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Author Topic: Does God know everything?  (Read 3523 times)

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Ian

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Does God know everything?
« on: October 31, 2012, 08:34:08 PM »

Hello,
I am having troubles with the concept of omniscience. I read that it "wouldn't be fair (just) because then God knew that people would go to hell before He created them."

I know I'm not supposed to post links, but I would greatly appreciate it if I could just post the text from one. It can explain the problem more than I can, and perhaps you will understand why I am confused.

"It is assumed by many Christians that God knows everything.  A study of the Word of God will show that this assumption is without scriptural foundation.  The Bible makes many simple statements that limit God's knowledge.  There would be no sense to such passages if we take them figuratively.  There would be no object in God saying such things about Himself if they were untrue.  God finds out things concerning the free moral actions and decisions of people just as we do (Gen. 6:5-7; 11:5-7; 18:19,21; 22:12; 2 Chron. 16:9; Zech. 4:10; Job 12:22; 24:23; Ps. 7:9; 44:21; Psa. 139:1-6; Pro. 24:12; Jer. 17:10; Ezek. 11:5; Rom. 8:27; 1 Thes. 2:4). Several times God, Himself, said of certain events that they did not even come into His mind (Jer. 7:31; 19:5; 32:35; 44:21).  God did not know beforehand that men would become so wicked (Gen. 6:5-7); that they would plan Babel (Gen. 11:5-7); that Sodom would be so wicked (Gen. 18:21, 26, 28-32); that Abraham would actually proceed to offer up Isaac (Gen. 22:12).  God did not know whether it would take one or two or three signs to make Israel believe in Him (Ex. 4:1-12); or whether testing Israel would cause them to obey Him, or not (Dt. 8:2). He did not know that Israel would backslide as far as she did (Dt. 31:21; 32:19-29; Isa. 59:15-19).  Furthermore, He searches to find men whom He can bless (2 Chron. 16:9); He discovers deep things (Job 12:22); tries the hearts and reins of men so that He may know them (Psa. 7:9; 26:2; 44:21; 139:1-6, 23-24; Jer. 17:10; 1 Chron. 28:9; 29:17; 2 Chron. 32:31; Rom. 8:27; 1 Cor. 2:10; 1 Thes. 2:4; Rev. 2:23), proving or testing men for the same reason (Ex. 16:4; 20:20; Dt. 8:2, 16; 13:3; Jud. 2:22; 3:1,4; Psa. 17:3; 66:10; 81:7).
God does not personally take care of every detail of His vast business in His Creation, universe, and Kingdom. God sends out messengers (i.e. angels) throughout the Earth to find out for Him what He wants to know, the same as the head of any other business would be likely to do, so that plans may be made and actions taken accordingly. They report to Him constantly of all they are in charge of, as seen in Gen. 18:21-22; Dan. 10:13-21; 11:1; 12:1; Zech. 1:7-11; 6:1-8; Matt. 18:10-11; Heb. 1:14; 2:2; Rev. 1:1; 7:1-3; 8:2-13; 9:1; 14:6-20; 15:1-8; 16:1-21; 18:21; 22:6, 8-9, 16.  His agents help Him throughout the universe doing missions for him.  Angels are responsible to God for carrying out His will in infinite detail concerning the billions of planets, stars, suns, etc. and among all the free moral agents (i.e. human beings, angels, demons) in the world.  God does not personally do everything that is done in all acts and events, nor has He known, elected, chosen, or predestined all the acts and events from all eternity past.
"

"We have no statement in the entire Bible saying that God knows or even would like to know all acts and particular events of all vast creations of free moral agents from all eternity past; or that He has fixed decrees choosing and predestinating all the thoughts, acts, and deeds of free wills from all eternity past to all eternity future."

Just need some help with this. Going through sad time right now...
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Does God know everything?
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2012, 09:11:25 PM »

Yes, God knows everything, past present and future.  There is no such thing as 'free-will' or 'free moral agency' and God does not need to 'discover' things.  Indeed, we are the ones who do the learning and discovering.

