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the truth

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JOHN PROPHECY !
« on: September 02, 2012, 08:10:45 PM »

Hello,How can John prophesy again to many peoples,and nations and tongues and kings if he is dead?Till THE millium reighn? As the context of the Scripture seems to show this two witnesses are given power before the millim reighn.

Rev 10:10  And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.
Rev 10:11  And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

:
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: JOHN PROPHECY !
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2012, 08:34:15 PM »

He prophecies every time someone reads his book.  The Apostles are still teaching, too.  The 'heroes' and prophets of the OT are still at it.  The writers of the Gospels are still at it.

Rom 15:4  For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

2Ti 3:16, 17  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

dave

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Re: JOHN PROPHECY !
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2012, 08:35:37 PM »

Ya gotta just love this Book!
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newgene87

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Re: JOHN PROPHECY !
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2012, 10:25:32 PM »

I second Dave on this. He hits it well. Just to add on

Rev 10:11  ...Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

1 Corinthians 14:3
But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men [to] edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

"...for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." (Rev 19:10)

Truly, John is prophesying day by day we open up the scripture and proclaim the Truth of Jesus. The testimony of Jesus rings throughout the earth among peoples, nations, and languages and kings. Again and again. So I second that thought Dave.

Eugene
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John from Kentucky

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Re: JOHN PROPHECY !
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2012, 10:36:25 PM »

The Book of Revelation is the most difficult of all scriptures to understand.  It is chock full of symbolism.  To read any of it literally is a dead end.  The Many have made the error of doing so over the centuries.

It is Jesus alone Who can reveal the understanding of this Book, which He does through His two witnesses, as guided by His Spirit working within those who He has chosen to understand.

As Ray mentioned somewhere, all of the symbols in Revelation are explained elsewhere in the Scriptures.

Line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little.
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dave

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Re: JOHN PROPHECY !
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2012, 11:19:00 PM »

Yes Dave, and that book is a positive book.
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longhorn

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Re: JOHN PROPHECY !
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2012, 11:26:33 PM »

John represents the " Elect" in scripture ( Rev 1 1-2). 
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newgene87

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Re: JOHN PROPHECY !
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2012, 12:41:45 AM »

John represents the " Elect" in scripture ( Rev 1 1-2).

Yes, you definitely gotta love this book! What a grand book of symbols. Thanks Longhorn
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cris.santiago

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Re: JOHN PROPHECY !
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2012, 01:38:51 AM »

That's a great question, very thought provoking.

The answer is quite simple; John will again prophesy, but truth is He still is.  But first lets look at what it means to prophesy:

But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. - 1 Corinthians 14:3

So to prophecy is to do one, two, or all of these things: To edify, To exhort, or to comfort.

Now that we have set the foundation, let us look at this important verses:

The sum of thy word is truth; And every one of thy righteous ordinances endureth for ever. - Psalms 119:160

1Co 10:11  Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.


So to understand that statement in Revelation, we must understand that the SUM, not just a verse or two, of God's word is the truth.  And that all things written in the bible are written for OUR admonition upon whom the ends of the world are come(thats US!)

The book of Revelation is what WE must go through.  John will continue to prophecy simply because ALL of God's elect in EVERY Generation must live through the words spoken of in this book(THE BIBLE). 








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the truth

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Re: JOHN PROPHECY !
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2012, 10:25:10 AM »

Hello....Thanks for everyone that has shared their thoughts so far.That is what makes this forum truly a blessed place.Because their are people with the mind of Christ and His Spirit.I want to share my thoughts as each person has shared.

Dave,John...
Again thanks as always with your response!!The problem for Me anyway is.Are we saying that this, what seems to be a prophecy of a future event is not going to take place?Will there be NO two witnesses?Are we to say that the coming of Christ is just Spiritual and not literal?I know John you shared.....quote.....It is chock full of symbolism.  To read any of it literally is a dead end....end quote.Ray never said that TO READ ANY of it to be literial is a dead end .However I do respect your answers given in what you see as truth to you and that's fine.I to have seen it that way and may still if I can settle it with the Scripture.Having said that theses are some hang ups I have with this Spiritual only approach.

1.As I have already shared if this is NOT just Spiritual then John seems to be one of the two witnesses?

