds and how Jesus was constantly just mobbed...



GUILTY OF ALL excerpt:

But there’s even more than that. Actually you’re getting to it now. First let’s notice who He is addressing here. Let’s go back to the beginning, to chapter 5, where this whole sermon on the mount begins.

Matt. 5:1  And seeing the multitudes, He (Jesus) went up on a mountain...

He always went up into the mountains to get away from the crowds. I mean it isn’t like He didn’t like the valleys, the valleys are fine, He did it to get away from the crowds. You see it in every sense portrayed in the movies. Jesus Christ from the time He started His ministry was mobbed day and night for the rest of His life. Do you know that?

You see Him in the movies and you watch these TV shows about Christ, you see Him walking down the road with His twelve apostles, just talking. Walking through the village or down the street. No, that’s not the way it was. He was always mobbed! He couldn’t walk, He couldn’t get through the crowds sometimes. Why?  [Comment from attendee: Because He healed everybody.]  Exactly.

I mean if He were out there walking down the street... if someone told me, there was this guy healing people down in Nashville and before that He was healing people over in Montgomery or Birmingham. I would be, let me out of here. I’d say, Lord I’ve got these knees and ankles and You know all this stuff. He healed people by the thousands and thousands. All His ministry, all He did was heal people, and they just pressed Him.

The only way He could get away was to go up in the mountains or go out in a ship, to get away from the crowds. You know you can only take that for so many hours a day and you got to get away. Usually He Would sneak up in a mountain someplace. They would be, 'where did He go.' They would hang around because He would be back and then they would bring some more sick people, because that was the way it was.

"When His disciples came unto Him" (Matt 5:1). He was up there in the mountains with only His disciples. Now understand Christ only talked to the masses in parables. But that doesn’t mean He didn’t also talk to His disciples in parables. He certainly did
( http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.msg29049.html#msg29049 )

Gina:
(Side note:  Every time I read those transcripts of Ray's audios I start to well up a little.  It's amazing that someone was kind enough to take the time to type these articles up.  I know the amount of work that went into that task alone and I'm just so grateful.)

Ian 155:
There is a relation between seek and force  The God in you forces you by whatever means to take what is yours - I know this does not always work out in our idea of time,PLEASE GIVE ME WISDOM verses IN YOUR TIME Lord, but once the desire is seated within you than nothing the deceiver can say or do would make a difference to your "every step you take" - because it will be given to you, remember "Gift" and children...

My youngest wanted me to change her school,this was virtually impossible due to our location ,money - cost of books new uniform and the 1st response from the school being WE ARE FULL NO YOU CANT place your daughter in our school. I left it at that,then Rebecca my daughter would come and show me her status [on her phone] her present school was the school that turned us down,that got me stirred "how can you tell everyone you are in that school YOU are NOT" [My Misunderstanding was she wanted to be with her primary school friends]

Every day she would ask me if I had heard from that school? I would promptly say "you know the answer" Rebecca its "NO".Long story short, I got a phone call from the school out of the blue,asking me in to an interview there had been 2 kids that had left and so I went in knowing, with my current financial status that this was an interview that I knew the outcome was not going to happen albeit the new school accept them. [ I was there at the interview, my mind was made up, My appearance at the meeting was window dressing on my part - think about the extra fuel the traffic,the early waking up, no, my mind was made up - no way] - I went anyway and sat down and the headmaster quizzed me on her sport which is good,her academics were below average and he drilled me on all relative topics, in closing he asked me if Her brother in the same grade wanted the school as well I said yyyes I had no idea how i was going to fund this but they were accepted. [Got My Mind Unmade]

I have recently found out the both my son and daughter in the same grade [8] were  both selected for the 1st team in the old school but were not allowed to play in those teams, that is rugby and hockey due to what the teachers call intimidation -

The older girls and boys [higher graders] would not take kindly to being pushed out of the team ahead of my 2 youngsters even if it was on merit -

Now all things, are opening up to them and the 2 are doing great, both have been accepted on leadership camps and they are so much happier - 14 year old girls are extreeeemly forceful.


Regarding the finances, I have no idea, but like Rebecca told me "that's not my Problem that's yours" as we speak they are leaving on a leadership camp with new sleeping bags,school uniforms paid for and books so in this instance "God you amaZe me " How .... Duh

Being forceful in relation to attaining the Kingdom, is NOT OUR PROBLEM

you will be invited to an interview ... and will say "what was all the fuss"

BTW Michael Rebecca's brother was sent home for 3 days after being in the school 1 day , for fighting - [Highley embarresing for me, given the interview with the headmaster and his strict stipulations]

explanation - he was protecting someone he did not even know, from a bunch of bullies, that too turned out for his good and Gods glory as leadership qualities seem to have been recognised ...

The Violence in your quoted scripture appears to have nothing to do with the physical realm

Ian

Kat:

Hi Eugene,

Luke 16:16  The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Mat 11:12  And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.

Mat 11:12 Now, from the days of John the baptist hitherto, the kingdom of the heavens is being violently forced and the violent are snatching it." (CLV)

The thing that occurs to me is if you look at the church and think how they are acting towards salvation, they think it is theirs to claim or "snatch" as the concordant said it. They have this 'free will' you know and therefore salvation is theirs for the taking. How wrong they are.

The church has a long history of violence and believe that by whatever means is necessary they have to 'save' people from hell. They do "press into it," but do they obtain it?

Mat 15:7-9  Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying, "This people draws near to Me with their mouth, and honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. But in vain they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

John 6:44  No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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