going to heaven/hell when one dies

[Gina]

I am an unfinished piece of clay, I do not even come close in understanding the Potter's reasons and wisdom as to why I am still here.
Yet in my heart I am disturbed as to why the teaching of going to heaven or hell when you die is so accepted by regular people who own and read their Bible's. The going to the "hell" they hear on TV and read in their Bible translation can easily be understood by the verses Kat gave.
That is disturbing as it is, to accept, want, and desire a human being to suffer like that, while they feel safe in their heaven thoughts and are grateful it is not them. The teaching does not and cannot reveal the Love of God.
So I was just wondering on what Bible grounds do they verify their heaven journey from the Bible. Is the teaching just formed from an opposite of damnation teaching and needs no sound doctrine?

Dear Micah:

Here is your answer:

2 Thes. 2:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all POWER and SIGNS and LYING wonders,

10 And with all deception of unrighteousness in them that perish; BECAUSE THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE THE TRUTH, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them a strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be condemned who believed not the truth, but had PLEASURE in unrighteousness.


Again: 
And for this cause God shall send them a strong delusion, that they should [ and I don't mean maybe] believe a lie:  2 Thes. 2:11

But WHO WILL BELIEVE OUR REPORT?

[Kat]

Actually Gina Ray himself always used what the church taught to refute what they believed. We are not promoting what they teach, just trying to answer a reasonable question that micah7:9 had and maybe others as well. The church uses their Bibles well to promote their beliefs and it is helpful to us sometimes to look at the verses they use, so to understand the deception better.

Here are a few verses that the church use to give there members hope for a heavenly home. All from the KJV.

Luke 23:43  And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Php 3:20-21  For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

2Co 5:8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

John 11:25  Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

1Co 15:51-55  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Luke 16:22  And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom:

Mat 17:2-3  And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Well that is some that they use and just think if these verses are presented in isolation (yes they take things out of context, imagine that) and a sermon built around them to prove it the way they see it. We are the very few blessed with having been shown the truth. They rest are deceived, the translations are misleading to a degree and it is intended to be that way.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Gina]

I believe you spoke just what Christian preachers and teachers do, and that is they are judging, using human logic, common sense, and human emotions to comfort rather than speak the truth.

And you answered your question there too.  They don't need SOUND doctrine when they have people who will listen to them but not hear what they're saying because (just like we did when we were duped into believing the doctrine before God open our eyes to the truth), they judge their teachers by their outward appearance.  They use no common sense, logic, or sound reasoning.  Instead they do what we did when we were in their shoes:  they go off their human emotions (remember when we used to hate our enemies?) and find comfort in the "fact"  (or more accurately -- "hope") that their enemies would be in a lot of agonizing pain.  But like Eugene has quoted Ray elsewhere on another thread, they don't think at ALL of what atrocity they're ultimately taking a delight in.  Of course there doesn't need to be "sound doctrine" supporting that deceit.  By its very UNsound nature there canNOT be "sound" doctrine supporting it.  How could there be?  Sound doctrine wasn't designed to support things that are NOT sound.  It'd be like having Jesus Christ (who is sound) dying to make sure the "hell" doctrine was "safe and sound" so that it, as a lie, would never be revealed for what it truly is.  It would be like Jesus Christ suffering to make sure that everyone remained in mental anguish for all eternity.  Your question just makes no sense.  I'm sorry.  I hope that I was of some assistance to you.

[Dave in Tenn]

I can see and understand how they teach about a "hell" of everlasting torment, but where are the verses that say with all "their folksy and colorful descriptions" the proof that those who are "saved" go to heaven when they die?
I know that Luke 16 is their mainstay, but where are others?

That was Micah's question.  The word "scripture" is not in there.  Gina, you were right the first time.  SCRIPTURE does not teach these things.  I agree, and apparently Micah does too.  But they do use 'verses'.  And that is what Micah is asking, regardless of what you thought he/she was asking above.  It's not splitting hairs, it's trying to answer the question that was actually asked.

God forbid we should use the forum to discuss the very things Ray DID teach.   

[Marky Mark]

HOW did such a teaching become such a powerful and accepted understanding,

they must use verses and scripture from the Bible

Hello micah7:9.

You wont find what your looking for because it does not exist.It is only in the minds of those who God is deceiving through an experience of evil that these evil thoughts are birthed. Any evil way of thinking, in any context, is how humanity is brought unto the destruction of the flesh,for the purpose of good,which is,a Spiritual conversion of the heart.

The thought of a eternal hell fire bath of literal fire consuming ones flesh or the polar opposite of a place somewhere out there in the universe on some rock in outer space consisting of an eternal fleshy pleasure palace of self indulgence,are both,one and the same thing...idols of the heart.

God will give you what your carnal heart desires in such a way that what the world thinks is true... really... is, nothing more than, a lying spirit, sent from God. The Scriptures are an enigma to those whom the Lord is hiding His truths from,until,the set time that He causes a change of heart and mind. When we are in babylon...we are in a state of spiritual confusion.Not until He removes our confusion will we be able to see His Truths concerning the Word.

