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Author Topic: All is out of God  (Read 10892 times)

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darren

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All is out of God
« on: November 01, 2012, 05:52:37 AM »

I recall Ray asking the question: Where did or how did God know evil?? Before there was anything before there was any creation of anykind How did God know evil? When there was just God and nothing else How did HE know evil?  Ray said WE know God is love many scriptures back this up. God is good We know this from scriptures. Where, how and why would God create evil?  WE know God is not evil.  I dont think Ray ever spoke on this any further.  Here is my question.  We know from scripture that God created Good and evil. WE also know from scripture that ALL IS OUT of God. All means All. This is gona sound bad,, here goes: Love goodness mercy and justice and evil came out of God. Still The question remaineds. Rays said you cant have light without dark, up without down, sweet without sour. Good without evil. God is alpha n omage, no ending no beginning. Has evil been a part of God since the beginning? Just as  Love and goodness Im sure I will be tared and feather for this. Just looking for ansewers.

Darren



Darren
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: All is out of God
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2012, 11:06:42 PM »

Darren,
God created evil, creates evil; remember?

God possess the KNOWLEDGE of evil and therefor can CREATE it. God himself is not evil, nor is there evil in his being. Knowing evil and being evil are two different things.

Before God created the world, He dealt with some form of evil that was without Him which produced this knowledge of evil that He now posseses.

Remember: evil itself is not sin. God uses evil for good ends and even uses the experience of it to humble us. I believe it is the story of joseph where we read; "You meant it unto evil but God meant it unto good to save many."

So has evil been apart of God since the beginning? Well, only in knowledge and wisdom but not in the sense that He Himself is evil. He just knew about it from the begiinning because He too, experienced it.
Hope this helps, if not, feel free to clarify :)
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 11:13:06 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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Ricky

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Re: All is out of God
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2012, 01:21:54 AM »

Someone said evil came out of God but created itself somewhere down the road.
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: All is out of God
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2012, 05:16:01 AM »

Someone said evil came out of God but created itself somewhere down the road.

Well that's definitely a new one for me Ricky! Can't say I've heard it before. How strange.
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Kat

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Re: All is out of God
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2012, 12:55:17 PM »


There is so many unknowns here... But I want to think it's possible that God is leading us to a degree of understanding about who the Father is... I mean wasn't there a time when there was only this Being? Before He created all the heavenly host and the physical beings and even His Son, what other being was there? So didn't this 'Being' (if that is really what you can call something like He is) have to come to a knowledge of things by creating the circumstances that gave Him the experience of all the different things He needed to know about? Where else would any of the experiences He had have come from, if He did not create them for Himself?

I want to think that there had to be so sort of process where He came to a knowledge/understanding of good and evil by He Himself creating different experiences for Himself to learn from. We don't know, nor could we probably even comprehend what all this process involved. But at some point He must have made a differentiation between what He considered good and of a beneficial nature and what is evil and a harmful nature. And this final process of learning to separate between the 2 could be the process that He went through with extremely difficult to realize and the process is reflected in the difficulty in the birthing process we experience. So He gained the wisdom of what He needed to apply for all the laws (natural and spiritual) to functions so things would operate in order and consistency for this creation to be as He desired.

Well I have a hard time expressing myself in this way, but I tend to try to look at things in a simplistic way and that's where my thoughts have lead me on this.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 10:14:32 PM by Kat »
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indianabob

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Re: All is out of God
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2012, 09:53:25 AM »

Good morning folks,
Shouldn't we first define what we mean by EVIL?
Is it a volitional act by one person toward another? Or is it what befalls a person?
When a person drives drunk and strikes another person and injures them it seems to be an evil event caused by sin or disobedience to the law of love. However, if the drunk driver misses the other person and no injury results, is it still evil?

In the instance of God creating evil, what do we mean?
Did God make circumstances such that people could make dangerous, selfish, disobedient choices and did God do that intentionally? If I willingly permit my son to play on dangerous equipment and "evil" befalls him and he suffers injury and pain, is that evil?

I think we need to define terms more carefully. What words in the original scripture were translated as "evil"?

Wondering, Indiana bob
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Kat

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Re: All is out of God
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2012, 12:20:55 PM »


Hi Bob, good idea.

Gen 3:22  Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil (Strong's H7451).

H7451  ra‛: bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra’ah; as adjective or noun.]


The best way I know how to explain what evil is, would be the opposite/absents of love. Only God has love in it's absolute/pure/perfect form, He does not only show/express love, His very nature/personality is love.

