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[dave]

Need a little help here on the teaching of Jesus being a substitute, vicarious, instead of. Any thoughts would be helpful. Thanks

Okay I do not believe that Jesus was a substitute, vicarious, He did not die instead of me, he died for me, as a brother. There is a teaching that Jesus was "my substitute."  Hope that is clearer.

[gregorydc]

My thoughts don't mean a whole lot to many so take it for what it is worth. He substituted himself as a sacrifice for our sins. He is, was, and will be the only way to be forgiven for our sins. Without his perfect sacrifice there would be no hope for mankind. If you want More you need to be more specific with your question. I am hoping this helps. Please tell me if it does or doesn't.
Greg

[Joel]

The word Propitiation comes to mind.
Romans 3:23-25, and 1 John 2:1-2  offer good insight.

Joel

[dave]

The word Propitiation comes to mind.
Romans 3:23-25, and 1 John 2:1-2  offer good insight.

Joel

Yes, thanks I overlooked that one

[Deborah-Leigh]

Jesus said:

Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now;G3568 but thou shalt follow me afterwards.G5305

G3568
νῦν
nun
noon
A primary particle of present time; “now” (as adverb of date, a transition or emphasis); also as noun or adjective present or immediate: - henceforth, + hereafter, of late, soon, present, this (time). See also G3569, G3570.

G5305
ὕστερον
husteron
hoos'-ter-on
Neuter of G5306 as adverb; more lately, that is, eventually: - afterward, (at the) last (of all).

Denying our selves and taking up our cross to follow Jesus is the way all shall be saved....eventually ~ 

[Gina]

Indeed.

The way I understand it is, He didn't simply die for us on our behalf and in our place so that we wouldn't have to die, but Jesus came to die to show us how to deny ourselves and die to self and live to God.

Romans 5:6-10

For while we were yet weak, in due season Christ died for the ungodly.

For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: for peradventure for the good man some one would even dare to die.

But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Much more then, being now justified by his blood,  shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him.

For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

Is that His life now, in His resurrected state?  Or His life that He lived while on earth?  That's the only question I have (I don't mean to hijack your thread Micah!)

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Gina

Maybe this would answer your question : ....shall we be saved by his life. Is that His life now, in His resurrected state?  Or His life that He lived while on earth?

Rev 1:18  .... He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

 

[Kat]

Found this email.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=2517.0 ---------------------

  The Scriptures tell us that Jesus died FOR US; FOR ALL; FOR OUR SINS.  Nowhere does it state or suggest that He died as a "substitute," in our "place and stead," or any such terminology.  Rom. 5:7 does not suggest either that one is dying as a "substitude" for another, but rather "for their sake," or "for them."  Notice that Jesus died "FOR OUR SINS." I do not think that anyone would suggest that Jesus died "in place of our sins?"  He died FOR US.  And therefore we need to be careful even in stating that "Christ's death does not save us from ANY death..."  Technically, it is true that we are not saved BY His death, but rather BY His life, nonetheless, unless there had been a death preceeding the life, we would be finished.  His death and resurrection WILL ASSUREDLY SAVE US FROM DEATH, and it will save all of humanity from death, as death itself is to be totally absolished .

    God be with you,
    Ray

[dave]

Thanks. It's amazing how Jesus, not being our substitute, is totally absurd to so many people. People get angry, the teaching seems to mean to them that if he was not our substitute, that if he did not die instead of us, we don't get to heaven. He did it all, and what's left for us, is to just accept Jesus and get water baptized(unless that happened when you were a baby) your heaven bound when you die. Thanks again

[Extol]

From the Nashville 2007 Conference (audio 7B):

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html

John 3:16  "For God so(thus) loved the world,”

Thus or in the manner, a lot of people think it’s saying He loved us so much, but that is not what this is saying. What this is saying is God loved us, in this way. This is the manner and way in which He loved us. In this way He loved the world.

“…that He gave His only begotten Son,”

He died, they killed Him on the cross, He died.

“…that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.”

Of course the Bible is written so man doesn’t understand it. That’s why some of these things are put in there, “that who-so-ever believes.” God knows and now we know, everybody is going to believe. So the ‘who-so-ever’ is going to be everybody.