2.I understand John to be dead.And I understand what we believe to be the state of all who have died up till now.Although God does have a order!So that's what makes this even more complicated to me.Ex-specially when i consider:

Mat 16:28  Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Joh 21:21  Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
Joh 21:22  Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

3.AS IN THE TRANSFIGURATION:We have Elijah.Moses,Peter,James ,John.
we have 3 confirmed dead.....Peter,James,Moses.

I have not been able to find anything to confirm John death.I have seen writings that he was boiled as many as 3 times in water but then went to cities again?Maybe someone can help me with that.

And as far as Elijah I am aware what Ray teaches on in Hebrews that these "ALL Died in the faith"But that could still mean Elijah will still die in the faith as a returning witness?If it is a literal event.

4. which leads me to another thought:That would leave Elijah,John as the two witnesses
Elijah,is a Ephraimite...Gen 48-19-20. and John is a Jude an...which would represent the two olive Trees?

Rev 11:3  And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4  These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth
.

5.And even though it not related here .I believe that the reason John didn't go into the tomb before Peter was because he was a Jude an and would have been defiled had he went in with a dead body.And after he found out it was no dead body he went in.


Chris.....thanks for your response.............The book of Revelation is what WE must go through.Yes I see it as a fifth Gospel of the returning reining Messiah.

Longhorn...I guess i would see Joh represents Judea and we represent Elijah the Ephramite since we are Gentiles.Gen 48-19-20

Micah.Eugene...It is a glorious book!

Thanks again for everyone thoughts would appreciate more.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 11:35:51 AM by the truth »
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newgene87

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Re: JOHN PROPHECY !
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2012, 01:03:11 PM »

Truly, the "coming of Christ" well be literal at some future point. The "the two witnesses", and MUCH of the prophecy of Revelations is going on now. "which was, which is, which is to come". 

Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

This is in the first chapter of the book. Is that literal? No doubt! But is that before the two witnesses and all the words of Revelations? No it's not.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first...

It is going to happen; but Revelations is a SPIRITUAL BOOK. We must never forget

"...The words that I speak to you are spirit, and [they] are life." (John 6:63)

Matthew 13:34-35
All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them...“I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world"

So whether prophecy or parables; they are one and they are spirit. Your thought of Elijah and John, well we are entitled to opinions and that's fine. But truly, they are all dead. Scripture confirms them dead

Hebrews 11:13, 38,39
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises...{and let's say Elijah, was/is still alive or didn't die}... they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise. {didn't receive the promise, died in faith}

As far as Mat 16:28; are you taking Christ words Literally and suggesting they are not yet dead? John never died on Patmos? Thats borderline pagan thinking 8). I like it ;), but still he is confirmed dead, because he was flesh, born man

1 Corinthians 15:21-22
For since by man [came] death, by Man also [came] the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die...

As far as the transfiguration, Jesus told them..."...Tell the VISION to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead." (Mat 17:9)

And went on to speak on Elijah...."Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. 12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. 13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist."

It was a vision, a transFIGURE of a higher truth which was, which is, which is to be fulfilled in Christ. So that leaves us John. We don't have a confirmed death of Mary Magdelene, or do we? Or Jesus father Joseph? It's speculated, but not confirmed. Or I could be wrong. The point is, all Man die, Jesus words are spiritual. I usually still have the concept of the Two Witnesses in my head from the "Left Behind" movies. That's kind of what this sounds like - two literal men prophesying dressed in sackcloth. They are spiritual. what tribes they are from - - are spiritual. "know no man after the flesh any longer" (2Cor 5:16). Whether John was from Judah doesn't matter. Even when Revelations mentions the tribes; THEY ARE SPIRITUAL. Spiritual Words, revealing spiritual truths for the Elect of God throughout the ages. Great thoughts still. We all grow from them

Eugene
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John from Kentucky

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Re: JOHN PROPHECY !
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2012, 07:48:11 PM »

Hello....Thanks for everyone that has shared their thoughts so far.That is what makes this forum truly a blessed place.Because their are people with the mind of Christ and His Spirit.I want to share my thoughts as each person has shared.