1John 4:8  He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

Paul did very well in expressing what love is.

1Cor 13:1  Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
2  And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3  And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned,[1] but have not love, it profits me nothing.
4  Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;
5  does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;
6  does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;
7  bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8  Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.
9  For we know in part and we prophesy in part.
10  But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
11  When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12  For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
13  And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

So we are born without knowledge, a clean slate, and this life is a process of experiencing/learning about good and evil, it is teaching us by comparison the difference between them. This knowledge of both good and evil is essential in the process of being shaped into His image.

Quote
Did God make circumstances such that people could make dangerous, selfish, disobedient choices and did God do that intentionally? If I willingly permit my son to play on dangerous equipment and "evil" befalls him and he suffers injury and pain, is that evil?

Evil comes from numerous sources and yes by ignorance would be one of them, but sometimes it's intended, and sometimes it's accidental or by mistake. But God created all the circumstances for evil to happen to us, because in this world we are learning/gaining a knowledge through experiences of evil and good, and that is the contrast we need. Quite a lot will end this life with a big accumulation of evil, but that's what the next age is for, to correct and purge people of their wrong characteristics, part of the process. God intends for us all to eventually be brought to the knowledge of truth, through the process we are now in. And the truth of what being in His image is all about, love.

1Tim 2:4  who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

John 15:13  Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.


mercy, peace and love
Kat

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the truth

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Re: All is out of God
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2012, 06:54:00 PM »

Hello,
I believe I remember Ray saying...Evil is only evil depending on whos hands its in.God uses Evil for a divine purpose to take carnality into the image of His Son.Men uses Evil to bring hurt to mankind.So if Evil didnt exists we would never be able to be conformed to the imgaine of His Son.Sorry I didnt have time to look for the reference in Rays teaching.Jerry.
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Samson

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Re: All is out of God
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2012, 07:13:05 PM »

Hello,
I believe I remember Ray saying...Evil is only evil depending on whos hands its in.God uses Evil for a divine purpose to take carnality into the image of His Son.Men uses Evil to bring hurt to mankind.So if Evil didnt exists we would never be able to be conformed to the imgaine of His Son.Sorry I didnt have time to look for the reference in Rays teaching.Jerry.


Good Answer, that's why I rarely use the the word wicked & evil interchangeably, although they often are. Evil has no moral bias or sense of right or wrong. If someone falls down the steps & hurts themselves, it's an Evil experience, but if someone deliberately pushes them down the steps, a wicked act was committed and an evil experience was attained by the receipient, so it seems that Evil has the broad meaning that includes wickedness caused by another party bringing the moral aspect of it.

Quote from a Thread from January 31, 2011, Topic-No Darkness In God, regarding Greek Words defined regarding Evil & Wicked. Read Below!

Orthodox Bible Scholars seem to Use Evil(Greek- Poneros & Kakos) somewhat interchangeably with Wickedness. That which results from Pain, sorrow, distress can be classified as Evil(Greek-Kakos), but not necessarily Greek-Poneros which is Evil resulting from the wicked act of others. The Hebrew Ra depends on the context in the sense of the purpose or motive behind the Evil Act.

To sum up the distinction between Evil and Wicked when considering God and Humans and the use thereof. When God uses Evil, it's not a wicked malicious act or motive, but has as it's ultimate purpose of Good. When Humans bring Evil upon someone, it's a wicked act and never has the intention of bringing about a good outcome. Unfortunately, in several cases, based on my word research of the Greek words used for Evil & Wicked(Kakos, Poneros & others) when mentioning someone committing an Evil Act, it would probably be better translated as wicked, but they use these words synonymously. Poneros signifies that which is worthless in a physical sense and wicked or evil in a moral sense. Kakos is more related to the results of Evil.


Check that thread out, it might help, Samson.
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Joel

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Re: All is out of God
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2012, 11:59:56 PM »

The way I see it, the fact that God uses evil, and man having fiery trials, and tribulations as a part of our journey here on earth during the process of learning about good, and evil.  There is a big difference in that, and mankind doing evil, carnal , lustfull deeds.
I knew a preacher a long time ago that taught that when there was only God, that God took the evil that was a part of himself, and made the devil to be the opposing force. That is the first, and only time I ever heard it explained that way.

Joel
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Kat

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Re: All is out of God
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2012, 01:51:13 AM »


Just a couple of things from Ray on this thing about evil.

http://bible-truths.com/email3.htm#evil -----------------------------------

There are billions and billions of people that God has not yet saved. Your questions is more basic than just why didn't God save those in the twin towers.

