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Author Topic: Leviticus 12  (Read 11029 times)

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mavis92379

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Leviticus 12
« on: October 27, 2012, 06:07:10 PM »

Lev 12:2  for the people of Israel. For seven days after a woman gives birth to a son, she is ritually unclean, as she is during her monthly period.
Lev 12:3  On the eighth day, the child shall be circumcised.
Lev 12:4  Then it will be thirty-three more days until she is ritually clean from her loss of blood; she must not touch anything that is holy or enter the sacred Tent until the time of her purification is completed.
Lev 12:5  For fourteen days after a woman gives birth to a daughter, she is ritually unclean, as she is during her monthly period. Then it will be sixty-six more days until she is ritually clean from her loss of blood.
Lev 12:6  When the time of her purification is completed, whether for a son or daughter, she shall bring to the priest at the entrance of the Tent of the LORD's presence a one-year-old lamb for a burnt offering and a pigeon or a dove for a sin offering.

Does anyone understand why the women was unclean longer after giving birth a daughter ?
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Patric

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Re: Leviticus 12
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2012, 07:28:30 PM »

Well Obviously it was because women bleeding and a future of bleeding (daughter) means more days to be icky! (Sorry a bit of humor). As we know all of the Fathers rules (600+ of them) no matter how silly or odd they seemed were always for the health and benefit of the people, and or for reasons just for our flesh to fail! My 2 cents. Doing on earth as it is in heaven. I am really guessing but would say that the risk of infection would have been the issue for any reason for her to be away after giving birth. As to why double the time and double the uncleanliness for a daughter. Was the father saying that women were twice as much to clean? With Spiritual significance far and above the physical reasons? I read and re read and looked in my Thompson chain for foot notes and notes. Nothing of importance jumped out to me.

These are the old laws and purification rites of the Old Testament (as if you didn't know). They no longer apply since Christ came and sacrificed Himself on the Cross to purify us and forgive us off our sins.
The word 'unclean' is a wholly inaccurate translation; it refers to the word for menstruation, 'tuma,' which cannot be translated into English.

During menstruation, the shedding of the unfertilized egg is considered the loss of a soul, just as men are directed not to self-satisfy because the result is also loss of souls. In both cases, it is the loss of spiritual potential.

Experiencing such a loss puts one in a special spiritual state, because the soul and body are entwined. Like burial ceremonies, the ones involved are in that special spiritual state or 'tuma,'

In this case, it is telling the husband to avoid intercourse with the woman until she stops the post-partum bleeding. Why? 'Tuma' ... a particularly spiritual state after giving life...bringing another soul into the world.

Besides, childbirth stresses body and mind; it is in the family's best interests if the woman has a chance to recuperate from the ordeal.

Remember, these people were generally nomadic desert dwellers; there were no hot showers, no sterile environments. The Bible gave them rules in order to protect them, maintain their health and provide guidance and inspiration.


This part makes more sense....
Some also suggest the longer period of time in connection with the birth of a girl was because girls are usually smaller at birth, and this would allow more time for the mother’s focused care and attention on the child. As well, since sons were more prized, the longer time at home for a mother with a new born girl would force the family to bond more deeply, over a more extended period of time with the new born girl.

This too leads to the same vein of Old vs New testament view.
The New Testament teaches that any man is the head of every woman. So a baby girl is less of a result than a baby boy... Less of a gift from God or less of a gift to God and ceremonial cleaness or uncleanness under the Jewish law was related to advancement or simplicity in life's hierarchy... If your pregnancy was less fruitful then it may reflect on your actions that caused the pregnancy and your resulting status because of the pregnancy...To be less fruitful is to be closer to uncleanness just as to less good is closer to being a bit bad in God's hierarchal assessment of life...
 
The Entire reading.

Leviticus 12 - Cleansing After Childbirth

A. Ceremonial impurity after giving birth.

1. (1-4) When a male child is born.

Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, "Speak to the children of Israel, saying: 'If a woman has conceived, and borne a male child, then she shall be unclean seven days; as in the days of her customary impurity she shall be unclean. And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. She shall then continue in the blood of her purification thirty-three days. She shall not touch any hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary until the days of her purification are fulfilled.'"

a. If a woman has conceived, and borne a male child, then she shall be unclean seven days: The child was then circumcised on the eighth day, with the ceremonial uncleanness lasting an additional 33 days, for a total of 40 days of ceremonial impurity after giving birth to a male child.

b. She shall not touch any hallowed thing: The commanded time of ceremonial impurity should not be regarded as a negative attitude towards birth or child-bearing on God's part. God commands child bearing, in that man is commanded to be fruitful and multiply (Genesis 1:28), children are regarded as a gift from God (Psalm 127:3), and a woman with many kids is considered blessed (Psalm 128:3).

i. The key to understanding this ceremony is to understand the idea of original sin. As wonderful as a new baby is, God wanted it to be remembered that with every birth another sinner was brought into the world, and the woman was here symbolically responsible for bringing a new sinner into the world.

ii. Perhaps just as importantly, the time of ceremonial impurity gave the new mother a time of rest and seclusion that would she no doubt welcomed.