More on the main page "Lake of Fire" series, part 15, in four parts.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2012, 09:37:32 PM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Joel

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Re: Does God know everything?
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2012, 12:15:01 AM »

I see a lot of scriptures in the text, but nothing in the scriptures that proves that God doesn't know everything.
I'm convinced that the Father planned every thing down to the very last detail before Jesus ever said "Let there be".

Joel
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Ricky

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Re: Does God know everything?
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2012, 12:19:52 AM »

It would be impossible for God not to know these things about His own creation. It would be impossible for Him to be God that way.  Ricky
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Your heart is God`s gift to you, what you make of it, shall be your gift to Him.

dave

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Re: Does God know everything?
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2012, 01:24:43 AM »

Yes
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moshe

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Re: Does God know everything?
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2012, 05:35:29 AM »

Hi Ian, I hope you are doing better, emotionally. I think you have a cool name.


No offence, but what a tricky little peace of crap you have just found.

On the first quote, the author is putting God in our same level, how considered. (also put attention on the next three quotes and you will find contradictions):

God finds out things concerning the free moral actions and decisions of people just as we do...

...God does not personally take care of every detail of His vast business in His Creation, universe, and Kingdom.

Angels are responsible to God for carrying out His will in infinite detail concerning the billions of planets, stars, suns, etc. and among all the free moral agents (i.e. human beings, angels, demons) in the world. 
by the way, hope you already know that there is no hell in the Scriptures.



I am sure this will helps

TWELVE GOD-GIVEN TRUTHS TO UNDERSTAND HIS WORD (truth number 10):


What is true is that God is not trying to save everyone now in this church age. But all of mankind are the offspring of God:

    "And has made of one blood all nations of men…though He is not far from every one of us [the ‘us’ including every sinning pagan Athenian—Ver. 21].

    For IN HIM we live, and move, and have our being… for we ARE ALSO His offspring" (Acts 17:26-28).

The most evil of people who have ever lived, did not live unto themselves, by themselves, independent of God, but rather, "in HIM they live, and move, and have their being."

For even the life of the criminal is sustained by God: or they would just fall apart and cease to exist:

    "And He [Jesus] is before all things, and by Him ALL THINGS CONSIST [Gk: ‘hold together’]" (Col. 1:17).

Why is it that God tells us that "all is of God," but as many read their Bibles, they do not believe that all they are reading is "ALL of God?"

God gave Joseph a dream that he would be in a position of great power and that even his brothers and his father and mother would be bowing down to him. His brothers especially hated him for what they considered a haughty attitude toward them. They hated him so, that they were going to kill him, but Reuben saved him and they rather sold him into slavery down to Egypt. In Egypt Joseph went through his 13 years of trial and testing. Later his brothers were forced to seek food from Joseph, and they feared for their lives. They thought that Joseph was as evil as they. Joseph, however, had compassion on them and made the following marvelous statement of revelation concerning the workings of God:

    "And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for am I in the place of God? But as for you, ye thought EVIL AGAINST ME, but God MEANT IT UNTO GOOD, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive" (Gen. 50:19-20).

Notice that God did not "change" what they planned, or "turn" the evil that they planned into something good. No, God "meant IT," it being the whole scenario from start to finish, for good. God didn’t change anything or turn anything, rather God planned it to happen just as it happened FROM THE BEGINNING. God has never ever made a mid-stream correction in His original plan. God always knows the end of everything in the beginning: "Declaring the END from the BEGINNING…" (Isa. 46:10). But "Who will believe our report?"

A few months ago while visiting in someone’s home, I was introduced to a Jehovah’s Witness minister. During a discussion around the kitchen table, something was said that prompted me to state that God knows all things, and He knows all things before they ever happen. To which the JW minister took great exception and gave an example of something that God did not know, and that this was clearly stated so in the Scriptures. When He quoted the Scripture I nearly fell out of my chair. Here is the Scripture he quoted to prove that God does not always know everything:

    "…Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden. And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?" (Gen. 3:8a-9).