All of such things are examples of evil. God created evil for a purpose. So naturally He will not make evil inoperative at every turn in the road or there would have been no purpose in creating it in the first place.

Evil serves many noble purposes. One of which is a back drop for good. Good cannot be understood or certainly not appreciated without a backdrop of evil. Evil makes good appear even better and is certainly much more appreciated.

Evil is necessary for the production or development of good.  You cannot name one virtue that is not in some way produced by the resistance to some form of evil.

All knowledge is matter of contrast and relativity. One cannot know what light is unless he has been acquainted with darkness.  One has no conception of large unless he also knows of things that are small. Up is only up in relation to down. Life is the opposite of death, etc. To understand and fully appreciate all of these things, there are many necessary experiences to go through. God creates and puts us through these many things in the development of godly character.

All of these evils can be likened to the creation of a beautiful building. Ugly scaffolding is necessary in the construction of this building. It is ugly and serves no purpose other than in the actual construction of the building. When the building is completed, the scaffolding is torn down and discarded. It serves no further purpose. All evil will be discarded one day. And the last enemy, DEATH, will likewise be ABOLISHED FOR EVER (I Cor. 15:26) and God will "ALL in All"!!!

http://bible-truths.com/email2.htm#suffer ------------------------------------

God created EVIL, and God uses EVIL. But, He uses it for a GOOD AND HOLY AND RIGHTEOUS PURPOSE! "Evil" has nor moral bias. Evil is only a SIN when men use evil against other men. When God uses it, it is NO sin.
v
God Himself possesses a knowledge of good and evil. God wants SONS. Sons posses the attributes of their Father. It was necessary for us to learn of good and evil. They are both in the same fruit tree, as there can be no knowledge of good without a knowledge of evil. All of life's knowledge is a contrast. We cannot appreciate health unless we see sickness, we cannot appreciate food until we get hungry. When cannot know what light is unless we experience darkness. 
v
God has designed men to be spiritually WEAK. Men go against God's WILL--God planned for men to go against His will--it was His original INTENTION. But...BUT, absolutely NO ONE HAS EVER OR EVER WILL, GO AGAINST HIS INTENTION! Romans 9:19 should read, "Why, then, is He still blaming? for who has withstood HIS INTENTION?" And the answer is, "absolutely NO ONE"!

God be with you,
Ray

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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: All is out of God
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2012, 12:42:17 PM »


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.0.html

Where is God?  EVERYWHERE!

If you're in a life raft, out in the middle of the ocean, you don’t have to cry out to God, to help you. God can see you, in the big ocean. He’s there, whether He’ll help, that’s a different story. But He is there.

.......... Everything is out of God.
 
So there was a time, before everything was out of God, when there was just God. That is a hard concept... take away people, take away the earth, the stars, the planets, the solar system, the galaxies, and the whole universe, take it all away and what do you have? If you take away the creation, what is left? Would it be dark or light? You have to pay attention to the words. Take away the creation of the universe and you’re not left with blackness of outer space. I’m just going to read it to you.

Isa 45:5  I am Jehovah, and there is none else; besides me there is no God. I will gird thee, though thou hast not known me;
v. 6  that they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none besides me: I am Jehovah, and there is none else.
v. 7  I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.

So if we do away with the created universe, what do you have? You have God and light. He created the darkness. But I had someone say to me, cold is the absence of heat, and darkness is the absence of light, it’s not something, it’s the absence of something. I say, I know that sounds very scientific, but God’s thoughts are not your thoughts, neither His ways our ways, and God created darkness. Except that there be, this envelope of darkness that shrouds us from God, it would be light all the time, everywhere. There is no darkness with God. Only in His creation did He create darkness.
 
So don’t think before God created the universe, He was drifting around in outer space, with nothing to sit on, nowhere to go and nothing to do. It doesn’t even say that there was nothing. It doesn’t say in the beginning there was nothing and God made something. It says in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, but God doesn’t live in things that are created. He doesn’t need that for habitation, because He existed before He created those things. Now He resides in heaven, the heavens being (among other things) us. Our spirituality is of heaven and He dwells in man. Don’t you know your body is a holy temple of God. There are multiple heavens.


I like how Ray expresses that " an envelope of darkness shrouds US ....."

