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Author Topic: The "Fall"?  (Read 1084 times)

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paulfisher

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The "Fall"?
« on: October 16, 2012, 02:32:06 AM »

Hi Everyone,

If the creature was created in vanity, was there ever this 'Fall' of mankind or Adam that is so popular in the Church? I cannot find any Scripture that mentions this kind of 'Fall' that the Church teaches.

Paul
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: The "Fall"?
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2012, 02:44:37 AM »

Hi Everyone,

If the creature was created in vanity, was there ever this 'Fall' of mankind or Adam that is so popular in the Church? I cannot find any Scripture that mentions this kind of 'Fall' that the Church teaches.

Paul

Nope, no fall.  ;D

Man was never in a position to fall from to begin with.  8)

From rays article http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html

So what pray tell does all this stuff have to do with Mother Eve’s sin in the garden? A lot—everything. The Apostle John classifies all sins into just three categories under one heading.

LOVE NOT THE WORLD—THREE CATEGORIES OF SIN

"Love NOT the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father IS NOT IN HIM. For [for means ‘because’] ALL that is in the world,

the lust of the FLESH,

the lust of the EYES,

and the pride of LIFE,

is not of the Father, but is of the world.

And the world passes away, and the lust thereof: but he that does the will of God abides for ever
" (I John 2:15-17).

Notice that "…ALL that is in the world…"—all the sins of the world, have their origin in one of these three categories of sin that proceeds "out of THE HEART." Not out of the "will" or out of the "mind," but "out of THE HEART." The "will" and the "mind" are subject to the "heart," and not the other way around. The heart is not subject to the will, neither is the heart subject to the mind, but rather both of these are subject to the birthplace of all human functions—the HEART!

Simply and unarguably, Jesus states as a fact, that all evil thoughts and sins proceed OUT OF THE HEART.

Now, with all that said, let’s prove once and for all that Mother Eve and Adam were (1) NOT spiritually perfect in any way shape or form, BEFORE they actually ate of the forbidden fruit, and (2) neither did they sin and then partake of the forbidden fruit through the operation of something called "free will."

"And when the woman saw that the tree was GOOD FOR FOOD… Gen. 3:6:

"…lust of the FLESH…" (I John 2:15)
 
and that it was PLEASANT TO THE EYES… Gen. 3:6:

"…lust of the EYES…" (I John 2:15)
 
and a tree to be DESIRED TO MAKE ONE WISE Gen. 3:6:

"…the PRIDE OF LIFE" (I John 2;15)

Eve committed EVERY CATEGORY OF SIN THERE IS IN THE WORLD, before… BEFORE she actually ate of the forbidden fruit.

ALL of Eve’s evil thoughts of pride, vanity, lust, greed, disobedience, and finally thievery proceeded NOT from Eve’s supposed "free will," but rather from out of her HEART. And the only reason these sins could come out of her heart is because THEY WERE ALREADY IN THERE FROM THE BEGINNING. BEFORE Eve actually ate of the forbidden fruit, she committed every category of sin in the world. And need I remind us that we were also, ALL IN ADAM, before he ate of the tree (I Cor. 15:22). Will we deny our own eyes and the Scriptures we have just read?


God bless,

Alex

P.S. Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately WEAK: who can know it?"
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 02:50:25 AM by lilitalienboi16 »
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

paulfisher

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Re: The "Fall"?
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2012, 04:28:13 AM »

Thank you so much Alex for clearing that up for me. All I keep hearing in the Church is "the fall of man" over and over again and I'm thinking "what fall"? Not according to Gen 3:6 that's for sure.

The Mormons are particularly insistent on this, that Adam and Eve were perfect before they fell after eating the forbidden fruit. Well, if they were perfect why did they sin by eating the forbidden fruit?

They say that Adam and Eve KNEW that they were suppose to eat the forbidden fruit ANYWAY so that they could fall and begin the human race and the Plan of Salvation.

But in verse 13 Eve says she was beguiled...

...not only that but if they want to say that the bible cannot be trusted to be translated correctly, their own scriptures in their 'Pearl of Great Price" book of Moses 4:19 in which Joseph Smith copied the KJV Gen 3 word for word into his 'new' scriptures, backs up the translation of the KJV.

Why do I know about the Mormons? Joseph Smith is my third great grandfather through a polygamous marriage... I spent 52 years a Mormon.

Since I've left that 'faith' I've noticed that 99% or more ex-Mormons become either Humanists, Agnostics, Atheists or associate themselves with the 'mother' Church of Christendom.

So just because a member discovers the Mormon Church is a fraud DOES NOT mean they discover the truth. For me, back by the end of 2008, I knew the Church was a fraud yet I fully expected, at that time, that I might never discover the truth in my mortal life yet prayed every day that God would still lead me to it.

Well in less then 60 days into 2009 I was led to Bible-Truths.com. I immediately started reading the series on 'Free Will' as this dogma that Church SO EMPHASIZES, had caused me the most pain my entire life. Needless to say I was blown away. The burden that was lifted from me was beyond words. That was my experience...

... it's different for every one of course, but isn't the truth amazing? I've been reading and studying Ray's information for over 3 years now almost daily and yet I am still completely amazed at the depth of spirit and knowledge Ray had. Just incredible. The joy I can feel sometimes is so overwhelming and humbling. I can never thank God enough for Ray, these two sites and all of you!

Paul
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 04:32:11 AM by paulfisher »
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Extol

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Re: The "Fall"?
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2012, 11:07:31 AM »

Glad you're here, Paul! Coming to Bible-Truths was a life-changing experience for me, and it sounds like it was for you too.  :)

The church (whether Mormon, Protestant, Catholic, or Orthodox) likes to emphasize the Fall for two reasons. Well, it's really the same thing said two different ways:

1) It gets God off the hook. No branch of Christianity wants to believe that God created evil (Isa. 45:7) and works all things after the counsel of His will (Eph. 1:11).

2) It provides us, very early in the Bible, with an obvious example of "free will," giving the church one of the foundations of her doctrine. I remember when I was a teenager my younger brother and I (good church-going Christians) would have conversations about this and say things like "Man, Adam was such an idiot! We could be living in a perfect world now if he would have just been satisfied with all the other fruit!" (I think that's another reason why people like to emphasize the Fall. We can lay the blame at the foot of Adam and Eve, and puff ourselves up by thinking "I wouldn't have been so stupid.")
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