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aionian punishment

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Dave in Tenn:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6636.0.html

This is the thread that Alex 'bumped' that may make a good companion for your question.

I have a fairly utilitarian view of what 'punishments' are set:  To truly change a heart, what works?  When I look around, I don't see prison working.  I don't see torture working.  I don't see beating children working.  I don't see wars really working, or politics, or religion, or philosophy.  Many punishments make things worse most of the time.  The rest of the time, they only affect behavior--maybe even only temporarily--but do so at the expense of the relationship.  I don't even see the fear of punishment working much of the time.  It never worked for me to change my heart.  I may be weird, but I'm not that unusual. 

It is worth remembering, I think, that 'good' is ALSO judged.  Is making people better (refining the good, producing the character of God in the fruit of His Spirit) punishment?  Yes, it happens under pressure and duress.  It's not all fun and games.  But you can't 'whip' or torture or maim somebody into being full of love, joy, peace, faith, etc.  These things may happen, and God always uses and intends evil for good, but it only 'works' for those who believe.  It's not enough to make somebody 'act right'.  My soul, didn't Israel prove that over and over?   

Whatever is working for you to change your heart and increase the Character and Spirit of God, I think will be what works for everybody.  Only the timing and the setting are different.  I see the next age as more work, but work done free of frailty and lusts and with the power of God.

Paul said, with a changed heart,

Rom 7:19-20  For what good I desire, I do not do. But the evil I do not desire, this I do.  But if I do what I do not desire, it is no longer I working it out, but the sin dwelling in me.

Rom 7:24,25  O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord!...

Paul isn't going to be a wretched man in the kingdom!  The good that he wanted to do, he will be able to do.  And the evil he did not want to do, he won't do.  What good did he want to do?  Among other things, he wanted to bring the ministry of reconciliation to the world and to help raise up people from babes to full maturity as they experienced their lives.  What evil did he not want to do?  He'd already had a changed heart and had stopped going around intentionally harming people.  What evil (that he did not want to do, but did) was it, then?  A few bad habits?  I used to think so, but I doubt that very much now.

We're weak in this life.  Even with our hearts changed, we can't do the good we want to do.  Maybe we don't know what it IS.  Maybe we do, but the odds and opposition are stacked too hard against us.  Maybe even the good we want to do ends up doing harm along the way.  Maybe that's the evil a converted Paul couldn't help but do.  Story of my life.  Wretched man that I am.  It ain't always gonna be this way. 

Who's going to save me from this body of death?  I thank God, through Jesus Christ, I will be saved though as by fire.  The good REFINED, the worthless REMOVED.  That's what the world is anxiously waiting for.  Each in his own turn.  One saving others, others saving still more others.  That's what Jesus did, that's what our brother Paul emulated.  There's our examples, I think.  The younger brothers will do what the Elder did and does. 

I'd be fearful to pronounce any 'punishment' on mankind or an individual in the Kingdom beyond life in the flesh.  When God's (righteous) judgements are in the earth, the whole world will learn righteousness.  What is righteousness?  How are we supposed to teach what we don't know?  What is righteous judgement?  Whatever else it is, it is RIGHT.  It will do the job required to change men's hearts and make them in the image of God, conformed to Christ.  So for me, it's back to 'What works?'           
     

 



   

Patric:
I once read where L. Ray Smith mentioned that since the Jews had no concept of heaven or hell.....the Christians ended up adopting the same concept of that of the Greeks and Egyptians.....Heaven and Hell were rewards, and punishments for how you lived your life.....According to the scholars of those days.....if one had some fear of punishment maybe there would be some semblance of control to obey the laws of the land. They invented rewards for a good life, and punishments for bad life. Of course the trustee Christians could be counted on to further add to the pot of this theory! So it was not the religious who invented the idea of reward for a clean life....or punishment for bad life. This was credited to those with the ability to put fear into the people.  If the bad guys do not fear something or have any fear of punishment, then they would just do anything they wanted. So to help make them more docile, and or inspire a heart change! I remember reading something along the lines that L. Ray Smith mentioned this in a letter or email about this that made sense to me as well. Man made fear obviously does not bring about any real repentance or change in the heart. Where as the Father's plan will do and accomplish this. Though not for the wicked! The elect are the only ones that will 'get it' and Repent in this age. Where as the lake of fire will do its work to get the rest to bow the knee and confess Jesus as Lord. I bet one of you can find that email or info from one of his teachings......I honestly do not know where to begin to look.

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