Scriptures also mention waking up. As we sleep, we are in a kind of darkness that spell binds us in a dream like state of thinking wrongly about God. This is as looking through a glass darkly, dreaming up ideas that are far from the mind of God! ~ :)

Arc
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: All is out of God
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2012, 04:30:40 PM »

Thanks for pulling that up, Deb.  Man, how I needed to hear that today. 
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darren

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Re: All is out of God
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2012, 02:39:05 AM »

 Lilitalienboi16 you said  "God created the world, He dealt with some form of evil that was without Him which produced this knowledge of evil that He now posseses". OK He dealt with some form of evil??? Then  you say this " He just knew about it from the begiinning because He too, experienced it" Really?? Some form of evil that God Himself experienced and dealt with from the beginning. Did you understand my post? All is out of God. ALL. Sorry do you have scripture to back your statements up?? Who or what evil did God come in contact with in order to give Him the knowledge of evil before God Himself created anything. When there was nothing but God before any creation?? Ray asked this same question in one of his audio's Where did God come up with the concept of evil? Where did God get the knowledge of evil? Ray said before God created the universe when there was ONLY God Himself. How did God know evil?? There was nothing before God. All is out of God. I was seeing if I might have missed what Ray had said about this question. Did I clarify??

Darren
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: All is out of God
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2012, 04:36:47 AM »

Lilitalienboi16 you said  "God created the world, He dealt with some form of evil that was without Him which produced this knowledge of evil that He now posseses". OK He dealt with some form of evil??? Then  you say this " He just knew about it from the begiinning because He too, experienced it" Really?? Some form of evil that God Himself experienced and dealt with from the beginning. Did you understand my post? All is out of God. ALL. Sorry do you have scripture to back your statements up?? Who or what evil did God come in contact with in order to give Him the knowledge of evil before God Himself created anything. When there was nothing but God before any creation?? Ray asked this same question in one of his audio's Where did God come up with the concept of evil? Where did God get the knowledge of evil? Ray said before God created the universe when there was ONLY God Himself. How did God know evil?? There was nothing before God. All is out of God. I was seeing if I might have missed what Ray had said about this question. Did I clarify??

Darren

It seems you did not understand my post at all.

Let's try this again.

Here is what ray says; http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html

Quote

Now He creates man and He said, “now he can become like one of Us, to know…” and of course you can say good, because God is good. But evil? How did God know evil? What in the universe... well there wasn’t a universe, well what in God then was there that was evil? How did He know evil?  He created evil, but where did it come from?  Where did the idea come from? When it was only God, who is righteous and good and Holy and just and all of that, where was the evil? God was evil? 

What I’m saying is He knew evil, how did He know evil? Now man understands evil. They are going to be banished from the garden and they die. This is an evil that has come upon them, because they disobeyed. Which is another evil you see. But God said “We understand good and evil,”( Gen. 3: 22)  Before there was a creation, God understood evil. From where? From what?   

His reply He’s just thinking ahead that He is going to create something called evil? But where would that concept come from? If He’s thinking ahead, He’s going to create a Son, who was going to live righteous and good. But that comes from Him, that is what He is. God is love, God is spirit, He’s invisible, this is what He is. God is not evil. How did He know evil? I have some ideas about that. What I’m saying is you can all see that it was there. We’re going to go a little deeper then these other people go.

God is all wise, all knowing, all powerful and He does not change. Did He ever? That’s what He is now, but did He have to go through something to become what He is. Hmm, wow maybe there is more glory in that then you could ever conceive of. Well why doesn’t He change? ’What are you trying to say Ray, are you trying to insinuate that He’s learning?’ No, He knows it all. When you reach perfection, you don’t change. Once you reach total perfection, you do not change! Jesus Christ is the express, very absolute, image of God. Guess what? He doesn’t change. You don’t change when you are perfect. Total perfection! Well you think about that.

God is a certain way. I don’t know if He was always that way. I just know He always will be that way now. I don’t know what God went through, and some people will call me a heretic for that, but I really don’t care, it’s just something I feel in my spirit. That God knows evil and good, first hand, some how. His Son was not the first to suffer evil, I believe that happened, some how. Now you will say, how? Where? Well He had a knowledge of good and evil before there was a creation, He had that. Where did He get it? He got it from somewhere.

Two things;

1. I don't appreciate your manner of speaking nor the vibe it gives off. You come off as quiet rude and condescending. Do I have a scripture? Do you think I responded to your question to purposely deceive you and lie to you?

2. I bolded and underlined extremely important statements made by ray which imply certain things about God before our creation which I tried to share with you in my first reply that you wanted nothing of so I'll leave you to read and re-read what ray is saying and maybe it will click.

