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[SDDiver]

My wife and I have been trying to conceive unsuccessfully for the past 8 years and are now considering In Vitro Fertilization (IVF). As you may know, with IVF multiple eggs are fertilized, producing multiple embryos, of which only the 2 or 3 most likely to survive are implanted into the uterus. The remaining embryos are frozen. Sometimes they are implanted for a subsequent pregnancy, often times they are used for research or destroyed.

I'm seeking scripture that can help us deal with this according to God's will. A verse or two that can tell us when life begins. I haven't been able to find any.

[Patric]

Genesis 2:7, Job 33:4,  Ezekiel 37:5&6,  Exodus 21:22,  (Psalm 139:13, 16) (Jeremiah 1:5) are obvious ones. The law says that no clone can be alive more than 6 days to avoid such a delimina. I am sure doctors, theologians, parents and everyone has some conviction on the subject. These scriptures may help you to define better. But lack the answer. I have read them, and Exodus 21:22 deals with the fact that an unborn fetus has been miscarried by the man, the punishment is a fine and not death. Thus implying that once the fetus takes a breath it is alive. The others talk of being known and put together in the womb by the Father's very own hand and or being known before conception even has taken place! I for one am no expert on the question or topic. But These scriptures have opened my eyes to the Spirit. (Luke 1:39-44) This passage shows me that the baby in the womb shows joy! very encouraging.

[acomplishedartis]

Hi friend

Just wanted to let you know that I hope the best for you and your wife. Me too, I am no expert on the question or topic but still wanted to encourage you to keep on looking for answers and try to do what you believe to be the right thing to do.

That was all I was about to say, but...because of the recent post that I made regarding 'the term spirit', I think I have some quotes that maybe could help. Or at list it will make us all to ponder.

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(I will quote Ray from emails that he had answer to try to make this shorter)

It's obvious that when we talk about 'the heart' (our deepest feeling, motivations, emotions), we are talking about the brain.


''The spirit HAS NO CONSCIOUSNESS, not even in life. When a doctor puts someone under to operate, the person is NOT DEAD, he still has his spirit, but he has NO CONSCIOUSNESS. We need a brain to have soul and consciousness. When someone shoots you through the brain, you LOSE YOUR SOUL.''

''When our spirit is combined with a body, then and ONLY THEN do we have "soul" which is consciousness. At death no one has consciousness, or it wouldn't be death.''

''Nothing can live without "spirit." Spirit IS life (Ecc. 8:8; Ecc. 12:7; Luke 23:46;  I Cor. 2:11; etc.).  There is no consciousness in our spirit alone. There is only consciousness (soul) when man's spirit is combined with a body.''

"For the living know [when the spirit is still IN man] that they shall die: but the DEAD [when the spirit is returned to God--see Chapt. 3:19-20]  KNOW NOT ANY THING...."  (Ecc. 9:5).

We -conscious humans- are living Souls. There are strong reasons way we humans are so different from monkeys. (well, at list most of us...

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Here an interesting quote by a Professor of Cognitive and Behavioral Biolo­gy:

''The Road to Awareness

But when does the magical journey of consciousness begin? Consciousness requires a sophisticated network of highly interconnected components, nerve cells. Its physical substrate, the thalamo-cortical complex that provides consciousness with its highly elaborate content, begins to be in place between the 24th and 28th week of gestation. Roughly two months later synchrony of the electroencephalographic (EEG) rhythm across both cortical hemispheres signals the onset of global neuronal integration. Thus, many of the circuit elements necessary for consciousness are in place by the third trimester. By this time, preterm infants can survive outside the womb under proper medical care. '' http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=when-does-consciousness-arise

[acomplishedartis]

(Luke 1:39-44) This passage shows me that the baby in the womb shows joy!

Luk 1:44  For lo! as the sound of thy salutation came into mine ears, the babe in my womb, leapt in exultation.  (Rotherham)

I hope you don't think that the babe in the womb was consciously happy for what was going on, or that mary was implying that the movement that she felt was the babe in the womb trying to say something. That was a 'non literal' exprecion/exaggeration from Mary, since she was so exited. 

[SDDiver]

Thank you Moises.

[Kat]

Gen 2:7  then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature. (ESV)

Job 12:10  In his hand is the life of every living thing and the breath of all mankind.

Job 33:4  The Spirit of God made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

Job 27:3  As long as my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils,

What I see in these verses is that the breath/spirit seems to be connected to the life in a person. This seems to apply to animals as well.

Gen 7:15  And they went in to Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, in which is the breath of life.

There are a few Scriptures that mention somebody being known by God "in the womb" or even the elect "before the foundation of the world."

Isa 49:1  Listen to me, O coastlands, and give attention, you peoples from afar. The LORD called me from the womb, from the body of my mother he named my name.

Eph 1:4  according as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

So to me this just expresses the all knowing sovereignty of God. Certainly if He knows the end from the beginning (Isa 46:10), He already knows every single person that He intends to give life and what there life will be as well and yes before they are even born.

Just some thougths.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[acomplishedartis]

Thank you Moises.

glad, if it helped, somehow.

looking for asnwers exiting. Like figuring out a puzzle.

[acomplishedartis]

Eph 1:4  according as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

So to me this just expresses the all knowing sovereignty of God. Certainly if He knows the end from the beginning (Isa 46:10), He already knows every single person that He intends to give life and what there life will be as well and yes before they are even born.

Rather that ''where does life begin?''. Maybe the questions should be ''where does soul begin?''

I love that verse on Eph. because it clearly shows 'predestination', and predestination tramples free-will automatically. However, I would not be so sure that predestination implies that an early babe womb is already a living soul.  (Kat, If you didn't meant to imply that by posting this verse, I apologize).

 ''breath/spirit seems to be connected to the life in a person. This seems to apply to animals as well.''

If Spirit is life. Spirit doesn't die. It returns to God. So, When does God begin?