2. (5) When a female child is born.

But if she bears a female child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her customary impurity, and she shall continue in the blood of her purification sixty-six days.

a. If she bears a female child, then she shall be unclean two weeks: The time period for each phase was double of that when giving birth to a son. For a the birth of a daughter, a woman was unclean for 14 days followed by 66 days.


b. She shall continue in the blood of her purification sixty-six days: The longer period of ceremonial uncleanness for the birth of a daughter should not be understood as a penalty. Instead, it is linked to the idea stated in the previous verses - that the time of impurity is for the symbolic responsibility of bringing other sinners into the world. When giving birth to a female, a mother brings a sinner into the world who will bring still other sinners into the world.


i. Some also suggest the longer period of time in connection with the birth of a girl was because girls are usually smaller at birth, and this would allow more time for the mother’s focused care and attention on the child. As well, since sons were more prized, the longer time at home for a mother with a new born girl would force the family to bond more deeply, over a more extended period of time with the new born girl.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 08:01:55 PM by Patric »
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Patric

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Re: Leviticus 12
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2012, 09:27:29 PM »

Lev 12:2  for the people of Israel. For seven days after a woman gives birth to a son, she is ritually unclean, as she is during her monthly period.
Lev 12:3  On the eighth day, the child shall be circumcised.
Lev 12:4  Then it will be thirty-three more days until she is ritually clean from her loss of blood; she must not touch anything that is holy or enter the sacred Tent until the time of her purification is completed.
Lev 12:5  For fourteen days after a woman gives birth to a daughter, she is ritually unclean, as she is during her monthly period. Then it will be sixty-six more days until she is ritually clean from her loss of blood.
Lev 12:6  When the time of her purification is completed, whether for a son or daughter, she shall bring to the priest at the entrance of the Tent of the LORD's presence a one-year-old lamb for a burnt offering and a pigeon or a dove for a sin offering.

Does anyone understand why the women was unclean longer after giving birth a daughter ?


Obviously sons are cleaner than daughters.   8)

I have seen this feminist coffe cup with a picture of a little boy and a little girl, just toddlers, on the front.  The boy and girl have pulled forward their underpants and each are looking down at the private parts of the other.  Then the little girl says, "Oh, that's why you get paid more than me."   ;D ;D ;D

I wouldn't get hung up over Old Covenant ways of worship.  They were meant for spiritual children and have been physically abolished ever since the destuction of the Temple in 70 A.D.  Jesus said not to put new wine in old wineskins.

Hey you broke yours!  :o
that was the punch line I saw with that same interaction.
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Gina

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Re: Leviticus 12
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2012, 03:09:53 AM »

Ha!  Well I don't know why she would have been declared "unclean" but I can only imagine the Jew girl (to whom this law would have applied) would rather be declared unclean, if it meant she wouldn't have to have sex for a month (with her husband, who'd likely been sleeping with his mistress on the side) seeing how the poor girl had just given birth and no doubt ripped from stem to stern (I wonder what "stitches" were like back then...  AS IF!).  I'm sure the mere thought of having sex in the weeks after birth was about the farthest thing from her mind (unlike her husband's).  It probably went something like this:  Oh, Lord, if Thy will, please, please make a law that my husband may not touch me until I heal down there!  And God said, As you wish, my darling daughter, as you wish.

ha
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onelovedread

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Re: Leviticus 12
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2012, 12:55:20 AM »

Might this  not have to do with the importance and significance of blood?
I kind of get that from reading the scriptures, (you know like the one that says "the life is in the blood")?
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Gina

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Re: Leviticus 12
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2012, 03:07:43 AM »

I've read it has something to do with the Canaanites and how they adopted sexual intercourse into their worship services and God wasn't about to go for that.