He insisted for the rest of the evening that there are things that God doesn’t know, and if God were to ask a question to something He already knew, then the Scripture would be showing God to be a liar by asking. I asked him if the fact of God asking a question is proof that God does not know the answer to the question, and he said, "YES." I later asked him if Jesus was the only stupid person present when He asked whose image was on the coin? I asked him if every uneducated person present knew that it was Caesar’s image with the exception of Jesus? He replied: "That was different." Oh really?

How the name of God is blasphemed by such demeaning foolishness. Yet most professing Christians refuse to understand these simple truths of Scripture. They refuse to believe that all is of God. They rather think that all evil is of Satan. They refuse to believe that even Satan "is of GOD." God created Satan, God controls Satan, and God calls all the shots with Satan. Satan cannot move without God’s permission:

    "And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold he is in your hand; but save his life. So went Satan forth from the presence of the Lord…" Job 2:6-7).

If even Jesus Christ, the SON OF GOD, could not do ANYTHING of Himself without the Father, then why oh why do Christians believe that everyone else in the universe can do whatever they want independent of God? Jesus said:

    "I can of Mine Own Self DO NOTHING…" (John 5:30).

Jesus also said:

    "…For without Me YE CAN DO NOTHING…" (John 15:5).

So Jesus can do nothing of and by Himself; the Apostles could do nothing of and by themselves; we can of ourselves do nothing, but Satan and sinners can do whatever their fabled free wills want to do, is that correct? That is foolish and unscriptural blasphemy. Truly "ALL is of God."

What then of all the supposed contradictions in Scripture? Below are a few examples of what many would call contradictions in the Scriptures:

          THE RELATIVE:                                                                                    THE ABSOLUTE:

" ...seek, and ye shall find... " (Mat. 7:7)                                             "Not one is seeking out God" (Rom. 3:11)
 
"God changed His mind" (Ex. 32:14)                                  "God is not a man Who changes His mind" (I Sam. 15:29)

" ...CHOOSE you this day whom ye will serve." (Josh. 24:15)                     "Ye have NOT CHOSEN me,
                                                                                                                   but I have chosen you... " (Jn. 15:16)

" ...whosoever doeth not righteousness is NOT of God... "(I Jn. 3:10)                 "ALL is of God" (II Cor. 5:18)

"Zechariah was righteous before God" (Luke 1:5-6).                                      "There is none righteous" (Rom. 3:10)

"Come unto Me…" (Matt. 11:28)                                                                "None CAN come to Me…" (John 6:44 & 65)


To the carnal mind, the above Scriptures are contradictions, and therefore proof that the Word of God is not consistently true.

Even the greatest theologians in the world deny this truth that "All is of God," because they cannot distinguish the relative from man’s doings from the absolute which is God’s doing.

In the first example man is told to seek but is also told that no man seeks. Which is it? They are both true. No man does seek God except and until God brings about circumstances wherein he does seek God. But He only does seek God because "All is of God" who brings about the circumstances whereby someone who would not seek God, now does seek God.

In the second example we are told that God changes His mind [repents], but are also told that God is not a man who repents or changes His mind. The answers are all the same. Where it appears to many that God felt sorry for ever having created mankind, He is in reality doing only that which He had determined to do from the beginning. It is only from man’s perspective that God repented or changed His mind. God always knows the "end from the beginning," and therefore is never surprised or never thwarted or frustrated requiring a change in course or a change of plans.

A few years ago someone tried to trip me up with this verse:

    "They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spoke it neither came it into My mind" (Jer. 19:5).

Here, I was told, is absolute proof that God learns new things that He didn’t know before. Nonsense.

This is a simple problem of translating. The word translated "mind" in this verse is the Hebrew word leb, and it means the "heart with its feelings," not the mind. The King James very often confuses heart with mind and mind with soul, as if they were one and the same thing even though there are different words for each.

God’s plan and purpose for humanity consists of many, many things which are not after God’s own heart, but that are, nonetheless, absolutely essential for the completion of His plan:

    "Say unto them, As I live, says the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" (Ezek. 33:11).

