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Author Topic: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?  (Read 13989 times)

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Duane

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Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
« on: November 12, 2012, 11:01:23 PM »

Much of my time and writing is taken up on other Christian web-sites expounding truths that I have learned from this web-site,  Ray and the "B-T" administrators.  I then, direct them to this site/home page.

In doing so, I was teaching about the fact that Jesus is the "only begotten" created "first fruit" of God and that God doesn't create but through Jesus, who carries out His Father's will.       

A question was asked of me that I need your help in answering/directing me to the answer: 
Question: As Jesus created everything via the direction of His Father, and God the Father created nothing of/by Himself.
How did God the Father create/birth Jesus?  Is it that God COULD create things but CHOOSES NOT TO but rather gives honor to Jesus by instructing Him to created it and get praised for it; or God, "Who can do anything", but being a SPIRIT can't self-create Jesus.  Who helped Him?  (sounds silly as no one else was around (?). 

I know Ray addressed this somewhere but I can't find it. 
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John from Kentucky

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Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2012, 11:52:53 PM »

Much of my time and writing is taken up on other Christian web-sites expounding truths that I have learned from this web-site,  Ray and the "B-T" administrators.  I then, direct them to this site/home page.

In doing so, I was teaching about the fact that Jesus is the "only begotten" created "first fruit" of God and that God doesn't create but through Jesus, who carries out His Father's will.       

A question was asked of me that I need your help in answering/directing me to the answer: 
Question: As Jesus created everything via the direction of His Father, and God the Father created nothing of/by Himself.
How did God the Father create/birth Jesus?  Is it that God COULD create things but CHOOSES NOT TO but rather gives honor to Jesus by instructing Him to created it and get praised for it; or God, "Who can do anything", but being a SPIRIT can't self-create Jesus.  Who helped Him?  (sounds silly as no one else was around (?). 

I know Ray addressed this somewhere but I can't find it.

Jesus explained it in John 10:30 when He said, "I and the Father are one."  Very few believe Jesus.

Ray mentioned it in his article about his Creed, where he stated Jesus is God's autobiography.  But that requires some thinking with the help of God's Spirit.  Those who you converse with on the internet will not "get" it.  Don't throw your pearls before those who are not capable of understanding.
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2012, 09:28:48 AM »

Quote
Don't throw your pearls before those who are not capable of understanding.

Exactly
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arion

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Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2012, 10:28:47 AM »

I'm active on a number of different forums and most forums allow you to have a signature line.  Mine always is;

    What is the lake of fire? What is it's purpose? Is the lake of fire eternal hell? Is there any hope of escape for those cast into this lake?
    http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html


Then the link leads them back to the first lake of fire series.  I know for a fact that many have followed that link back here as I've gotten questions.  Most of the people that are from traditional Christendom think I'm nuts but several have read at least some of the papers and their lives have changed.  And it's interesting that several non believers that have rejected Christianity for the insanity of the teachings have told me that now things are making sense.

God draws those whom he will.  This is a simple silent witness and although most won't take the effort to look some will...and it is enough.  This can be done without teaching and without arguing and just providing a witness.  Just a thought and it's what I've done for several years now.
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Kat

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Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2012, 10:46:27 AM »


Hi Duane,

Quote
Question: As Jesus created everything via the direction of His Father, and God the Father created nothing of/by Himself.
How did God the Father create/birth Jesus?  Is it that God COULD create things but CHOOSES NOT TO but rather gives honor to Jesus by instructing Him to created it and get praised for it; or God, "Who can do anything", but being a SPIRIT can't self-create Jesus.  Who helped Him?


Rev 3:14  "And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: 'The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.

The Son was indeed the "beginning of God's creation." Because it was by/through Him, the Son, that the Father would do the great work of this creation.

John 1:3  All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

As Ray said the Father birthed wisdom, this creation is His conception. And in wisdom the Father brought forth a Son to be the Beginning and the End of this creation. It's not a question that the Father cannot do this, this is the Father's work being accomplished through the Son by the power of the Father, the Holy Spirit.

Col 1:15  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
v. 16  For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
v. 17  And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
v. 18  And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

All of this creation is the Father's work by/through Christ.

John 5:17  But Jesus answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I am working."

John 14:10  Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.

John 10:32  Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?"

God the Father brought forth a Being, the Son, that is His exact replica (mind, character), but in a form and shape that His human creation could relate to and throught this Being the Father is doing the work of this creation.

John 14:9  Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, "Show us the Father'?

John 8:28  Then Jesus said to them, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things.

Mat 28:18  And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Rev 22:13  I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Duane

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Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2012, 06:14:14 PM »

Per usual--thank you ALL for your responses!  More are welcomed!
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levycarneiro

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Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2012, 04:37:14 PM »

Quote
Don't throw your pearls before those who are not capable of understanding.