Lastly... Which scriptures from what I said would you like? The one about God creating evil? The ones about God not being evil? The one's where God uses the evil man does for good?

In Christ,

Alex
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Patric

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Re: All is out of God
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2012, 07:55:59 PM »

I would have been more comfortable had there been a tree of good...and a tree of evil.....LOL yet they are in the same tree! All is of the Father.....good and evil. We must go through the flesh to be made in his image.

I once sat with 3 men and studied the bible some 25 years ago when I knew nothing nor had our Father shown me many truths of his word. I asked them if God really wanted us to be with him in Heaven, then why does he not just put us there? I went on and on to defend my words and my own sin by saying that what is the purpose of life if we are going to have to do it all and or make it? LOL Had I known then what I know now.....I was right!!!! Yet I was also wrong. Christ did it for us.

 No one loves God with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength. The burden of not trying or living like I could was such a salvation issue for me. If Christ did it all.....why do I have to ......fill in the blank....etc etc. If I could do it without him, then it was me loving God with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength. I now see when he said "it is finished." What this means......spiritually to my heart, soul, mind, and strength! Yes all is of the Father
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onelovedread

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Re: All is out of God
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2012, 09:42:09 AM »

Many of Ray's teaching have blown away the falsehoods of Christendom and taught me of God's ways. But none have been more life changing than "All is out of God". For instance, I never before considered that God created evil for a purpose.
As Kat wrote:
"God has designed men to be spiritually WEAK. Men go against God's WILL--God planned for men to go against His will--it was His original INTENTION. But...BUT, absolutely NO ONE HAS EVER OR EVER WILL, GO AGAINST HIS INTENTION! Romans 9:19 should read, "Why, then, is He still blaming? for who has withstood HIS INTENTION?" And the answer is, "absolutely NO ONE"!

God be with you,
Ray."
I will always be grateful for L. Ray Smith and thankful to God for leading me to his website and to this forum, both of which continue to open my spiritual eyes. Thanks, guys!

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darren

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Re: All is out of God
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2012, 06:20:21 AM »

Ya, your probable right that I misunderstood your post. Wouldn't be the first time most likely wont be the last. Sorry if I came off rude didn't mean to come off like that.  The last part of your post is what I was looking for scripture.

" So has evil been apart of God since the beginning? Well, only in knowledge and wisdom but not in the sense that He Himself is evil. He just knew about it from the begiinning because He too, experienced it.
Hope this helps, if not, feel free to clarify

Im not being rude. Just looking for clarification and the word of God.
Thanks,
Darren
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Gina

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Re: All is out of God
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2012, 01:48:48 AM »

I recall Ray asking the question: Where did or how did God know evil?? Before there was anything before there was any creation of anykind How did God know evil? When there was just God and nothing else How did HE know evil?  Ray said WE know God is love many scriptures back this up. God is good We know this from scriptures. Where, how and why would God create evil?  WE know God is not evil.  I dont think Ray ever spoke on this any further.  Here is my question.  We know from scripture that God created Good and evil. WE also know from scripture that ALL IS OUT of God. All means All. This is gona sound bad,, here goes: Love goodness mercy and justice and evil came out of God. Still The question remaineds. Rays said you cant have light without dark, up without down, sweet without sour. Good without evil. God is alpha n omage, no ending no beginning. Has evil been a part of God since the beginning? Just as  Love and goodness Im sure I will be tared and feather for this. Just looking for ansewers.

Darren

Hey Darren,

I hope all is well with you.   

I think yours is a really good question.  "I have all the answers!" hehe  No, not really, but I think I might have been given the answer.  Please tell me what you think. 

First, Everyone:  I have prayed and asked God for wisdom, because I know that what I'm about to say is not something that Ray just came right out stated -- these are just my thoughts as pieced together from the things Ray talked about in his Does God Learn study.   If anything I say comes across as teaching, Mods, please feel free to delete my post.  You don't have to explain why you deleted it or apologize; I'm confident you have good judgment.  My sincere hope is that it will help Darren and others, and will at least lead to settling the question (Since God is good, how could evil have ever come out from Him??!.  I don't want any praise or glory if what I'm about to say is correct.  But I certainly don't want to confuse anyone either because God is not the author of confusion.  Here I go...  :))


Darren, I'm going to highlight portions of Ray's study on Where Did God Get Knowledge [and I'm assuming the knowledge of Good and Evil, not just good].  It's really simple, I believe, to figure out where God got this knowledge of evil if you just follow the highlighted portions below. 