This is God’s HEART speaking in this verse. But in the MIND of God, the death of the wicked was absolutely necessary, and a prophesied fact that could not be avoided:

    "For I will lay the land most desolate, and the pomp of her strength shall cease, and the mountains of Israel shall be desolate, that none shall pass through" (Ver. 28).

This is but another of countless examples in Scripture that show God’s mind and His heart. God takes no pleasure or delight in His heart over the horrible things that continually happen to humanity, but nonetheless, these things are absolutely essential to the fulfillment of the plan that God has devised in His mind.

It is absolute blasphemy to think or teach that God is the Creator of all that is, but then takes zero responsibility for all the evils of that creation—ALL is of God.


L.Ray Smith
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 05:50:24 AM by Moises G. »
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Extol

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Re: Does God know everything?
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2012, 11:27:34 AM »

I know I'm not supposed to post links, but I would greatly appreciate it if I could just post the text from one. It can explain the problem more than I can, and perhaps you will understand why I am confused.

Ian,
 Yes, that article does help us understand why you are confused! I have two suggestions that will help greatly with your confusion:

1) Read the articles on Bible-Truths.com.

2) Never go to that other website again.

Isaiah 46:10--Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.

Ephesians 1:11--In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Does God know everything?
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2012, 11:57:45 AM »

I've watched this video at least a dozen times:

http://bible-truths.com/DoesGodLearnHD.wmv

God knows everything about the entire creation.

But if a billion years from now God decides to create something new then He does not yet know everything about the new created thing because He has not yet thought of it.

Watch the video a few more times and you'll get it.
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Mbongiseni

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Re: Does God know everything?
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2012, 11:59:21 AM »

Hi
If its the free will god that does not know everything I will agree; but Yahweh knows all... all is of God...
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Patric

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Re: Does God know everything?
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2012, 01:41:33 PM »

He Knows the Bengals will never win a super bowl! He knows that we are going to rebel......he knows.....he knows all things......from end from the beginning! Sovereignty
This is hard to wrap our human mind around. This also helps keep my sanity in the middle of chaos in the flesh......
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Kat

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Re: Does God know everything?
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2012, 01:59:29 PM »


 
Quote
God does not personally do everything that is done in all acts and events, nor has He known, elected, chosen, or predestined all the acts and events from all eternity past."

Hi Ian, this is just one of the comments from your post.

Isa 46:10  Declaring the end from the beginning,
       And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
       Saying, "My counsel shall stand,
       And I will do all My pleasure,'

How is it possible for this to be true if God does not know everything? He has "declared the end," so for that to be as He has declared it everything must go according to His will to that exact end point. He knows "things that are not yet done."

Eph 1:10  as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
v. 11  In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

Anybody can take a Bible and say what they think it all means. But it takes the Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ indwelling to understand the spirit of the words.

1Co 2:10  But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
v. 11  For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
v. 12  Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
v. 13  These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy[4] Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
v. 14  But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Patric

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Re: Does God know everything?
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2012, 03:10:42 PM »

Amen Sister
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Does God know everything?
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2012, 05:56:12 PM »

Oh Ian... How can you let such foolishness cause you doubt?

Have you not read that God has declared the end from the beginning? Or that Christ knew of peter's denial before His death and even exactly how many times he would deny Him? Did you not know of God's prophesying of His Son to come? Did you not know how He knew of His own death? Have you not read that before the earth was, the Lamb had been slain from it's foundation long before adam and eve ever "sinned" therefor requiring the death of a Savior?

Did you not hear that all things were created by Him? That He controls all things? That He works all things after the council of His own will? That even the hairs on your head are numbered? That your days are numbered? That as the leapord can change his spots, so can you do good? If God controls all things Ian, how can you think He does not know all things also? Have you not heard how all the nations shall worship before the Lord? That all the people shall call upon Him with one consent? How every knee will bow and every tongue will confess? How pray tell, could the Lord not know all things when He knows even when the end shall come? "FOR THE LAST ENEMY THAT SHALL BE DESTROYED IS DEATH [...] and THEN comes THE END." Does this not concur with God declaring the END from the beginning? 