Exactly

I remember Dave's comment on another (old) thread, something like this:

"These truths are for you"

Which reminds me of Matthew 13:11:

"...it is given unto YOU to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given."

In other words, no matter how hard we try, it will bounce right back at us. So no point.

How hard is to accept the "only you" part!


God bless,
Levy
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levycarneiro

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Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2012, 05:09:18 PM »

Just as a humour piece.

Tried to tell these truths in another forum, but the system is so closed that you need some "reputation points" to earn the right to reply/comment on any questions. Problem is: the only way to earn reputation points is via asking questions (!). You can't earn points by giving answers, no. So even if Jesus was physically here "trying" to reach the world with the full-disclosed truth on that forum, the system is so closed they wouldn't "give" Him a chance! hehe

Again, the truth is OURS today, to those GOD chooses to give it too tomorrow, and to everyone later.

God bless,
Levy
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Kat

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Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2012, 05:59:33 PM »


Well how do we know exactly who "them" are? Yes I know it is those in the world/Babylon in general... but we were one of 'them' at one time. We are all called out of the world/Babylon. If somebody has a desire to preach or teach (not here) or just leave a witness somewhere, why would we ever discourage them from doing so  ???  Wasted time and effort on their part maybe, but maybe not, even if God uses you to reach one single person it would be worth it. I say if you desire to, then go for it.

Like Ray said, "I know God will eventually take everybody to be where they need to go, but sometimes God accelerates things, by the foolishness of preaching.  That's what I am doing."

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2012, 01:54:38 PM »

I certainly don't believe in locking the door behind 'us'.  Every one of 'us' is a testamant to the hunger and thirst that is out there and will continue till this age is over, and beyond, I believe.  People believe because of the foolishness of preaching, though it's God that gives faith.  I don't know how many hits B-T gets in an average month, but I'm guessing many of the new hits (and probably most) read the subject headings and say to themselves "Not for me."  And they would be right....for now.

Duane, I think there are too many things that have to be understood before your question is answered.  Line upon line.  Precept upon precept.  Who says Spirit can't create anything?  Does scripture?  Maybe it does and I've never seen it. 

There may be a sense in which Spirit "can't" create anything, because fundamentally Spirit is already everything.  The world isn't created out of nothing. 

Anyway, that's all I got.  :)  It's kind of a theological question with too many assumptions (right or wrong). 
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

levycarneiro

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Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2012, 02:42:02 PM »

I'm active on a number of different forums and most forums allow you to have a signature line.  Mine always is;

    What is the lake of fire? What is it's purpose? Is the lake of fire eternal hell? Is there any hope of escape for those cast into this lake?
    http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html


Then the link leads them back to the first lake of fire series.  I know for a fact that many have followed that link back here as I've gotten questions.  Most of the people that are from traditional Christendom think I'm nuts but several have read at least some of the papers and their lives have changed.  And it's interesting that several non believers that have rejected Christianity for the insanity of the teachings have told me that now things are making sense.

God draws those whom he will.  This is a simple silent witness and although most won't take the effort to look some will...and it is enough.  This can be done without teaching and without arguing and just providing a witness.  Just a thought and it's what I've done for several years now.

Hello Arion! I had to "steal" your signature line :) I'm using this phrase in another Christian forum as my signature/profile and I hope God uses it to draw more to Him!

God bless
Levy
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levycarneiro

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Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2012, 02:50:30 PM »

I certainly don't believe in locking the door behind 'us'.  Every one of 'us' is a testamant to the hunger and thirst that is out there and will continue till this age is over, and beyond, I believe.  People believe because of the foolishness of preaching, though it's God that gives faith.  I don't know how many hits B-T gets in an average month, but I'm guessing many of the new hits (and probably most) read the subject headings and say to themselves "Not for me."  And they would be right....for now.

"Not for me"

I did that for a few months. But from time to time used to open the front page, glancing the paper titles and thinking "this guy must be a nutjob". I'm glad I'm one too now! :D

"Locking the door behind us"

Agree with both Kat and Dave. We can't help someone understand and believe. On the other side God uses us, even the preaching being foolish. So I'm always trying to find a "happy medium" where God leads me on the WHO and HOW and WHEN to testify. Failed miserably so far, but I hope to have at least 1 person to which I can fully explain what I learned and see this person being blessed and teaching others. Besides my wife of course, for which I'm very glad that she believes the "crazy things" I discuss with her!

God bless
Levy
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2012, 01:10:02 AM »

I hope that happens, Levy.