Note:  This study was done in 2008, a year after Ray's study that Alex quoted.  I'm not a very good communicator (You're stating the obvious, Gina!  ~The peanut gallery~  lol) and sometimes I have trouble getting my thoughts across clearly, so if you, or Kat or Alex, or Deb/Arc or DaveinTenn, and anyone else, would be so kind as to help me gather / collect my thoughts, I'd be very appreciative.

Quote
                           Where Did God Get Knowledge ?

I asked the question; Did God have a master plan when He created the universe? Did He have something in mind? Where did that come from? It must have been something He always had in mind. 

Did God always have this plan? You see we get this thing that God has always been everything that He is. God says He doesn’t change. It says, He says He has all knowledge. Oh yea, well where did He get it?  I don’t doubt that God has all knowledge, but where did He get it? ‘Well He always had it.’ Do you have chapter and verse on that? 

[Comment: Is, was and always will be] Jesus said that. But He was a created being. He came out from the Father. But now that He did, “He is,” He’s alive today, resurrected from the dead. “He was,” He was the one who created everything, He was the one that died for the sins of man and “He always will be.” That’s true. But even if you were to say that of the Father, that He is and was and always will be, there is still no statement that He always was what He is.

Does God learn? You say, ‘Ray it is sacrilege to talk like that.’ Well I’m sorry, but I think about this and I’ve talked to God about stuff like this and I don’t believe that I’m sacrilege at all. I honor God, I worship God. 

Coming in here to learn this stuff this is worship. Waving your hands and falling over backwards and foaming at the mouth, that’s not worship. Learning the truths of God and saying, ‘I believe that and I can see that, this is wise, it is wisdom and this will help me be the kind of person that God wants.’ That is worship. You believe and you obey God, that’s worship.
 

                                    Does God Learn ?

I’ve ask these questions all my life. I didn’t have an answer for them. But I ask the questions. Does God learn?  I know He knows everything, but does He know everything because He learned it all? 

Well I though, there’s a lot of stuff I’m not going to know. But then I also believed that there is so much more in the Bible than we have ever seen. I mean it’s in there  There is so much in there, you just have to pay attention to the words.

You know I look at Scripture and I read them over 30... 50... 180 times and then sometimes something jumps out at me.  I’m relentless, I’m like a bulldog and I beg God.  I say, ’God I don’t know this, show me. Show me! I know it’s in there, show me!’ 

Anyway, is there any indication in the Bible that God, before the creation, before there was a universe or even a Jesus Christ, is there any indication that God either learned something or accomplished something that didn’t exist with Him, prior to that? Some might say, ‘Ray I think you are on dangerous ground. I think you are talking heresy and this verges on sacrilegion.’ 

I ask the question... I had a debate with Jeff Priddy, I friend of mine, has some screwy ideas, but he’s a nice guy. I was talking about emotions and he said, ‘Ray God does not have emotions.’ I said, well what is love and how come God is love, if God does not have emotion. He said, ‘No, that’s just for human terms and He is so way above and beyond that and everything else.’ 

But then over time I got to thinking about that and I said, wait a minute in Galatians 5 we are given a list of the fruits of God Spirit. One of them in the King James is longsuffering.  Okay longsuffering, what does that mean? Patience. What is that made up of? Is it made up as an archaic English term? 

Longsuffering - to suffer long. One of the fruits of God Spirit is to suffer long. How can it be a fruit of God’s Spirit if He doesn’t even possess it Himself? 

I told somebody that I was going to ask a question at this conference; Did God ever do an honest days work in His life? I mean a really hard day’s work. Did He? Well you would say, ‘well He created the universe, that was a little work.’ No, all these Christians theologies say He just spoke it, let there be stars… let there be suns and moons… let there be an earth… let there this and that… just let there be... let it be... let it be... and there you are.  Wow, I’m tried I think I’ll rest a day.

Did God ever do an honest hard days work in His life? You say, ‘Ray it doesn’t apply, you can’t apply what we do to what He does.’ How can you say it doesn’t apply? Jesus Christ worked and He suffered, He had long suffering and He had patience and He was the very image of His Father! The expressed stamped image of His Father! And we are to be in the image of Jesus Christ (Rom. 08). In the very image of God and the very image of Jesus Christ, our elder brother.

So how could Jesus have all this love and all this patience and all this mercy and He said everything He got came from His Father? Every thought He thought, every word He spoke, every deed He done came from His Father. How can you say the Father doesn’t have patience? 