Dave,John...
Again thanks as always with your response!!The problem for Me anyway is.Are we saying that this, what seems to be a prophecy of a future event is not going to take place?Will there be NO two witnesses?Are we to say that the coming of Christ is just Spiritual and not literal?I know John you shared.....quote.....It is chock full of symbolism.  To read any of it literally is a dead end....end quote.Ray never said that TO READ ANY of it to be literial is a dead end .However I do respect your answers given in what you see as truth to you and that's fine.I to have seen it that way and may still if I can settle it with the Scripture.Having said that theses are some hang ups I have with this Spiritual only approach.

1.As I have already shared if this is NOT just Spiritual then John seems to be one of the two witnesses?

2.I understand John to be dead.And I understand what we believe to be the state of all who have died up till now.Although God does have a order!So that's what makes this even more complicated to me.Ex-specially when i consider:

Mat 16:28  Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Joh 21:21  Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
Joh 21:22  Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

3.AS IN THE TRANSFIGURATION:We have Elijah.Moses,Peter,James ,John.
we have 3 confirmed dead.....Peter,James,Moses.

I have not been able to find anything to confirm John death.I have seen writings that he was boiled as many as 3 times in water but then went to cities again?Maybe someone can help me with that.

And as far as Elijah I am aware what Ray teaches on in Hebrews that these "ALL Died in the faith"But that could still mean Elijah will still die in the faith as a returning witness?If it is a literal event.

4. which leads me to another thought:That would leave Elijah,John as the two witnesses
Elijah,is a Ephraimite...Gen 48-19-20. and John is a Jude an...which would represent the two olive Trees?

Rev 11:3  And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4  These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth
.

5.And even though it not related here .I believe that the reason John didn't go into the tomb before Peter was because he was a Jude an and would have been defiled had he went in with a dead body.And after he found out it was no dead body he went in.


Chris.....thanks for your response.............The book of Revelation is what WE must go through.Yes I see it as a fifth Gospel of the returning reining Messiah.

Longhorn...I guess i would see Joh represents Judea and we represent Elijah the Ephramite since we are Gentiles.Gen 48-19-20

Micah.Eugene...It is a glorious book!

Thanks again for everyone thoughts would appreciate more.

Hello Jerry,

Here is what Ray has written regarding two witnesses.

Jesus tells us in parable of two great witnesses:

    "Then said He unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which brings forth out of his treasure, NEW AND OLD" (Matt. 13:52).

What "new and old" treasures do "scribes" preserve for us regarding the "kingdom of heaven?" Why the NEW Covenant Scriptures and the OLD Covenant Scriptures, of course. And both the Old (Deut. 17:6 & 19:15), and the New (II Cor. 13:1 & Matt. 18:16) command that we must have two witnesses to establish every Word of God.


After studying the scriptures, I too have come to the conclusion that the two witnesses are the New Covenant Scriptures and the Old Covenant Scriptures.  That knowledge has helped my understanding of the Book of Revelation.

You also quote Matt 16:28 where Jesus says some standing there would not taste death until they saw the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom.

Jesus spoke the truth because six days later, Peter, James, and John saw Jesus in His Glory with His face as the Sun and His clothing white like as the light.  Matt 17:1-2.

Also, I didn't understand your last statement where you said John didn't go into Jesus' tomb because he feared he might be defiled because John was a Jew.  Peter was a Jew too and that didn't stop him from entering the tomb.  My guess is John waited out of respect for Peter being the chief apostle.

You also stated there is no proof of John's death.  The proof is all men die.  There is no proof at all, whether biblical or scientific, where a man has not died.  There is no proof of the death of either Peter or Paul.  We think that both of them were killed in Rome under the rule of the Emperor Nero in the 60's A.D.  However, there does not exist a contemporary written record of either the death of Peter or Paul.

I don't know if any of the above is helpful.  But I have to go back to work.  I am one of the dummies who think Labor Day means you have to work.   ;D  Take care Jerry,

John
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the truth

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Re: JOHN PROPHECY !
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2012, 08:08:37 PM »

Hello Eugene
Thanks for your help with this!I see what your thoughts are and there good ones. Still working on making in clear with MY Spirit.Not that I don't believe any more what I do believe to be truth its just I use to think I was in truth before only to be Wrong! :'(Some thoughts on your thoughts.


1.You shared:
This is in the first chapter of the book. Is that literal? No doubt! But is that before the two witnesses and all the words of Revelations? No it's not.

Not sure if I understand your point correctly.If your saying this in-regards to this event didn't happen until after the Revelations of the book...... is proof the two witnesses is Spiritual? Because if you are I think I have a reason why that could be .