In addition, I believe this idea that the woman was "unclean" helped keep women from being deified; after all it's a pretty amazing thing to have another human being growing and forming inside of you and feeling it kicking and now today with the technology we have, we can see and know exactly what's going on there.  That she'd brought another sinner into the world, though, would be untrue because children aren't born sinning, they're born potential sinners.  (They're born dying though and the child could have just as easily have died in the days and months of her purification and never sinned at all.)  Why the differences in the lengths of time for boys as opposed to girls, I'm at a total loss, but if I had to guess I think it was so that woman wouldn't be deified or raised to worship-worthy status by anyone, but especially men, because after all, it's a pretty big gift to be the one who is chosen by God to give birth to all those who will, in the end, bring praise, glory, honor and thanksgiving as sons and daughters to our Father in Heaven.

Clearly, that ritual ended with the birth of Jesus.
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Kat

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Re: Leviticus 12
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2012, 12:43:12 PM »


I did a little searching for the answer to this question and after seeing so much of it being an antiquated law, just custom and tradition because of ignorance back then. Well I finally came upon something that gave a hint that made sense to me.

So in our culture today we have much smaller size families, but in past times a large family was considered a blessing from God.

Psa 127:3  Behold, children are a heritage from the LORD, the fruit of the womb a reward.
v. 4  Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the children of one's youth.
v. 5  Blessed is the man who fills his quiver with them! He shall not be put to shame when he speaks with his enemies in the gate.

Now lets face it, a father is especially joyful with the birth of a son and quite actually the more sons the better, especially in the past (full quiver=many children). It seems to be a pride thing in some ways, to have a son to carry on the family name and follow in his father footsteps.

But what does the Lev. 12 Scripture have to do with this? Well we also have the situation that if a mother delivers a son to the father, he will usually be more satisfied. But if a female is delivered, well then the father may feel the need to try again for a son as soon as possible. So here is where this law in Lev. 12 can be very beneficial to the woman, because the husband cannot 'touch' her for twice as long after having a female baby as after having a son. So this actually gives the mother a little more time to recover after the birth of a female, before she may get pregnant again.

So instead of this being a law that show disdain for a female at birth, it is quite practical and more for the well being of the mother. Anyway it makes sense to me.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: October 29, 2012, 04:53:25 PM by Kat »
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Revilonivek

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Re: Leviticus 12
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2012, 11:49:35 AM »

It's a senstive subject.... These men are sexist.. Simple as that. I've seen people trying to soften the blow by saying its old wine skin... Girl babies are smaller... ive seen girl babies way bigger than male babies too...Women need more break after giving birth to a girl... So... No break for them if they deliver a boy? It's equal trauma to the body giving birth to both sexes. There's no difference. Body diesnt know the difference. they just want to push the baby out, regardless of size. Labor and childbirth hurts like hell no matter what sex you deliver. It's like their way of punishing their wife for not having a male infant or maybe it's  more to let the males get over their disappointment of not having a girl. That is why they have wives...
« Last Edit: October 30, 2012, 11:52:17 AM by Revilonivek »
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Kat

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Re: Leviticus 12
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2012, 03:04:27 PM »


Denise, you are mighty critical in your comment "these men are sexist.. Simple as that." And who are these "men"? Well we see it right there is the first verse of Lev 12 who spoke this.

Lev 12:1  And Jehovah spake unto Moses, saying,

Yes it was God that gave these laws for men to keep. Well I think you have made it clear in past posts, as well as here, that you do not agree with the way God does things, I would suggest that you weigh very carefully this line of thinking. You may not understand why God does what He does, but to stand up boldly and proclaim your objection to that is more than irresponsible to me, it is unbelief.

2Co 6:14  Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Gina

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Re: Leviticus 12
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2012, 04:10:13 PM »

hehe, Kat always has such a demure way of expressing her thoughts that it puts me to shame.  I love it.

Denise, you think you're insulting all the men or at the very least putting them in their place, when in reality half  if not most of them are sitting back with a big ol' grin going, "Dang!  Sure wish that young little Philly was my wife...  like to show her who's boss -- yeee haaaa!"

(sorry, couldn't resist)

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dave

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Re: Leviticus 12
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2012, 04:58:57 PM »


I did a little searching for the answer to this question and after seeing so much of it being an antiquated law, just custom and tradition because of ignorance back then. Well I finally came upon something that gave a hint that made sense to me.

So in our culture today we have much smaller size families, but in past times a large family was considered a blessing from God.

Psa 127:3  Behold, children are a heritage from the LORD, the fruit of the womb a reward.
v. 4  Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the children of one's youth.
v. 5  Blessed is the man who fills his quiver with them! He shall not be put to shame when he speaks with his enemies in the gate.