Patience is doing without something you want, but you can’t have it now. You have to exercise patience. You might even have to have longsuffering, you might have to suffer long. That is a fruit of God’s Spirit.

I could never believe in my heart of hearts that God would expect of us, things that He would not move His little finger to do Himself.

Jesus Christ berated the Pharisees. He said you load these heavy heavy burdens on people, very difficult for them to do what you tell them they need to do to be holy and righteous and good. Yet you would not move them with one of your fingers.

Mat 23:4  For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Is He accusing the Pharisees of something His own Father is guilty of? Are you following me? Is Jesus Christ condemning and berating the Pharisees for something His own Father is guilty of… that He lays heavy burdens on us and He wouldn’t lift them with one of His fingers, but we have to? We have to suffer through sixty or eighty years of sometimes horrible misery and disease and heartache and everything.   What does God know about that? Nothing? I don’t think so. I don’t buy that nonsense anymore. I think that God has gone through a lot for us.


                                   The Principal Thing

I said that Onkelos translated Genesis 1:1 not “In the beginning,” but “In wisdom.”  “In wisdom God created the heaven and the earth.” I couldn’t understand that, so I looked it up in Strong’s and I got all the words for wisdom and I looked them up and it didn’t make sense. But then I did find Scriptures in the Psalms and so on, that said “In wisdom God created the heaven and the earth.” It’s not Genesis 1:1, but it’s the same, “In wisdom God created the heavens and the earth and there are several of them. But is that the way Genesis 1:1 could be translated? Well apparently so. When you look and Strong’s definition there is one word at the end of the definition.

“In the beginning” H7225  rê'shîyth
The first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically a firstfruit): - beginning, chief (-est), first (-fruits, part, time), principal thing.

He says firstfruit, beginning and then at the end it says the “principal thing.” The principal thing, what is that? The principal thing…  and Onkelos translates “In wisdom God created the heavens and the earth.” I just couldn’t get it and finally it hit me. Some place the Bible must tell us what the “principal thing” is.

Proverbs 4:7  Wisdom is the principal thing;


                                         WISDOM

There it is. “Wisdom is the principal thing.” Now go over to chapter 8, it talks about wisdom personified.

Pro 8:1  Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?

v. 6  Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.

v. 12  I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.
v. 13  The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogance, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
v. 14  Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.
v. 15  By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.
v. 16  By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.
v. 17  I (wisdom) love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
v. 18  Riches and honor are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.
v. 19  My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.
v. 20  I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:

v. 22  The LORD possessed me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old.
v. 23  I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever (before) the earth was.

Wisdom is speaking in the first person, “I” wisdom. “I” was with the Lord in the beginning before there ever was any works. “I” was set up… ever the earth was.” Before there was an earth.

Pro 8:24  When there was no depths, I was brought forth, when there were no fountains abounding with waters, 
v. 25  Before mountains were settled, Before the hills was, I brought forth
v. 26  While as yet He had not made the earth, or the fields or the highest parts of the dusts of the world.
v. 27  When He prepared the heavens I was there, when He set a compass upon the face of the earth,
v. 28   When He established the clouds above: when He strengthened the fountains of the deep:

Who was there with God? [Wisdom]  Wisdom! Before anything was made, who was there with God? [Wisdom] Wisdom! Where did it come from? It took a little digging to get this out. 


Verse 24 “When there was no depths, I was brought forth.” Now before I get into that, understand that terms that applied to us are applied to God. The Bible talks about men of power… does God have power? [Yes] Is the power that God possesses greater or lesser than the power men possesses? [Greater] Much greater, considerably greater, infinitesimally more greater. 

Does God have mercy? [Yes] Does He have more mercy than men? [Yes]

Does God have love? [Yes] Same love that we have, right, same amount? [No] You cannot compare the love that God has with the love that we have. Yes we have love and we kind of know what it means. But it can not be compared with the love that God has.

Therefore whatever words are applied to us, when they are applied to Him it’s infinitesimally more greater and more profound. Agreed? [Yes] Okay. 

The word there “brought forth” is H2342 chûl (khool, kheel) A primitive root; properly to twist or to dance (in some contexts, but there is only one application of it), to writhe in pain… 

Not just to hurt…  you know ‘writhing’ in pain, when you can’t even think straight. 

- bear, bring forth, calve, great, grieve, grievous, be in pain, sore, sorrow, travail (with pain).

Those are powerful words aren’t they. If you went through all that you would think you were in childbirth. Guess what this word means here, “I was brought forth”? Travailed - birthed. Can this mean what it says? 