For me it was minutes after opening the site, not months, but there were many years when it wasn't 'for me' either. 
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

moshe

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Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2012, 07:14:40 PM »

Besides my wife of course, for which I'm very glad that she believes the "crazy things" I discuss with her!

God bless
Levy

My friend,   You are so lucky already.

My friend,   You are so lucky already.

Eventually we will find people that believe in the most unexpected places, and people incredible stubborn on the places where we would supposedly expect believers.

(somewhere in the holy book, there is prove for that, I am sure)
 
« Last Edit: December 22, 2012, 06:15:26 PM by Moises G. »
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levycarneiro

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Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2012, 01:12:42 AM »

Besides my wife of course, for which I'm very glad that she believes the "crazy things" I discuss with her!

God bless
Levy

My friend,   You are so lucky already.

Eventually we will find people that believe in the most unexpected places, and people incredible stubborn on the places where we would supposedly expect believers.

(somewhere in the holy book, there is prove for that, I am sure there is)

I am indeed, thanks brother. We have seen that some of the people to which we comment on these topics and don't run away immediately, are the ones we never expected to see a spark of interest. Praying to see more than a spark!

God bless!
Levy
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thewatchman

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Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2012, 03:58:41 AM »

Good points Kat.
We know the scriptures point to this current version of creation that we dwell in was created By and through Jesus Christ, but who knows how many creations there have been before this one. Especially if it is in God's nature to create. I certainly aren't prepared to limit God by my own imaginations or speculations.
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theophilus

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Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2013, 11:28:18 AM »

Much of my time and writing is taken up on other Christian web-sites expounding truths that I have learned from this web-site,  Ray and the "B-T" administrators.  I then, direct them to this site/home page.

In doing so, I was teaching about the fact that Jesus is the "only begotten" created "first fruit" of God and that God doesn't create but through Jesus, who carries out His Father's will.       

A question was asked of me that I need your help in answering/directing me to the answer: 
Question: As Jesus created everything via the direction of His Father, and God the Father created nothing of/by Himself.
How did God the Father create/birth Jesus?  Is it that God COULD create things but CHOOSES NOT TO but rather gives honor to Jesus by instructing Him to created it and get praised for it; or God, "Who can do anything", but being a SPIRIT can't self-create Jesus.  Who helped Him?  (sounds silly as no one else was around (?). 

I know Ray addressed this somewhere but I can't find it.

Jesus explained it in John 10:30 when He said, "I and the Father are one."  Very few believe Jesus.

Ray mentioned it in his article about his Creed, where he stated Jesus is God's autobiography.  But that requires some thinking with the help of God's Spirit.  Those who you converse with on the internet will not "get" it.  Don't throw your pearls before those who are not capable of understanding.

Hello everyone! I'm new to the forum. I read Ray's Creed and for the life of me, I can't stop thinking about it. I think I understand what Ray wrote. Can someone here go into more detail? Thank you in advance and God bless.
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"So, if the spirit of God is going to be between your ears... you understand your heart is in your brain? Well when the spirit of God starts to motivate your mind then you have greater capacity."

-- Ray Smith

John from Kentucky

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Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2013, 03:50:32 PM »

Much of my time and writing is taken up on other Christian web-sites expounding truths that I have learned from this web-site,  Ray and the "B-T" administrators.  I then, direct them to this site/home page.

In doing so, I was teaching about the fact that Jesus is the "only begotten" created "first fruit" of God and that God doesn't create but through Jesus, who carries out His Father's will.       

A question was asked of me that I need your help in answering/directing me to the answer: 
Question: As Jesus created everything via the direction of His Father, and God the Father created nothing of/by Himself.
How did God the Father create/birth Jesus?  Is it that God COULD create things but CHOOSES NOT TO but rather gives honor to Jesus by instructing Him to created it and get praised for it; or God, "Who can do anything", but being a SPIRIT can't self-create Jesus.  Who helped Him?  (sounds silly as no one else was around (?). 

I know Ray addressed this somewhere but I can't find it.

Jesus explained it in John 10:30 when He said, "I and the Father are one."  Very few believe Jesus.

Ray mentioned it in his article about his Creed, where he stated Jesus is God's autobiography.  But that requires some thinking with the help of God's Spirit.  Those who you converse with on the internet will not "get" it.  Don't throw your pearls before those who are not capable of understanding.

Hello everyone! I'm new to the forum. I read Ray's Creed and for the life of me, I can't stop thinking about it. I think I understand what Ray wrote. Can someone here go into more detail? Thank you in advance and God bless.


Hello friend,

This is a very, very controversial topic on the Forum, and we would not be allowed to discuss this topic here.

Ray brought it to my attention about a year before he died.  Read his last emails during the year before his death.