Luk 24:44  And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

As I shared I believe the Revelations is a fifth Gospel  of the Coming Reigning Messiah.So yes that would be many events of Is,Was ,and IS to come.

2.You shared:Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen

Eugene who are these people?......they also who pierced him?
Are you saying these are the people of Judea who put him to death who are supposed to be dead until the Great White throne Judgement will see him as well?Well of course if its all Sp ritual I guess there is No great White Throne Judgement?

Or is this referring to the people  who are in the land of Judea alive at his coming?Since he is coming back there?

3.You shared:........but Revelations is a SPIRITUAL BOOK. We must never forget

When people say that I don't understand why they say that.Kind of like tradition of men when they say I believe Christ died rose the third day and is seated at the right hand of the Father.They say it but they dint really believe it.You shared that you do believe that Christ is literally coming back.However ,that's the only thing in the bible that's literal.Or is it because like the Church on ever corner if it doesn't fit are teaching its Sp ritual Not literal?

So as I asked John....where did Ray ever say the book of Revelation is totally Spiritual?I always thought we are to stay literal until it contradicts Scripture.

4.You shared:Hebrews 11:13, 38,39
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises...{and let's say Elijah, was/is still alive or didn't die}... they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise. {didn't receive the promise, died in faith.

Eugene when will a person receive the promise?In are understanding at the return of Christ unless you are elect and alive at his coming.So,if because with God all things are possible John could be still alive as mortal not Immortal.And they Could be in a realm that's NOT in the third heaven the throne of God where one has to be immortal?

5.You shared:As far as Mat 16:28; are you taking Christ words Literally and suggesting they are not yet dead? John never died on Patmos? That's borderline pagan thinking . I like it , but still he is confirmed dead, because he was flesh, born man.

I have to test everything Eugene that's the rules!I did share two witnesses to the fact.....matt-16-28....Jn-21-21-22.

put yourself in my shoes ..if i show you two witnesses that this person COULD BE ALIVE with Scripture and all you can say is he is still confirmed dead....because he was flesh,born man.and can only say that from a mans perspective and NOT Scripture that's no contest again as per my question Is there any proof of His death?

Also is verse MATT- 16-28 the only verse in that context that is not literal?So in other words all the rest of the events there are NOT LITERAL?

the point of 1-Cor 15-21-22 seems to be moved IF John does return as one of the witnesses.And is still Mortal.

AS per the vision ...I have no problem with that!....Imagine that...lol

So having said all that..... this is something I am looking at and just have questions on that's all.Not trying to prove anyone wrong just have questions.And I realize that it is aggravating to some to question such things but oh well.....its worth it.

Thanks again Eugene I am thankful for your responses.
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newgene87

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Re: JOHN PROPHECY !
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2012, 08:46:12 PM »

It is worth it, No doubt. Asking questions is good for the mind. It allows us to prepare ourselves or an answer. I guess the next is believing the answer you receive. Keep asking, keep seeking, keep knocking. Whatever builds you, yearn for it brother.
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: JOHN PROPHECY !
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2012, 09:22:47 PM »

It's true that what is to come also now is.  It's also true that what now is, is what is to come.  "Spiritual" does not mean "imaginary" or even "symbolic".  The "now" judgement is real and changes people.  Future judgement will also be real and will change people.

What things will 'physically' or 'literally' be like after resurrection remains to be seen.  Scripture attests to this.  My mental image (or imagination) continues to change.  It will likely continue to continue to change.  But it is as worthless as anybody else's to accurately describe what will actually be happening.  In order for me to 'describe' what is in my mind, I would have to be a master writer or film-maker.  I am niether.  I'm absolutely certain that the writer and producers of the Left Behind series, whatever their talents might be, have not the slightest clue what they are writing or putting to film.  What I am sure of is that the the Revelation of Jesus Christ (and in all prophetic writing of scripture) are given in signs and symbols.  These signs and symbols in the Revelation of Jesus point to SPIRITUAL realities.  Not PHYSICAL imagination.  Not ""Spiritual"" imagination.  SPIRIT is real.  The Old and the New Covenants are real, AND they are Spiritual. 

