GOD LOVES ?

[the truth]

Hello,
After reading Rays paper "Why God loves Us".......5-times now."I have to admit,I just don't understand its application.As I read it it gives me Scripture that God doesn't love the sinner while he is in sinfull state or unconverted.and then there are quotes such as:

Reason Two:
WHY GOD LOVES YOU INDIVIDUALLY

We will now answer the question, "Why Does God Love YOU" as an individual. That is, why does God love you individually, particularly, and in some ways, exclusively? Yes, you are a member of God's family, and a member of the human race, and for this God loves you

So what is there about man that God loves? He hates man's sin and He hates the man who commits the sin. And that IS the way all human beings are. So what is left for God to love?

So,I guess one of my thousands of questions on this teaching is...how does this teaching NOT contradict these verses that come to mind.

Rom 13:8  Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Mat 5:43  Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you

Mat 5:46  For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

Luk 6:27  But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you

Luk 6:32  For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.

And of course there are many others.Just don't understand this teaching can anyone help me better to understand this teaching?

And if it be possible with the understanding that i am not trying to teach or have some other objective other than just trying to understand without contradicting the Scriptures Thanks!Jerry

[the truth]

Hello,John

Thanks John for you response you shared:
The above is quoted from Ray's article.  It makes sense to me.  It's not really Ray's teaching that is bothering you.  Ray quoted multiple scriptures in his article.

Yes I did see that John and agree and did understand that he "commend"His love for us.

and also,
You are having a problem with apparent contradictions in the scriptures, which many do.  None of us can help.  Only God can give you peace and understanding of the scriptures.


Again you are correct John ....That's the whole thing John how can I have peace and understanding if I believe that I may be sinning against the Father if I love the wrong person OR which seems worse don't love all who will be or are my family Eventually?

Again John trust me I do understand  and do agree with what Ray presented in the fact he used Scripture.But as you shared it seems to contradict so many other Scripture.That's my whole enigma. Were would any ones teaching be in truth if they contradict the Scripture....lol.....I know on ever corner right
Anyway,If anyone can help me more to understand this enigma That would be a blessing.

John,Above you said ...It makes sense to you..Can you put that into words that would help me comprehend this teaching.

Also,you shared....
But mankind must repent and change.  If God loved man in his sinful state, then why must mankind repent and change?  Why can't we just be as we are?  This silly notion that God loves the sinner but hates sin is just another simplistic false teaching of the great fallen church and religious system of this age.

I agree with this statement that mankind must repent and change.But isnt this a process and if thats so that means God cant love ANY OF US RIGHT NOW ...because I guess all of us are in some measure OF a sinful state...... NO? Would that mean that God changes if he loves us  or not based on if we are able by His working of the His Spirit not to ever sin again?The Scripture says Only He had the Spirit with-out measure we have with measure.So only Christ be loved by the Father now?

HEHE...told you I have thousand of questions!And I understand if you cant help me with them John ....I totally understand...but i am just asking.God Bless!!

[Kat]

Hi Jerry,

I went back to the transcript on 'Love' and here is a section that I think might help you with this. There is a paragraph that I put in bold that I believe is key to understanding this.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3719.0.html --------------

We've stepped out of Sunday School now, and we're going to a little higher level. You can have this agapao love, for something you hate. What? Yes you can. Proof? God does. He hated Esau, He hates a false witness... He hates people. He doesn't just hate false witnesses, He hates a false witness, that's a person, you see.

The Christian world would have you believe, He loves the world sooo much. But the Concordance version has it right.

John 3:16  For thus God loves the world...

Not how much He loved the world, although it was a lot, but that is not what the word said. It does not say, for God loved the world so much, no. It says this is how He loved the world, that's what it means. He didn't so love the world, He thus loved the world, in this way and this manner. Now in what manner did He agape the world?

John 3:16 ...He gave His only begotten Son...

Okay. But if you say, God so loved the world, then you are insinuating He has phileo love for the world, right. That He has this affectionate, endearment of friendship with the world, because He so loved the world.  NO!

This is the manner He loved them, He loved them with this agapao love, which has the benefit and future of humanity at heart. Nowhere does it say, God phileo loves the world, or any sinner in the world, mark that. This is too deep for the world, they can't accept this, the same way they can't accept that God created evil and uses it often. But we have to deal with what scripture says or you might as well fall under the condemnation of the verses that says, "Because you despise this Word," (Isa 30:12; Jere 23:17), if you won't believe what it says.

Granted there is a couple of places that is not translated right, but not that many. That's why I use the KJV. Even though it has eternal punishment, and there is no such thing as eternal punishment, there is eonian chastisement, two totally different things. Eonian, age lasting chastisement or correction to make you better, is a whole lot different than torture the hell out of you, for all eternality, in fire. I mean these are not two same thoughts, they're totally antithesis towards one another.

So this is the manner in which God loves the world, with agapao love. A love that is undeserved, they're not reciprocating. Let me give you another example of agapao love, not phileo love. Agapao love is when they crucified Christ, and He was dying, He prayed to His Father and said;

Luke 23:34  Father forgive them, for they don't know what they are doing.