Understand truly what an autobiography is.  There is a classic piece of American literature called The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin.  Did Franklin write about John Adams or Thomas Jefferson?  Or, did he write about------himself.

Jesus is the Word of God.  Did God write about another?  Or, did He write about------Himself.

Paul and John understood, but Paul wrote that only a few understood.  This understanding is not for the young.  It will take you where only a few have gone before.  I study many things, but I keep coming back to this topic in awe and amazement.

May God's Spirit guide your studies if you are meant to understand this at this time.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 03:53:25 PM by John from Kentucky »
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theophilus

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Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2013, 11:00:42 AM »

Much of my time and writing is taken up on other Christian web-sites expounding truths that I have learned from this web-site,  Ray and the "B-T" administrators.  I then, direct them to this site/home page.

In doing so, I was teaching about the fact that Jesus is the "only begotten" created "first fruit" of God and that God doesn't create but through Jesus, who carries out His Father's will.       

A question was asked of me that I need your help in answering/directing me to the answer: 
Question: As Jesus created everything via the direction of His Father, and God the Father created nothing of/by Himself.
How did God the Father create/birth Jesus?  Is it that God COULD create things but CHOOSES NOT TO but rather gives honor to Jesus by instructing Him to created it and get praised for it; or God, "Who can do anything", but being a SPIRIT can't self-create Jesus.  Who helped Him?  (sounds silly as no one else was around (?). 

I know Ray addressed this somewhere but I can't find it.

Jesus explained it in John 10:30 when He said, "I and the Father are one."  Very few believe Jesus.

Ray mentioned it in his article about his Creed, where he stated Jesus is God's autobiography.  But that requires some thinking with the help of God's Spirit.  Those who you converse with on the internet will not "get" it.  Don't throw your pearls before those who are not capable of understanding.

Hello everyone! I'm new to the forum. I read Ray's Creed and for the life of me, I can't stop thinking about it. I think I understand what Ray wrote. Can someone here go into more detail? Thank you in advance and God bless.


Hello friend,

This is a very, very controversial topic on the Forum, and we would not be allowed to discuss this topic here.

Ray brought it to my attention about a year before he died.  Read his last emails during the year before his death.

Understand truly what an autobiography is.  There is a classic piece of American literature called The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin.  Did Franklin write about John Adams or Thomas Jefferson?  Or, did he write about------himself.

Jesus is the Word of God.  Did God write about another?  Or, did He write about------Himself.

Paul and John understood, but Paul wrote that only a few understood.  This understanding is not for the young.  It will take you where only a few have gone before.  I study many things, but I keep coming back to this topic in awe and amazement.

May God's Spirit guide your studies if you are meant to understand this at this time.

Thanks for your reply John. I didn't know it is controversial. I venture to say then that if a poll were taken of all members of this forum as to what this creed means, we'd get varied answers. I haven't read the autobiography that you mentioned.

The reason I now believe as I do is because God led me to Ray's website. Certainly, the belief in Hell is a controversial one too. I used to subscribe to it, first as a catholic and then as an evangelical. I used to subscribe to the Trinity too (very controversial!). What I am trying to say is that Ray explained things with scripture, not just leave things for people to figure out. His creed is the only thing that I know of that I think he left as a riddle.

But I kinda have an idea of what Ray was hinting at. I just wanted to pursue this point with somebody (if preferred, in private messages), as I pursued others that Ray posted about and backed up with scripture. I don't want to cause any controversy at all. I just want to know more of God. If this creed has gotten in my head is for a good reason.
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"So, if the spirit of God is going to be between your ears... you understand your heart is in your brain? Well when the spirit of God starts to motivate your mind then you have greater capacity."

-- Ray Smith

Gina

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Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2013, 01:17:38 PM »

Hey Theophilus,

Welcome.

That creed is difficult to understand because it's difficult to believe.   I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, so here's my two cents:


I Believe that the Holy Scriptures are God's Authorized Biography, and

What's the definition of biography:  An account of someone's life written by someone else.

Best I can figure, this simply means God inspired people to write the old or the new testament scriptures.  God didn't come down himself and  write them.  I'm not sure who chiseled the ten commandments on stone tablets, or the writing on the wall, though.  I'm sure someone did it; I just don't know who actually did the chiseling/writing.

I Believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is God's Authorized Autobiography

What's the definition of autobiography:   An account of a person's life written by that person.

Jesus Christ didn't personally write the scriptures.  So what does that mean? He was given authority to tell the whole world what God the Father is all about.  He did that in the life that he personally lived here on earth 2000 years ago, and continues to, as He does the works of the Father through the hearts of all believers.

Ray said, you won't understand anything until you begin to obey God.  Just obey Him, follow Him, and it will become abundantly clear what Ray means.

I hope that helps.

Gina
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