The Lake of Fire is not a Lake, nor is it fire.  It is also not a symbolic description of something like a physical lake with something like physical fire.  It's a symbol of a SPIRITUAL reality.  That it takes place (along with all the other symbols of the Revelation) "yet to come" is not in question.  At least not here at B-T (the materials...not necessarily the forum)  HOW it takes place, is.  At least it is to me.

I mention the Lake of Fire as an example (thoroughly covered by Ray) of the other symbols, which may not have been so thoroughly covered.  I'm of the opinion (right or wrong) that it isn't even necessary to 'understand' all the symbols.  These things have happened, are happening, and will happen to the great (in understanding) and the small (in understanding).  Many of them which I UNDERSTAND now, happened to me LONG BEFORE I understood them by the Grace of Sovereign God.

It is the Revelation OF Jesus Christ, not simply a prophecy of things to come.  At least it is recognized as such by the materials on B-T.  I shouldn't have to post the entire LOF series in a forum post.



 

 
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 09:25:13 PM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

dave

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Re: JOHN PROPHECY !
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2012, 09:46:39 PM »

It's true that what is to come also now is.  It's also true that what now is, is what is to come.  "Spiritual" does not mean "imaginary" or even "symbolic".  The "now" judgement is real and changes people.  Future judgement will also be real and will change people.

What things will 'physically' or 'literally' be like after resurrection remains to be seen.  Scripture attests to this.  My mental image (or imagination) continues to change.  It will likely continue to continue to change.  But it is as worthless as anybody else's to accurately describe what will actually be happening.  In order for me to 'describe' what is in my mind, I would have to be a master writer or film-maker.  I am niether.  I'm absolutely certain that the writer and producers of the Left Behind series, whatever their talents might be, have not the slightest clue what they are writing or putting to film.  What I am sure of is that the the Revelation of Jesus Christ (and in all prophetic writing of scripture) are given in signs and symbols.  These signs and symbols in the Revelation of Jesus point to SPIRITUAL realities.  Not PHYSICAL imagination.  Not ""Spiritual"" imagination.  SPIRIT is real.  The Old and the New Covenants are real, AND they are Spiritual. 

The Lake of Fire is not a Lake, nor is it fire.  It is also not a symbolic description of something like a physical lake with something like physical fire.  It's a symbol of a SPIRITUAL reality.  That it takes place (along with all the other symbols of the Revelation) "yet to come" is not in question.  At least not here at B-T (the materials...not necessarily the forum)  HOW it takes place, is.  At least it is to me.

I mention the Lake of Fire as an example (thoroughly covered by Ray) of the other symbols, which may not have been so thoroughly covered.  I'm of the opinion (right or wrong) that it isn't even necessary to 'understand' all the symbols.  These things have happened, are happening, and will happen to the great (in understanding) and the small (in understanding).  Many of them which I UNDERSTAND now, happened to me LONG BEFORE I understood them by the Grace of Sovereign God.

It is the Revelation OF Jesus Christ, not simply a prophecy of things to come.  At least it is recognized as such by the materials on B-T.  I shouldn't have to post the entire LOF series in a forum post.



 

 

Very well said.
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the truth

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Re: JOHN PROPHECY !
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2012, 10:05:39 PM »

Hello,Thanks Dave and Eugene!I realize this as A issue me and the Lord has to settle.I want to think you for your kind replies.As I will continue to search these out for sure.I have many other thoughts and Scripture to account for and just now I seen were this passage of the two witnesses is in the greek....... is in future tense  not present which would totally do away with it being Spritiual........I accept and agree with your statement Eugene with the understanding it works both ways....lol..Hehe.It is what drives me for sure cause like everyone who the Lord is calling and choosen .....He says Why do you call me Lord,Lord and do not what I say.Thats enough for me to ask lots of questions!However I will ask no more here.

John your staement :Also, I didn't understand your last statement where you said John didn't go into Jesus' tomb because he feared he might be defiled because John was a Jew.  Peter was a Jew too and that didn't stop him from entering the tomb.  My guess is John waited out of respect for Peter being the chief apostle.

Your right I was thinking John levite .....Judea......... and Peter... benjamite... but both were from south Judea same rules apply?
Also,I was thinking Order I guess.I know there had to be a reason John did not go in first maybe it was a order that Peter would die first I dont know and dont want to go there here.hehe.Thanks John for your thoughts hope your work day was blessed!
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