Now lets face it, a father is especially joyful with the birth of a son and quite actually the more sons the better, especially in the past (full quiver=many children). It seems to be a pride thing in some ways, to have a son to carry on the family name and follow in his father footsteps.

But what does the Lev. 12 Scripture have to do with this? Well we also have the situation that if a mother delivers a son to the father, he will usually be more satisfied. But if a female is delivered, well then the father may feel the need to try again for a son as soon as possible. So here is where this law in Lev. 12 can be very beneficial to the woman, because the husband cannot 'touch' her for twice as long after having a female baby as after having a son. So this actually gives the mother a little more time to recover after the birth of a female, before she may get pregnant again.

So instead of this being a law that show disdain for a female at birth, it is quite practical and more for the well being of the mother. Anyway it makes sense to me.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Excellent! :)
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longhorn

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Re: Leviticus 12
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2012, 10:14:30 PM »

Men sexist......dang right.......work hard at it too.
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Patric

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Re: Leviticus 12
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2012, 10:33:14 PM »

Lev 12:2  for the people of Israel. For seven days after a woman gives birth to a son, she is ritually unclean, as she is during her monthly period.
Lev 12:3  On the eighth day, the child shall be circumcised.
Lev 12:4  Then it will be thirty-three more days until she is ritually clean from her loss of blood; she must not touch anything that is holy or enter the sacred Tent until the time of her purification is completed.
Lev 12:5  For fourteen days after a woman gives birth to a daughter, she is ritually unclean, as she is during her monthly period. Then it will be sixty-six more days until she is ritually clean from her loss of blood.
Lev 12:6  When the time of her purification is completed, whether for a son or daughter, she shall bring to the priest at the entrance of the Tent of the LORD's presence a one-year-old lamb for a burnt offering and a pigeon or a dove for a sin offering.

Does anyone understand why the women was unclean longer after giving birth a daughter ?

Mavis I am wondering.....what your thoughts are and if the Spirit has given you insight into your question. Lots of info has been posted here....some with scriptures and most with human wisdom. I for one still do not have answers I am satisfied with after reading your question. I am always searching for truth and balance when I have questions.
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Foxx

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Re: Leviticus 12
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2012, 11:53:42 AM »

I'll do some research. My mother left the church sometime back and joined a messianic Jewish ministry. While not all things I agree with everything in her church I will admit there is definitely a reasonable and spiritual reason behind all the things God commanded. Typically these things were more symbolic to their culture or honoring God. I have learned many interesting factoids regarding the Jews and their customs and how they relate to us now or perhaps do not for that matter. I'll ask her about it. I will say this, there is always a deeper spiritual reason behind these things other than what we see on the outside. It was always a form of honoring him.
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the truth

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Re: Leviticus 12
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2012, 12:03:19 PM »

Hello, Its always interesting to me  how people men and women try to explain the Scripture away.Well some things believe it or not are literal as well.But I am not about to give countless Scripture on God order of his creation only for them to be spiritulaized away!Kat...As always your comments are very helpful and most importantly seasoned with salt!There is ONLY one way of doing things and that's God way!Wither you be a woman or a man if God took woman out of men that has to mean something.Like it or not....I keep waiting for Joyce Meyer...or Polly White... to come on here and teach us something in the name of women rights.Thank God Kat there are women...like yourself.... who doesn't see it as some sort of dilemma to just obey God and not make it a race issue in anyway.No,no one asked for my opinion but guess what I didn't ask you yours either.ITS ABOUT WHAT THE SCRIPTURE TEACH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Last Edit: October 31, 2012, 12:05:35 PM by the truth »
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Patric

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Re: Leviticus 12
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2012, 01:38:44 PM »

Hello, Its always interesting to me  how people men and women try to explain the Scripture away.Well some things believe it or not are literal as well.But I am not about to give countless Scripture on God order of his creation only for them to be spiritulaized away!Kat...As always your comments are very helpful and most importantly seasoned with salt!There is ONLY one way of doing things and that's God way!Wither you be a woman or a man if God took woman out of men that has to mean something.Like it or not....I keep waiting for Joyce Meyer...or Polly White... to come on here and teach us something in the name of women rights.Thank God Kat there are women...like yourself.... who doesn't see it as some sort of dilemma to just obey God and not make it a race issue in anyway.No,no one asked for my opinion but guess what I didn't ask you yours either.ITS ABOUT WHAT THE SCRIPTURE TEACH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL so what do the scriptures teach on the original question? Thus far all of us have speculated and some on topics that are a bit out of bounds upon the original question. There are things I could ask about the old testament like why no mixing of  fabrics that were expressly forbidden etc. .....A lot of the info is obscure and matters very little in any culture aside of the Elect of our Father. I have really appreciated all the comments and wisdom put in here......including your own. This question was very interesting to me.....for I often wonder about the child that dies in the womb. What life could have been etc.....and or why that happens and other gets 90+ years. Our father is in complete control and this alone gives me sanity when thinking such matters
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Revilonivek