Have you even bothered to check the pieces of scriptures cited in the article? How about you pick a few and we discuss them? Perhaps this will help put your mind at ease. If you are not strong enough yet to have faith and assurance in the things L.Ray Smith and others have said here, that being the emphatic decelerations of God and His plan through His Word, then why do you search else where, where your mind can be troubled?

God bless,

Alex
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 06:01:13 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

musicman

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Re: Does God know everything?
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2012, 06:20:13 PM »

He Knows the Bengals will never win a super bowl!!

I disagree.  If god puts enough money on the Bengals, you bet they'll be winning the thing.  Even without Ocho Cinco.

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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Does God know everything?
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2012, 06:29:02 PM »

I decided to get this show on the road for you Ian, lets start with the first piece of scripture that is cited;

Genesis 6:5-7 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Apparently the author of your article is attempting to use this phrase where it "repented" the Lord that he had made man as an example of God not knowing that man would ultimately become evil in his ways and require God to judge him through a flood. I have two versus of scripture first of all that deal with the state in which man was created which will blow this idea right out of the water;

Romans 8:19-21 "For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly [/b][NOT OUT OF HIS OWN FREE WILL], but by reason of Him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God."

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and EXCEEDINGLY WEAK: who can know it?

God created man in a position in which his heart is weak, and subject to vanity. Man is incapable of doing good because of the state in which He was created in. This is God who did this, God is well aware of the effect that this will have on mankind's behavior. He isn't caught off guard by anything.

Now here is L.ray Smiths explanation of this passage in relation to samual, it should help. Notice clearly in this explanation that no where does it suggest that God somehow didn't plan ahead or know of the impending disaster to come and the eventual flood He would use to set things right.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6961.msg55392.html#msg55392

Quote
Dear Don: Don't misunderstand the meaning of "sorry" as it was used in archaic English. He was not "sorry" as in "I made a mistake that I now wish I hadn't made." That is nonsense. It is translated "grieved," and that is the proper word. Also the word for "repented" can mean to "pity." And these are proper emotional statements coming from God that do not insinuate that He didn't know what He was doing. God says he takes "no delight in the death of the wicked." But that doesn't mean He is sorry that He ever created humanity which is mostly wicked. And so when they death was to come, God felt pity and was grieved for the destruction that He brought upon them as a part of His original plan from the beginning. Hope this helps your understanding.
God be with you,
Ray

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,14368.msg127225.html#msg127225

Quote
If we take Gen. 5:6--"And it repented the Lord that He had made man...." and then read I Sam. 15:29--"And also the Strength
{the LORD] of Israel will not lie nor repent, for He is not a man that He should repent," we could easily conclude that this is
a contradiction of Scriptures.  It is not. Does God ever "repent?"  Yes, of course He does, the Bible says He does, but we
need to understand the different meanings of the word and the context in which it is used. By the way, you use the word "regret"
as what God felt, but regret is not a definition of "repent" or "grieved."
 
My American Heritage Dictionary has this as one of the definitions of  "repent"--To make a change for the better as a result
of remorse or contrition FOR ONE'S SINS.  Can we apply this definition of repent to God?  Does God SIN?
 
What is another definition of repent as it is used in the Hebrew Scriptures:  Dr. Strong--"repent, #5152, to sigh, to breathe
strongly , by implication to feel sorry, that is (in a favorable way) TO PITY...."  Now then, does this definition fit the feeling that
God had when He saw the incredible evil and corruption of mankind?  Yes it does. We might ask, what kind of a God would
He be if He did NOT feel "pity" for what He determined was His next course of action, namely to wipe them out with a flood.

 
 And as for I Sam. 15:29 which states that God is not a man that He should repent, the context here is that God is not fickle.
He is not like men who constantly change their mind and are often driven by the winds of human philosophy.  The same principle
applies with the statement where God says, "I am the LORD, I CHANGE NOT" (Malachi 3:6).

