How much faith...

[Gina]

I want to play a game: 


How much faith does it take to believe that God would torture most of humanity in a literal lake of fire?

How much faith does it take to believe that God cannot and would not save all?

[space.ace.jase]

*rolls dice*

Yay I rolled a 5!

ohhh wrong type of game my mistake 

[Gina]

No more games space.

[space.ace.jase]

Hahaha now I look like a whackjob...  The guys with the straitjacket are here!

In regards to the questions I'm not quite sure I follow?

How much faith? If I would have to define the word FAITH I would say "belief that is not based on proof" (stolen from dictionary.com) but a belief is either ON or OFF right? Like you either believe one thing or you believe something else entirely?

Sorry maybe I'm not getting it

[Gina]

Now you're talking and on the right track.  This is a very serious matter. 

It takes ZERO faith to believe that God would torture people in literal fire because there's this person [ref. 23 Min in Hell] and that person, and the other person writing things like, "God sent me to hell... and blah, blah, blah!"  So people can "see" it.  Heck, we even have EVIDENCE that the earth's center is molten lava.  Tah dah -- more evidence that there is a "hell of literal fire."

Likewise, they can "see" that God won't save all because after all don't many people die never knowing or hearing the Gospel, or rejecting Christ as their Lord and Savior.  People can totally "see" that.   Therefore, it takes NO faith to believe those things. 

FAITH - THINGS THAT ARE INVISIBLE

Now we will go to the New Testament. How do we know the New Testament is true? I'll just give you one point. I have a lot of reasons why I believe in the scriptures, but I want to give you something rock solid scientific, okay.

Heb 11:1  Now faith is the substance...

No it's not. If it was the "substance" it wouldn't be faith. Faith is either an assumption or a conviction that something is, that you can't prove that it is. At least you can't prove everything about it, maybe some aspect, but not all. Some of it must be accepted merely because it is being stated and you have confidence in the one whose doing the stating. That's what faith is. So a better translation would be; "Now faith is a CONVICTION..." not the substance.

v. 1 ...of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

No! My margin has conviction for "evidence." Theologians with 6 doctorate degrees will quote that, just like this, as that's the way it is. But my center margin says it's wrong. Logic should tell you it's wrong.

It says "evidence".... excuse me when you go in a court of law, when they present evidence... why do they present evidence in a court of law? Because they're not going to accept anybody on faith, that's why. They want the evidence, because when you have evidence, when you've got the smoking gun - the finger prints  - no alibi - probable causer - eyewitnesses - security camera, that's evidence. You don't need faith. You convict the guy on evidence, you don't need faith. 

Faith is a conviction of these things that we HOPE for. Like Paul says, if you have them you don't have to HOPE. These are the things we are still reaching for.

Heb 11:2  For by the elders obtained a good report.
v. 3  Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen hath not been made out of things which appear.

Now I have a Concordant Bible because I think it is one of the best there is. The Concordant Emphatic Diaglott and the Rotherham. But if there is one verse that the Concordant people absolutely butchered this one here, it is pathetic. If you buy a Concordant Bible just scratch out verse 3, it's over the top nonsense.

But look at this, so that "by faith" ...of course they didn't have scientific instruments, this statement can only be made as a statement of faith. Verse 3 "By faith we understand that... things which are seen were not made out of things which appear." Or my margin says, "that are visible." 

Here is my ring, it is something seen. The things that are visible "are made," they are not made from things that are seen or they are made from things that are INVISIBLE, you can say it either way. What? This (ring) is something seen, the things which are seen, were not made of anything that's visible. Now we are going back about 2000 years that they said that. Excuse me?

Now my ring happens to have 2 elements, gold, that's all that gold is, it's one element and diamonds - pure carbon. Now I look at that ring and I see diamonds and I see gold. I can look at it real close and I still see diamonds and gold. You say, 'yea but these old people were smart, they knew that if you broke it apart you would get down to where you wouldn't be able to see it any more. That's what they meant.' Now it doesn't say that these things would be so small you couldn't see them, that said they're not visible. They are invisible - not visible.
 
But let's just go along with the game.



  (Continue reading from How We Got The Bible here:  http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5815.msg47475.html#msg47475 )

[BOLDED, underline emphasis mine]

It takes NO FAITH to believe that God won't save all.

It takes NO FAITH to believe that God will torture most of humanity.

And that's why so many are deceived and duped into believing it.  Not only are they duped into believing it but many of them HOPE for that which they CAN SEE.

On the other hand, it takes a tremendous amount of FAITH to believe that God will save all because you CAN'T "see" it.  That takes real faith [the kind of faith that scripture says it is --  I believe Ray]. 

So, people who believe that God won't save all because they have all this "evidence," as we once believed, they are not pleasing God (I hope that doesn't offend anyone).

We should NEVER, EVER "hope" for a place where God would torture people with literal fire for ever and ever. 

And we should never, ever "hope" that God would not save all.

And here's the clincher:  WITHOUT faith it is impossible to please God.  (Hebrews 11:16)

The end.   

[Joel]

God sends strong delusion to those that don't believe the Truth.

2 Thessalonians 2:11- And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Joel

[Gina]

Exactly!  By why didn't they believe the Truth?


John 9

39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world,
that they who see not might see;
and that they WHO SEE might be made blind.

40 And some of the Pharisees who were with him heard these words,
and said unto him, Are we blind also?

41 Jesus said unto them, If you were blind,
you should have no sin: but now you say,
WE SEE; therefore your sin remains.



Matthew 3

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees
come to his baptism, he [John] said unto them,
O generation of vipers, who has warned you to flee
from the wrath to come?

8 Bring forth therefore fruits befitting for repentance:



Romans 2:4 Or despise you the riches of his goodness
and forbearance and longsuffering;  not knowing that the goodness
of God leads you to repentance?


What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known,
endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:



2 Timothy 2

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver,
but also of wood and of earth; and some to honor, and some to dishonor.

21If a man therefore purge himself from these,
he shall be a vessel unto honor, sanctified,
and fit for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

25In meekness instructing those that oppose them;
if God perhaps will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;



__________________________

I'm sure that's not all the scriptural evidence there is on this subject, but I don't think anyone would disagree that God must grant people the ability to purge themselves [to see and to repent].

[Deborah-Leigh]

No one can do anything independently of God.....~

[Gina]

Yes, all is of God. 

Many moons ago on a forum far far away, I jokingly said:  When I'm called to God to account for my sin and account for why I said what I said, I'll simply say to God:  Because you're making me. And of course that was a play on words.  God is making me .... in His Image!  But  God never makes us sin. We are sinning machines!

But some thought that I meant that God makes people sin.

That was not a good joke and I have seen the error of my way. 

[Deborah-Leigh]

LOL Gina!!!...."the error of MY WAY" is also a play on words! ROFL....at least here, you won't get nailed for it! ~ 

[Gina]

If you say so.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Say what...say what ~

[Gina]

I need clarification too.