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Re: Leviticus 12
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2012, 01:45:19 PM »

Kat, I was simply sharing my thoughts on the subject. Whatever God's reasons are, it is prob for a good reason but that reason is not known nor is concise and maybe in other words we will never know why. But from an angle  reading that scriptures, and using past experiences with women and their babies, it is clearly discriminative against females in general. We don't even know why but whatever it is , God must have a very good reason. I'll leave it at that.
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mavis92379

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Re: Leviticus 12
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2012, 01:45:43 PM »

Hi Patrick,

To answer your question. I think Foxx is correct that the answer to this question is obviously something spiritual. I try not to teach or make assumptions because peoples imiginations begin to run away from them when that happens. However its no assumption that the type of Cain and Abel,Jacob and Esau runs pretty consistently in the Old Testament so I currently feel because of the context of the seperation having to do with purity that the difference could have something to do with the two judgements man child being the elect, maid child being babylon.

1Pe 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Please be respectful to the rules of the forum.



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mavis92379

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Re: Leviticus 12
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2012, 01:59:01 PM »

Revilonivek,

The problem continues because you continue to judge a Christian principle from a secular perspective. I currently have no faith in you that you will step outside of your comfort zone and first try and understand this concept : 


Mat 23:11  But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
Mat 23:12  And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.


Wheb you read verses like wives submit to your husbands you must remember that everything else in the Bible still remains true while you contemplate what that means. Look at this verse :


Psa 119:160  The sum of thy word is truth; And every one of thy righteous ordinances endureth for ever.


It does not say some of thy word is true it says the sum of it is true ! So when a man reads this :


Eph 5:22  Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.


Does this suddenly become false for the man ? :


Php 2:3  Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.
Php 2:4  Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.


In order for us to interpret these verses the way you want them to sound we must than say that all other Christian principles suddenly become false.


Does the man suddenly forget these concepts ?


Php 2:5  Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6  Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:


Jesus thought it not robbery to be equal with God.


1Co 11:3  But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Php 2:7  but emptied himself, a servant's form did he possess, a mortal man becoming. In human form he chose to be,
Php 2:8  and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross.


Jesus in his full immortal divinity emptied himself of his immortality and divinity to take on the form of a mortal servant to be laughed at,rejected,beaten and hung on cross to die. In return :


Php 2:9  Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and gave unto him the name which is above every name;


Mat 23:11  But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 


Now its your belief that a women who believes this concept in Matt 23:11, and believes that Jesus voided himself of his divinity to become a man to die for her, and she should use that as an example for her own humility and obedience, is being discriminated against by her sexist husband who shares the same belief as her ? 
 
Deut 22:5 A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this.

I guess if we give it enough progression this also would be discrimination and sexist. All I really see here is different degrees. You draw your line and God draws his. In order to enter Gods kingdom a women must wear women's clothing and she must possess qualities that in the sight of God and men who value them are a great price.

1 Peter 3:4 But let them be those of the unseen man of the heart, the ever-shining ornament of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great price in the eyes of God.

This is not to say a women has no voice,opinion or equality. The only thing more unbecoming to me than to see a women lording authority over her husband with unnecessary contention is to see a husband mistreating his wife with unequal tyranny with no regard for his wife.
 
You will not get me on the defensive because you label things with words like discrimination. I have the ability to look at this from your perspective and understand how your world view led you to judge this. You cannot look at this from my perspective because than walls preconceived notions would begin to fall. 
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Revilonivek

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Re: Leviticus 12
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2012, 04:02:18 PM »

I was raised in a family that was once Pentecostal and dabbles in other denominations as well. They still do, trying to find the peace.  I am the first in my family that sees outside of something, many thanks to Ray and my father in law who is atheist. They forced me to see outside of a box that i have been inside of for many years. My mind is so wide open right now.I cannot allow a box to define me anymore. I want to be able to love everyone, male and female as equals. They are helpmates. Bible teaches Christ is over the man and the male is over the female....the hierarchy thing bothers me. I get no peace from that. No peace or unconditional love. Did he make the female weaker than the male so they must submit to the male? That is so wrong. Although I may disagree on this subject but it doesn't mean the end of the world either. I believe on many aspects that Ray teaches.
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