Next?  ;)

God bless,

Alex
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 06:33:29 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Patric

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Re: Does God know everything?
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2012, 01:41:25 AM »

He Knows the Bengals will never win a super bowl!!

I disagree.  If god puts enough money on the Bengals, you bet they'll be winning the thing.  Even without Ocho Cinco.

U mean because Ocho Stinko is gone! the team has a curse upon them from old law......they must suffer and suffer.....and their lake of fire punishment is long suffering and no sell outs....no playoff wins.....(I was at the last playoff game they won btw 41-7 in 1990 over the Houston Oilers LOL Boomer Esiason beat Warren Moon....) okay I am dating myself but that tells you how long the curse has been going on ......it got so bad I stopped rooting for them.....lost emotion.....and a waste of time....like Satan repenting? LOL
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Joel

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Re: Does God know everything?
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2012, 12:07:04 AM »

Does God know everything?

1st John 3:20
For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

Joel
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octoberose

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Re: Does God know everything?
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2012, 11:09:19 PM »

Hi Ian,
 I for one am happy that you posted. We don't learn if we don't ask our questions and take a chance on revealing our thoughts.
 The quote you used is from a school of belief that is called Open Theism. They just can't wrap their minds around God watching while humans suffer and not intervening. So, the answer for these people is that God is thwarted by Satan and his minions, and that gets God off the hook for all the evil in the world. Among many things that is wrong with this school of thinking, they really think God is just impotent. It sounds something like this, " Poor God, we're just out of control and out of His hands and He'd like to do something about us but He is stopped from the Free Will that He gave us."  What a bunch of baloney.  :-\
 If you stick around here for awhile and read Ray's writings, you may come to see that God truly will work all things out to His good pleasure. Our hardships and the wickedness in the world will be redeemed in His good time and for our good. God gave us something much better than Free Will. He will give us the knowledge of Good and Evil because we have walked the walk of Evil and we will be more than happy to give that up and walk in His ways on the Day when all are redeemed to Him.
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patmokgoko

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Re: Does God know everything?
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2012, 12:31:56 PM »

I agree that God knows everything,but will I be right to say that if God knows that I will tell lies next week then He will cause me to tell that lie so that He Himself does not become a liar.That is my understanding of Numbers 23:19.I agree that even before I came here on earth my life was complete in His mind, so He will cause me to do things exactly the way He wrote them.He wrote the play, I am just an actor or performer, He causes me,He directs my steps, He guides me.
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Does God know everything?
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2012, 05:48:18 PM »

A verse quoted from his contention that angels keep God informed about 'free moral agents' decisions.

Heb 1:14  Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits commissioned for service because of those who are about to be enjoying the allotment of salvation?

Heb 1:14  Are they not all helping spirits, who are sent out as servants to those whose heritage will be salvation?

"Shall be", "About to be", "Will be".  Every usage of the word μέλλω mellō I found through the KJV concordance had the strength of 'prophecy', something that would happen.

There is no escaping salvation for those/them.  Though we have to believe the rest of scripture to understand that God's work includes all His creation, each in his own turn.

Now, are those/them to recieve the heritage/allotment/be heirs of salvation by their own "free will"?  What does scripture say?  Over and over, it says He is the One doing the choosing, determining, 'gracing', working, etc.  Even our faith/expectation is given to us because it is His faith/expectation in the first place.  He gets everything He wants, and He wants all of humanity to be sons and daughters.  He is the Potter, we are the clay.  The clay may not understand the Potter, but it has no choice but to trust Him.

"Where is "free will" or "free moral agency" in that prophecy of Heb. 1:14?  Whatever these 'ministering spirits' do, they are doing it to/for those pre-destined/prophecied/willed/about to be the heirs of Salvation.  If He has said it, it is as good as done.  NO wiggle room. 

As Ray said many times, God is not running 'damage control' from Heaven.  It is HE who is working IN US both to will and to do His good pleasure.  His will be done.

   

 
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.
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