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Author Topic: The two wills of God  (Read 1336 times)

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patmokgoko

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The two wills of God
« on: October 20, 2012, 05:03:38 AM »

Is it true that God has "decreed will and moral will" or is it just one of the theological man made doctrine to hide something?My understanding is that God's will is God's will and it should not be broken into pieces.Help!
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Arion

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Re: The two wills of God
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2012, 09:52:53 AM »

I like the way that Ray had explained it.  We have the will of God and the plan of God.

Ray asks who has gone against the will of God?  The answer of course is everyone.  But, who has gone against the plan of God?  The answer is no one. 

Rom 11:32  For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
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Patric

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Re: The two wills of God
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2012, 02:11:38 PM »

Amen. Of course very few believe that scripture. As it shows who our Father really is! Having mercy upon them all.
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Samson

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Re: The two wills of God
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2012, 02:35:03 PM »


Hi Patmokgoko,

Is it true that God has "decreed will and moral will" or is it just one of the theological man made doctrine to hide something?My understanding is that God's will is God's will and it should not be broken into pieces.Help!

I like the way that Ray had explained it.  We have the will of God and the plan of God.

Ray asks who has gone against the will of God?  The answer of course is everyone.  But, who has gone against the plan of God?  The answer is no one. 

Rom 11:32  For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

I'd like to give some details to what Arion stated above followed by some excerpt's from the Myth of Free Will & an Email or Two of Ray's. Firstly, the Greek word Boulema is translated Plan or Purpose and as Arion stated, nobody goes against or has ever gone against God's Purpose or Plan and it's part of God's Purpose that Mankind goes against His Will for a time. The Greek Word Thelema is translated Will, God's Will or desire is that Man lives a righteous life, but Mankind is Carnal and without God' intervention, Man's Will is to not live righteously, because Man is Carnal & it's His nature to desire to Sin and that too is part of God's Plan, at least at the present time. Even God's Chosen Elect sin in the present Age, but in their case, sin has no Dominion over them or sin doesn't overcome them where it becomes a regular practice. Everyone that's not of the Chosen Elect are overcome by a practice of Sin, in one area or another. Read some excerpts below from Ray's Free Will Series and an Email or two to explain more fully for you with some examples and better details.

So God has mercy upon whom He will have mercy and whom He wills, He hardens. But when I tell people that this is how God operates, they find fault with it. They say that isn’t fair. They say we are mere puppets if this is the way God operates. How can God blame and punish people for doing what God Himself caused them to do in the first place? The Apostle Paul got the same carnal-minded criticisms of God’s plan:

    "You will say then unto me, Why does He [God] yet find fault? For who has resisted His will [Greek: boulema—‘resolve, purpose, a deliberate intention’]?" (Rom. 9:19).

After explaining to the Romans that God raised Pharaoh up for a specific purpose in God’s plan, Paul foresees the attitudes of his listeners. They will reason that if God is the One behind our actions, and we are totally incapable of doing other than what He determines we will do, then WHY DOES HE FIND FAULT WITH US WHEN WE SIN?

First it is most important that we look at and understand the word translated "will" in Rom. 9:19. It is not the usually Greek word, which is translated "will" hundreds of times in the New Testament. This Greek word boulema is used but twice in the Bible, here in Rom. 9:19 and in Acts 27:43 where it is translated "purpose."

So the question that Paul is setting up is not "…who has resisted His will?" but rather, "who has resisted His purpose [His plan, His intention]?"

To the question, "…who has resisted His will?" the answer is: EVERYONE! But when properly translated, to the question, "who has resisted His purpose?" the answer is: ABSOLUTELY NO ONE!

God has a will and God has a plan and purpose to reach that will. And no small part of reaching His desired will is to set men against His will, just as He did with Pharaoh. But no one has ever hindered God’s plan and purpose in reaching that goal and stated will. God’s will, will be done in His time.

So back to Paul’s questioners: If God causes us to do what we do, and no one ever has or ever can go against or resist that purpose of God, why does He blame us when we sin? And again, I will let Paul answer, since the question was directed to him. But you know what? Paul does not even deign to answer their question. That’s right, Paul proposes the question and then does not directly answer it. He considers the very question itself too demeaning, if not blasphemous to answer. Instead He says this:

    "Nay but, O man, WHO ARE YOU that replies against God? Shall the thing formed [that’s us] say to Him that formed it, [that’s GOD] Why have You made me thus? Has not the Potter [GOD] power over the clay [man], of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" (Rom. 9:20-21).

To argue that when God prophesies, states, and intends that someone do a particular thing, that the person is still at liberty because of his supposed free will, to not do what God has said, is absurdity on the highest level. Yet this IS what the theory of free will demands.

The fact that God has a foreknowledge of everything proves that free will is an impossibility, as true free will could alter the future and therefore God could not have an absolute and true knowledge of the future. It is idiocy to state that man has a free will that is not made or caused to do as it does, and yet state that God knows in advance the only possible choice that a person must make.