But He gave His Son, now here’s the point I want to make and that is this, why did Christ have to die? Why? Why did the Father sacrifice His Son? Why did He have to do that? HE DIDN’T HAVE TO DO THAT! He didn’t have to do anything, HE’S GOD! Why DID He? Because whether you recognize it now or later in life or those in the resurrection to judgment or for the rest of eternity, we are going to know it for sure. That God died for us for no other reason than to show us that HE LOVES US! He did not have to die. He said, I will do it to show them.  How can I show them that what I am putting them through has real value? What can I do? I can promise them the world, I can give them mansions and youth and joyful life. I have all that to give, but they will say, you are only giving out of your abundance, of what you have. What can I really do, that you will know that I really love you? God said, I will DIE!
 
But God can’t die, He’s eternal, He has immortality, deathlessness. If you have immortality you can’t die. So He made a Son. He made Him great. To show us how great He was, He said, let Me show you what I can do when I make a Son. Create the universe first, now become a man, and now die.
Then they will know We love them.
Then they will know.

[dave]

From the Nashville 2007 Conference (audio 7B):

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html

John 3:16  "For God so(thus) loved the world,”

Thus or in the manner, a lot of people think it’s saying He loved us so much, but that is not what this is saying. What this is saying is God loved us, in this way. This is the manner and way in which He loved us. In this way He loved the world.

“…that He gave His only begotten Son,”

He died, they killed Him on the cross, He died.

“…that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.”

Of course the Bible is written so man doesn’t understand it. That’s why some of these things are put in there, “that who-so-ever believes.” God knows and now we know, everybody is going to believe. So the ‘who-so-ever’ is going to be everybody.

But He gave His Son, now here’s the point I want to make and that is this, why did Christ have to die? Why? Why did the Father sacrifice His Son? Why did He have to do that? HE DIDN’T HAVE TO DO THAT! He didn’t have to do anything, HE’S GOD! Why DID He? Because whether you recognize it now or later in life or those in the resurrection to judgment or for the rest of eternity, we are going to know it for sure. That God died for us for no other reason than to show us that HE LOVES US! He did not have to die. He said, I will do it to show them.  How can I show them that what I am putting them through has real value? What can I do? I can promise them the world, I can give them mansions and youth and joyful life. I have all that to give, but they will say, you are only giving out of your abundance, of what you have. What can I really do, that you will know that I really love you? God said, I will DIE!
 
But God can’t die, He’s eternal, He has immortality, deathlessness. If you have immortality you can’t die. So He made a Son. He made Him great. To show us how great He was, He said, let Me show you what I can do when I make a Son. Create the universe first, now become a man, and now die.
Then they will know We love them.
Then they will know.

Thank you!

[Patric]

Thanks. It's amazing how Jesus, not being our substitute, is totally absurd to so many people. People get angry, the teaching seems to mean to them that if he was not our substitute, that if he did not die instead of us, we don't get to heaven. He did it all, and what's left for us, is to just accept Jesus and get water baptized(unless that happened when you were a baby) your heaven bound when you die. Thanks again

  This has provoked a lot of thought in me..... As in I once remember reading where Ray wrote.....there are many ways to get saved and things one must do to be saved (an on going process that is not past tense)....and that no one is ever or was ever converted in the flesh).....there is no one formula....in fact I as well Ray studied this out and found there are at least a dozen to dos (I stopped searching to be honest), and or things one must do to be saved!......and does this mean that if you leave one out....or do them in the wrong order we are not saved? Of course not.....it simply means the Father did it all for us by way of his son (of course no one really does anything of their own accord and or righteousness)....and by the means we were given the Spirit to have Jesus as Lord .....seems to vary greatly.....I am fascinated that every baptism or those added to the way in the book of Acts never seems to be quite the same! I was water baptized as a baby.....and of course had no acceptance at that point....it was at the age of 21 where I "officially" announced in those dozen ways (boy I hope I did them in the right order!) that Christ was my Lord and I wanted to follow him......with many many many......failures along the way.....Praise our God and Father that Jesus paid for me before I ever drew a breath....because mercy me I tried the to do list and repented trying to please....where in that price has been paid.....and of course he opened my blinded eyes and deaf ears....as well as my dead spirit to his truth.....and what a wonderful life of no confidence in the flesh it has and will continue to be with no more pressure of all that is left for me to do is to make it to Heaven! (I thought surely there is something I must do). Amen my brother Micah....I found your words a comfort to me and remind me of this fact......and I have been a member in the past on this forum a few different times over the years.....not sure if anyone remembers....not that it matters......due to inactivity too long I was removed twice at least......I am still looking for like minded believers and just read a post finding out the L. Ray Lewis has passed on....sad....and his inspiration to me is the light being turned on within me....as our Father used his teachings and words to inspire the time for understanding.....alas the to dos and have become it is finished! thank you and love in Christ to you Micah and everyone here your words on this subject

Patric