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[nightmare sasuke]

Will the saints that died before Christ be in the first resurrection or must they go through the lake of fire to come to knowledge of Jesus? How exactly does it work; did the Old Testament saints believe in Jesus? Yahweh, after all is technically Jesus not yet manifest in the flesh, so does that mean the Old Testament saints openly accepted Christ receiving the promise for eonian life?

[broken]

The work of Christ is retroactive.

There are a few concepts that must first be understood here.

1. God is timeless.  As such, any moment for him is an eternal moment, so that anything he does at any given time is true for eternity.  Therefore, Christ's death was sufficient not only for those from the point of his death forward, but for those in the past also.

2. Those who were justified before Christ were justified by faith, not by works.  Therefore, their justification is whole...they need not be "purged" of any remaining sin following their deaths.  

3. The first resurrection is for all of the saints, not only those who came to faith explicitly in Christ.  It is for those who came prior to Christ as well as those who followed him.

That's what I've got in the few minutes before I go to bed.

Brandon

[davey C.]

Are you sure about that Brandon?Heb 11:39These saints desired to see what we see and live in this day and did not.And are you saying there is no carnality in them that needs to be purged out of them,many concubines and davids orders for killing his enemies on his death bed.1st or 2nd kings 2 I beleive.We are all saved by faith and this not of ourselves but a gift from God.Not by works lest any man should boast.Most of humanity will be in the second ressurection where they will learn righteousness.If we say Lord Lord we must also do the things He says and be faithful to the end.These old saints did not have the new covenant to live by which is not in accord with the old.love to you all davey c

[ertsky]

i was reminded of these verses

Heb 11:38  (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
Heb 11:39  And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

WOW!

and this verse always just slays me

Mat 11:11  Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

when i read verses like that my jaw just hits the floor

Luk 1:38  And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

f

[nightmare sasuke]

Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

By that verse alone, I'd say they aren't going to be in the first resurrection. Also, remember those in the first resurrection are those who died for Christ's NAME. And seeing how the OT saints didn't really know Jesus' name (his new covenant) makes one further realize they will not be in the first resurrection.

One argument I always make is this: "All of death and Hades is cast into the lake of fire, and since those before Christ will not be in the first resurrection, people like David, being in Hades, will be cast into 'Hell for all eternity,' if you're [the person I'm arguing with] correct." But if the saints are in the first resurrection, that argument is foiled.

[Kevin]

Conversion. Was anyone really converted before Jesus'death.

[Peacetroll]

IMHO;

Those born from above (Natural branches) also known in O.T as a "Man of God", will return to the above for they are not of this world and never were.

Those grafted in (Elected, many called few chosen) will not die for their spirit has been intermeshed if you will, with that of Jesus' making it a new spirit and thereby a new Man/Woman.  This spirit (The new Person) can not die.

Those who are not in Jesus Christ (walk in the narrow Path), will return during the Millinium where they will hear the truth shouted from the Housetops in clarity.  Then they will seek the Lord Jesus in Zion were living waters (knowledge and true bread) flow.  No nation will war and Jesus will rule for 1000 years.  

With this last statment I will end what foggy knowledge I have of the prophecies concerning the Millinium, ...those who believe "even in his name" will escape this Millinium and will be resurrected at the last trump (escaping the second death).  Those born from above will come back with Jesus to rule during this time (Lo' the Lord comes with ten thousands of his Saints).

The elect will stay in the equivalent of Eden awaiting the new heaven and new earth were goodness and mercy (Light of the Lamb) will shine world without end.

Peace and love to all those in Jesus Christ and with sincere hope that all humans will come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Peacetroll.

[love_magnified]

Ah, so even though the Bible says that every man shall die, which is appointed, you are saying some will not.  :roll:

[davey C.]