How can one believe that if God states that a person will make choice A, that he is nonetheless still at liberty to make choice B? Let me restate that: Can God say that you WILL make choice A, but you can make choice B?

Can God say that such and such, WILL happen but that it doesn’t need to happen? The disciples WILL forsake and deny Christ, but they have a free choice NOT to forsake and deny Him? God knows in advance that something WILL be a certain way, and yet it doesn’t have to be that way? Am I going too fast for anyone?

Not only does the theory of free will demand that man be able to think uncaused thoughts and performed uncaused tasks, but that he can in fact, do these uncaused things contrary to and in opposition to God’s preordained stated plan and purpose. He must be blind indeed, who cannot or will not see that such a haughty presumption lifts such an one’s ego to that of a veritable "god’ in his own heart and mind.

IT ALL STARTS WITH THE HEART

ALL have sinned because it takes SPIRITUAL POWER not to sin. And God did not give our first parents that kind of spiritual power. They were spiritually weak as water.

We read in Jer. 17:9:

    "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

We know from Scripture that God "…creates EVIL…" (Isa. 45:7), but did He also create man’s heart in a "desperately wicked" state? No, He did not. God did not FORCE upon man, at creation, a "desperately WICKED" heart. Let’s read this verse from the Jewish Publication Society,

    "The heart is deceitful above all things, And it is EXCEEDING WEAK—who can know it."

God did not create man’s heart "desperately wicked" as the KJV suggest, but rather He did create the human heart, "exceeding WEAK."

The seat of emotions and desires is the HEART. And God made the heart "exceeding WEAK." Man did not sin because he "freely willed" to sin, but because his heart was so exceedingly WEAK. That is why it takes next to nothing to persuade the heart of man to DESIRE SIN.

Jesus Christ Himself taught us that EVIL THOUGHTS, MURDERS, BLASPHEMIES, ADULTERIES, etc., all start, begin, originate, proceed, out from THE HEART.

Once the heart senses a feeling or emotion, it begins to desire something. These very thoughts of desire emanate out from the heart, seeking fulfillment. At this point in the process the will is manifested. It now becomes the driving force within you to accomplish the thoughts and emotions of the heart. The will is not the original instigator in this chain of events; it is not even the second in line, but rather the third.

    The will of man has no power until first his heart DESIRES,

    Second these desires are formed into actual THOUGHTS,

    Then at this third stage the will purposes to find fulfillment for all that is coming out of the heart.

Some Emails of Ray's, only responses shown.

Dear Chris:
Many people feel like you do, Chris, and I receive hundreds of emails stating the same. Actually there are many more thousands who read my site and feel the same but are ashamed to admit it in writing.  It is good to feel as you do for whatever period God deems necessary. Many ask me how to be a PERFECT servant of God, TODAY?  The answer is, God will bring you along and take you through the things that He has already foreknown for you from before the foundation of the world, and nothing you can do or think or say will change God's plan or hurry it up. Nobody wants to suffer in the flesh, not physically, financially, socially, mentally, morally, emotionally, or spiritually.  Yet it is God purpose for us to go through these things.  "...It is an experience of EVIL God has given to the sons of humanity to HUMBLE them by it"  (Ecc. 1:13, Concordant Old Testament Version).
 
God is with you Chris, even when you think that maybe He isn't.

Gal 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

God be with you,

Ray

 Dear Sandy:  People go against God's will ALL DAY LONG. That's what most

    peoples' lives consist of--going against God's will.  It is God's purpose, plan, and

    intentions that absolutely no one has ever or ever will go against.  Listen:  It is

    God's purpose and plan that people GO AGAINST HIS WILL. He purposes for

    people to go against His will. It is God's will that we all become PERFECT as He

    is perfect, but it is in His sovereign plan that we all live very imperfect lives before

    God begins to change us into perfecion.

    God be with you,

    Ray

Dear Alex:

We must distinguish between God's "will" as a noun meaing His ultimate purpose and destination of things, and God's "plan" to achieve His "will."  It is God's will that mankind live righteously, but it is His purpose, plan, and intention that they first live UNrighteously.  The first is a necessary precursor to achieve the second. God commands men to do the impossible.  This too is a necessary precursor for man's learning. We must be humbled in our utter inability to do God's perfect will, before we will ever repent of our weakness and wickedness.  And understand that God does not force us to sin. We sin voluntarily from our hearts, and in so doing it is only right and good that we should be punished for sinning. Our hearts and minds must be converted from what they are into the Image of God's Son.

God be with you,

Ray

Hope that some of the above material helps, it helped Me while looking it up as I meet my day of surgery this coming Thursday, emphasizing to Me that God's Will shall take place and I want the same mindset to have faith that it will occur, regardless of what I want to happen, God's Will Be done.

Kind Regards, Samson.
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indianabob

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Re: The two wills of God
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2012, 03:30:28 PM »

thanks Brad, great and helpful examples for us to consider.

Our thoughts and prayers will be with you in your surgery this Thursday.

Indiana Bob
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