Before God could create us and the universe and creatures in His own likeness, He had to know how to do it. How hard was that? ‘Oh but nothing is too hard for God.’ There is nothing 'too hard' for God. Too hard, that means impossible, but how close to that does it come? Are things very very hard for God at times? Did God ever do a honest days work? Did God ever suffer? Was God ever long suffering? Did He have to have patience? 

He could not build this universe until He possessed the wisdom to do it before the creation came, the master plan and the wisdom to do it. How did He get that wisdom? He birthed it! Under the travail and pain and agony, that He passed on to women to experience a minute little insignificant part of what it is like to bring about children that are going to be in the image of God. 

He travailed with pain and agony, until wisdom was birthed out of Him, so that He could now build the universe. It says so! Well you can say, ‘I don’t see it.’ I don’t care, this wisdom was with Him before the heavens and the earth, it was with Him. But where did it come from? He birthed it with great pain, travail and sorrow. It was difficult for God! So don’t think that God hasn’t done anything for us. 

God has never suffered? God has never had to work hard? God has never had to go long periods of time and not get what it is He wanted? Don’t think that way anymore. You have a Father in heaven that can identify with everything you are.


continuing...

So, then I thought of how Ray quotes, God has given to mankind an experience of evil to humble him thereby?  Well, to me, evil didn't always exist with God originally.  But He had to learn of it somehow, so when did He learn.  To me, He learned it as it came out of an experience God had when He birthed/Travailed wisdom and SUFFERED LONG in deep, agonizing, writhing miserable pain to bring forth wisdom.  The experience God went through when He birthed / travailed in agonizing pain wisdom, before the earth,etc., ever was.   God experienced evil, and that's how He knows evil, learned of evil, understands that evil (which has no moral bias) can serve a good purpose. 

The pain that God went through to bring forth wisdom is the same pain [experience of evil] that he gave to Eve back in the day.   And from a woman's perspective, that my friend is an experience of evil, almost as bad or worse, than passing a kidney stone.  I'm telling you the God's honest truth.  (Back labor is what I had and it felt like all my bones in my body were being pushed together at every joint, and so hard, that they would break or come through my skin--it's something I can't describe except it's this dull, constant, aching deep, deep pain in your bones as your baby is trying to make its way through the birth canal and it all starts at the pelvic bones.  It's the kind of pain that makes you start to just shake, I imagine much like what Ray was going through with his arm that he mentioned in this study.  the women here who have had back labor, they know what I'm talking about. lol]  That's experience of evil.  It's not wicked, or what have you, but it is definitely an experience of long suffering that makes a woman wonder why she'd ever get pregnant again after the first go round. seriously.  But many women get past that pain / experience and go on to have more children, because God put in place a thing that causes a woman to not remember all that pain, and it happens almost immediately after birth.  It's the wildest thing!]

Further, we tell our kids, you want a car?  Good.  You'll have to get a job and save up for the down payment yourself -- you'll appreciate that car more and take better care of it.  You do that because you know that that experience of "evil" will serve them for years to come.

Well, that's all I got.  I hope that made some sense to someone.  It makes loads of sense to me, but you know me! lol 

God Bless you Darren, my friend.  I hope you and yours are well.  Think of you every day.

Gina

p.s.  I love you all.  I've been lurking for a while and you all have so many good things to say and I love the way that you all express yourselves so well and with so much class.  I'm so glad that I have this forum and you guys to retreat to.  And with that, I'm going back to lurking.

p.p.s.  Darren, I just wanted to say too that evil has boundaries.  "Thus far shall you come and no further."  (That's God talking to raging waves of the sea back in Job I think).  Like, when we die we don't keep experiencing pain and agony, because that pain and agony ends sooner or later, but thank God it ends.  All evil will eventually have to come to an end once it has served the purpose for which it was created and that purpose always ends in something good.  Very good.  God said at the end of each creation eon/day (whatever you want to call it), ... "...and it was very good."   
« Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 04:19:04 AM by Gina »
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darren

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Re: All is out of God
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2012, 05:07:05 AM »

Thanks to all who have responded to my post. Thanks for your insight and comments.
Gina I have listen to read many, many times over the yrs Rays writings and audios. Where did God get His wisdom. Was God always perfect. How did God know evil. Plus many many more. I was just wondering if I might have missed something on these subjects Ray might have spoken. I believe there is no new  information on this.
Once again, Thanks to those who took time out of bizz.day to respond to my little post.
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