A few verse to add to what Gina posted.

Zech 10:2 For the idols have spoken vanity, and the diviners have seen a lie, and have told false dreams; they comfort in vain: therefore they went their way as a flock, they were troubled, because there was no shepherd.

Eze 14:4 ...Thus saith the Lord GOD; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the LORD will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;

Eze 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

2Sa 22:26  With the merciful thou wilt shew thyself merciful, and with the upright man thou wilt shew thyself upright.
2Sa 22:27  With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself unsavoury.


Peace...Mark

[dave]

Thank you all.

Well I just have this hope ....2Ti 2:15  be diligent to present thyself approved to God--a workman irreproachable, rightly dividing the word of the truth;
That the Lord will find a use for me to set free the true joy of the Lord in all his people and I reason that with the Lord's help foremost, and from others, such as on this forum, that the only in roads are to be able to approach those friends in the buildings and assemblies with words of love that will express their error in thinking. I believe the word repent means just that to have a changed mind.
I know that when the Lord began opening my eyes years ago and I was pulled out of all denominations trying many, that I was a pretty lonely guy with the truths He revealed and no one to share with but the Lord and with joy, until back in 2007 when the Lord led me or helped me find BT's.
I go to an assembly now, all good people who love Jesus, I sit and wonder and just hope with prayer that the Lord would make a way for me to be used as His hearts desire. So what ever verses that console them about heaven I would just like to study. Thanks again to all of you.

[Gina]

Micah,

I think that is an excellent prayer.

Thank you for your question.

Marky-Mark, may God bless you abundantly.

[G. Driggs]

Just wondering(and it may be elementary) but when and how did the teaching get started, that when we die, they either go to heaven or hell?
I mean, is there some verse of scripture that says anything close or like that?

No not to us (which i believe you understand), but to those that are still being deceived yes of course. Here are a few verses I've found that they will often use to prove that they "go to Heaven".

Joh 14:2  In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Luk 6:23  Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

1Co 2:9  But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

Php 3:20  For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Php 3:21  Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

[dave]

Thanks still!

[santgem]

There are two correct answers when it comes to the meaning of backing of Scriptures..

in one point of view..... "there is a backing of Scriptures". Everybody knows that when Scriptures itself mentions hell, then it is up to the advantage of any sects to emphasise or explain that there is a hell based on their interpretation. But the question is, is the interpretation correct? no matter whether  it is correct or not the point is there is a backing! There is a backing because they will insist up to death that it is the true interpretation, like there is hell.


On another view......."There is no backing of Scriptures". Again, when the Scriptures itself mentions hell, then it is up to the advantage of any sects to emphasize or to explain that there is a hell based on their interpretation. But the question is, Is the interpretation correct? NO, no! it is not correct, it is absolutely not correct, the interpretation is wrong, that is why there is no backing of the Scriptures!

No matter your point is, whether there is no backing or there is backing of Scriptures, what matters is that we know the truth because the Spirit is in us. God gave us partial installment to discern!

[Gina]

Santgem,

Micah asked over and over specifically for scriptural backing:

I mean, is there some verse of scripture that says anything close or like that?

How can something like that be made a teaching without verse and scripture?

, but they must use verses and scripture from the Bible to sway them into believing such comforting.

And at one point he even said, "there can't be scriptural backing,"

they have no solid verse or scripture to explain why they believe.

And then Micah goes on to ask again and again for scriptural backing:

I can see and understand how they teach about a "hell" of everlasting torment, but where are the verses that say with all "their folksy and colorful descriptions" the proof that those who are "saved" go to heaven when they die?  I know that Luke 16 is their mainstay, but where are others?

So I was just wondering on what Bible grounds do they verify their heaven journey from the Bible. Is the teaching just formed from an opposite of damnation teaching and needs no sound doctrine?

There are most certainly not two correct answers diametrically opposed.  There is only one correct answer:  there is no scriptural backing for the doctrine of hell (or of their "heaven"). 

I see what you're saying -- it just doesn't make any sense.  Just wanted to clear that up. 

[newgene87]

Okay NOW I understand. I do. But all in all - it can be "scriptural" backing to that thought hell if you don't know how to INTERPRET the scriptures. Truly, words like "hades", "Gehenna fire", "the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.", "Sheol" are obscure. As ray said, there are theologians are who are fluent in Greek and Hebrew who have NO clue what the gospel. And they use many scriptures to back up the claims - even justifying "Aoinian/eternal" "Gehenna". Truly, as Peter said

2 Peter 3:16
as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable [people] twist to their own destruction, as [they do] also the rest of the SCRIPTURES.

So Scriptures, not just bible verses, can be twisted by all the major theologians and teachers of today's christianity. But once taught the true meaning of words, getting rid of heresies of Religions of egypt and Greek, coming out of the worlds wisdom and thinking of "Free Will" and good vs evil - then we can rightly divide the Word of scripture

Eugene

[Dave in Tenn]

I think the question was answered.  The rest is just...not sure what it is, but it's 'preaching to the choir', if nothing else.  Let's move on.