Not sure you understand what I am talkin about peacetroll.Why is it that people fear death or hang on to the never die theory?There would be no need of a ressurection at all if that were so.There is coming a resurection of the dead not of the living .love gotta run baby to take care of sorry I can't go on into this.davey c

[broken]

Are you sure about that Brandon?Heb 11:39These saints desired to see what we see and live in this day and did not.And are you saying there is no carnality in them that needs to be purged out of them,many concubines and davids orders for killing his enemies on his death bed.1st or 2nd kings 2 I beleive.We are all saved by faith and this not of ourselves but a gift from God.Not by works lest any man should boast.Most of humanity will be in the second ressurection where they will learn righteousness.If we say Lord Lord we must also do the things He says and be faithful to the end.These old saints did not have the new covenant to live by which is not in accord with the old.love to you all davey c

I think you defeated your own point, if I'm hearing you right, but it was hard to decipher exactly what you were trying to say.  

If we are justified by faith alone, then righteousness is imputed to us by the faithfulness of Christ (Gal. 2:16), including those who lived prior to the incarnation.  Therefore, there is no unrighteousness of which they need to be purged.  To say that those who are justified by faith still have unrighteousness which must be destroyed is to depricate the sacrifice of Christ.  It says that Christ's death was not enough to suffice for all sin...there is still sin to be paid for.  I'm not sure that's a place we can go.

Brandon

[ertsky]

Therefore, there is no unrighteousness of which they need to be purged. To say that those who are justified by faith still have unrighteousness which must be destroyed is to depricate the sacrifice of Christ.

woah! Brandon no it isn't

we want to magnify Christ and depricate the man of sin

but we cannot magnify Christ by denying His word

Heb 5:8  Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9  And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

if faith alone were the doctrine of Christ why would we need to be scourged ?

Heb 12:6  For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

to say if we simply believe it is all that is required makes James statement very relevant

Jam 2:19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jam 2:20  But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Therefore, there is no unrighteousness of which they need to be purged.

sorry Brandon but that is just plain WRONG!

Jam 3:2  For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

1Jo 1:8  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1Jo 2:6  He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

well how about it? how many christians walk even as He walked

how many christians commit all sorts of sins

oh but they are righteous by faith someone will say

Jam 2:17  Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

2Co 3:18  But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Rev 17:14  These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

1Th 5:24  Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

f

[ertsky]

Heb 12:14  Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

holiness by faith sure

but not theoretical holiness by faith

REAL holiness by faith

or shall we continue in sin that faith may abound??

GOD FORBID!!

holiness that is Christ in us

not the theoretical christ

THE REAL CHRIST!!

Rev 17:14  These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Mat 10:22  And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

f

[davey C.]

welll brandon wouldn't you know,I have a hard time making sense as I have so little time.Yes Christ paid in full for all flesh and sin,but that is not the baptismn that He baptises everyone with,he baptises with fire and that my dear friend purifies the sinner,and brings about good fruit.Not making an oath and loving your enemies doing good to those who persecute you,basicly overcoming the lust of the flesh the lust of the eyes and the pride of life.We don't have one virtue without Christ burning out the bad,hence baptismn with fire.And noone can come to the Father but through His Son Yashua.Living in the old covenant is actually filthy rags(unrighteousness)For the scripture saith our righteousness is like a dirty menstral cloth,of NO value,used up and useless.This is the contract that old testament set apart ones lived in.I don't know if time has anything to do with making sense by the way.Those who are with Christ in that blessed and holy ressurection are called chosen and FAITHFUL.But there is only one name given by which men are being saved by.And did you read what david had to say to solomon on his death bed.its 1 kings 2 And I did see that abraham had concubines.Eye for an eye was the rule back then and the new is not in accord with that .love and peace.davey c

[roperfam]

Heb 12:14  Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

holiness by faith sure

but not theoretical holiness by faith

REAL holiness by faith

or shall we continue in sin that faith may abound??

GOD FORBID!!

holiness that is Christ in us

not the theoretical christ

THE REAL CHRIST!!

Rev 17:14  These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Mat 10:22  And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

f

Hey ertsky, thanks for your two posts, just what I needed to read this morning.