Now that's agape love. Father these people are blind and deceived, oh they're fools, and they're hypocrites, blind fools as they called the Pharisees in Matt 23, none the less. Then as it was such a strong condemnation, on the one hand, on the other hand, He says Father forgive them. Is this a contradiction? No, it's not. It's the way God is and we need to be like God.

We can love our neighbor, with an agape love, we don't need to fellowship, hobnob with them or become part of what they are, in any way, shape or form. When God says, love your enemies... If it said you would have to phileo your enemies, then I would just have to take my 9 pages of notes here, tear them up, throw them away. Close the Bible and say, I have not a clue as to what this thing about love is, not a clue.

But I have checked it out for many, many hours now, and I understand that the Bible does not contradict in this area. God - Jesus Christ, never said you have heard, them of old say, you should hate your enemies. First of all, God never taught to hate your enemies. Well, where did they hear that of old? About five times in the book of Psalms, by David, who went to his death bed hating his enemies, telling his son to kill them and make it bloody. That was King David, not God. But people read the Psalms and so you heard it said. Yes, you did hear it said, but not of God.

But Christ said, but I say unto you, love your enemies - agapao your enemies. Can you love your enemies and hate them at the same time? You say, 'no you can't, that's a contradiction.' Well, let's think about that for a second. Could God hate Esau and love him a the same time? Not only could He, the Bible tells us that, and it shows that He did. He shows more favor to Jacob then He did for Esau. Yet you can find some pretty strong promises and blessings (even though He said I hate Esau), you can find blessings on Esau in the Bible I can show you them.

God said, I hate liars and people that cause discord and everything, yet I gave My own Son for the world. Why? Because I agapao them. God thinks beyond their couple of three score and ten years of hate and criminality. I look beyond that, and I see their future - agapao. Maybe we need to learn to do that too, if we're going to be like God... right?

We look at these guys cutting somebody's head off, with a rusty butcher knife and your going to say, oh I love them? That's almost perverted. I'm going to take some flack for this, don't get me wrong, people will say, 'oh Ray what is he teaching now.'

When you see these people screaming out of fear and terror, for their life. Now I haven't seen that, but they do show it on the internet. Michael Savage has it on his. You can watch them cut their heads off, and screaming and screaming while they cut their heads off. Now you tell me you want to run up and give those people a hug and a kiss on the cheek, and tell them how much you love them. Anyone - don't be intimidated, if you think so tell me. I know people who are so self-righteous, that they would say yes I would. If you would, you are perverted.

Can you look beyond what they are doing, and at how filthy, corrupt and evil they are, and see a time when that evil can be burnt out of them. They can be brothers in the kingdom of God. Can you do that through the spirit of God? I can, that's agape love.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

[the truth]

Kat,

Now thats absolutley beautiful Kat!And Thank you Yeshua for in parting that to Ray by your Spirit..... Lord!Wow...how thankful i am Kat that you took the time to search that out..Thank you so much!

Ray always did a great job getting HiS POINT ACROSS IN  his teachings.Even if you dont always agree with everything he taught you knew were he was coming from.Its just that this time I was confused by it.


If only I could have remembered that teaching i could have reconciled it!I cant say that I want have other questions about this but at least I can see that God does and we should agape others as well!

If anyone has anything else to add that would be great!

[Dave in Tenn]

Though maybe less directly related to the question, here's another view on this matter of love.

http://bible-truths.com/kiss.htm

It's worth remembering too, I think, that the carnal mind is enmity (deep-seated hatred) toward God.  Who does the reconciling there?  Do we suddenly love God out of our own free-will?  How did He do the reconciling?  It's humbling thinking on the truth that man hates God with his carnal mind (regardless of how many kisses he bestows on Him).   
   

[Ricky]

I think God has the future planned out for the reason why He loves us and the rest of His creation. I can't see us knowing that answer in this life. I sometimes think about why we love Him, and sit back and hope for the best that we are or at least trying to please Him. In any case a wise man may want to be prepared for the worst.   Bless u all.  Ricky

[Joel]

1st John 4:8 says that God is Love.
God is Spirit, and he loves because he is Love. I am not love but I can love by the Spirit of God indwelling from within.
Galatians 5:22-23 listing the fruits of the Spirit, puts Love at the very top of the list.

Joel

[Deborah-Leigh]

God loves His Image within us.  God is making us into that Image He loves, of Himself.

Love of God's Image within, is the work of God. Grace IS Divine influence on the heart.

Identify either with falsely perceived "own works" Ref LOF 15C "Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord has performed His whole work ['For it is GOD which works in you {King of Assyria} both to will {'Howbeit HE means not so neither does HIS heart think so...'} and to do {'Shall I not, as I have DONE..." Says the King of Assyria in his presumed free will} of HIS good pleasure' Phil. 2:13] upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will PUNISH the fruit of the stout [ARROGANT] heart of his high [HAUGHTY] looks." (Isa.10:12)."

or by Grace, as Jesus, identify with God.   

Serving two masters is not merely impossible, it is a statement of absolute Truth!   

Arc