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[theophilus]

This is HOW LONG our lives are in the context of the universe:

For what is your life? For it is a vapor, which appears for a little time, and then disappears. (James 4:14)

Now, if 1000 years is about a day for God, 13.75 billion years should equate to about 137 million five hundred thousand (137,500,000) of our days! Or roughly 37,671 of our years! This means that since the creation of the universe, 37,671  years have passed on God's calendar. Talk about patience! I pose a question: what did He do all that time BEFORE ANY life appeared on the face of this planet?

When it comes to eternity, I've read that it will be void of time. Time will cease to exist after the last eon comes to an end. In chapter 21 of the Book of Revelation, John wrote that God would live with His people in a new heaven and a new earth where the old order of things has passed away.

Any of you have an insight regarding time after the last eon?

[Kat]

Hi theophilus,

Ray did a Bible study in 08n called 'Time and Eternity,' here are the links.

audios
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible Study 11-30-08 Pt. 1.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible Study 11-30-08 Pt. 2.mp3

video
http://bible-truths.com/video/study113008.wmv

mercy, peace and love
Kat


                                           

[gregorydc]

I know we all think of a year as a long period of time, it is, on this planet speaking relatively. But how long is a year for our sun, which revolves around the center of our galaxy? Or how long is a year for our galaxy which revolves around the center of the universe?  It all reminds me of a song from my "sesame street" childhood, "that's about the size ,where you put your eyes. That's about the size of it" . Since we can only see the magnificent creation of God from our own vantage point (on a tiny planet, circling a tiny star) how in this life will we ever understand the scope and magnitude of this physical creation?  It is God who did it in his time, maybe it really happened in just a few seconds in Gods perspective?  Not to worry family, all of these questions and more will be answered in full in Gods time.
Greg

[levycarneiro]

I think "1000 years to God" just means infinity. We perceive time, and God is out of time.

[Joel]

According to scientist the universe is still growing, or expanding.

Jesus gave a couple examples that require time, and speak concerning the kingdom of God.

Luke 13:18 Then said he, Unto what is the kingdom of God like? and whereunto shall I resemble it?
19: It is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and cast into his garden; and it grew, and waxed a great tree; and the fowls of the air lodged in the branches of it.

20:And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the Kingdom of God?
21: It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

Joel

[theophilus]

Hi theophilus,

Ray did a Bible study in 08n called 'Time and Eternity,' here are the links.

audios
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible

video
http://bible-truths.com/video/study113008.wmv

mercy, peace and love
Kat                                           

Thank you for the links Kat!

I heard Ray say that in his teens he heard on TV that time is a location, that he added "geographical" to location. In other words, time is a geographical location. I suspect Ray was thinking of time as being the fourth dimension.

This reminded me that scientists theorize that time STOPS at the event horizon of a black hole. Einstein's theory of relativity predicts this phenomenon. The event horizon of a black hole is that point from where an object cannot escape its gravitational pull nor does it fall INTO the black hole. This is when time stops, say for a space traveler, if his spaceship reaches the event horizon. This means that time is relative. Time in the spatial frame of a black hole runs differently from our spatial frame, for instance.

BTW, your first two links are broken. Only the link for the video is working.

Mercy, peace and love to you too.

Roger.

[Michael]

Try here Roger. Bottom of the page.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8256.0.html

[Kat]

Hi Roger,

Well I really don't see how time can stop at one point, event horizon of a black hole, and continue on everywhere else. I know it's just a theory, but doesn't sound right to me.

I don't think Ray was speaking of a 'fourth dimension,' he was speaking of the here and now, in the physical, but beyond as well. Time is not a substance or a thing, but a relation between things, the relation between changes in things. I think you could say that time is the measure of change in the physical world now, but will continue as we move beyond the physical.

I haven't read this transcript in quite a while and there is much to be gained from it.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,10538.msg90948.html#msg90948 ----

Psa 102:25  …and the heavens [are] the work of Your (Comment: This is speaking of God.) hands.
v. :26  They shall perish (Comment: What? The heavens and the earth.), but You shall endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shall You change them, and they shall be changed:
v. 27 But You [art] the same, and Your years shall have no end.

Didn’t we read from both of these people (being discussed in this study) that when the creation is done away with that there will be no time?  When there is no sun will there be years? No?  “All of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shall You change them, and they shall be changed:  But You [art] the same, and Your YEARS shall have no end.”  “Shall have” present progressive into the future, “no end.”

Didn’t J. Preston Eby say that the way to tell if the Bible is talking about something that continues, the Bible uses the phrase “no end?’  I read that right at the beginning, he knows that. Here’s one that says, the years of God. You say, ‘well it’s talking about spiritual years.’ It doesn’t matter, he uses the word “years, shall have no end.” Who you going to believe the Bible or theologians, Christian ministers.

Luke 1:33  …and of His kingdom there shall be no end.

Now it doesn’t say what about the kingdom, it just says “of the kingdom.” Whatever pertains to the kingdom will have “no end.” 

Let’s go to Proverbs next. This is the one I used at the conference. Remember I had all of those words; processes, events, happenings, changing and remember they used them all interchangeably... all this has to do with the physical universe and time, has nothing to do before or after the creation. Wrong paleface.

Pro 8:22  The LORD possessed me in the beginning of His way, BEFORE His works of old.

"Before"… ‘You mean some-time before?’ Well yea, I would think sometime before.

Pro 8:23 I was set up from everlasting (aonian), from the beginning, or ever (That means before) the earth was.
------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[theophilus]

Einstein is greatly overrated.  His theories do not predict what happens on the other side of a black hole, nor what it was like before the Big Bang.  Also, his General Theory of Relativity did not predict the expansion of the universe at an ever increasing velocity the further objects become from one another.  There is still no adequate proven explanation for that phenomena discovered in the later 1990s.  Also, his explanation of gravity is inadequate.

God's name of Jehovah (Yahweh) means "He is coming", (in Hebrew,third person singular, incomplete action, thus in future time).

In Revelation, God is called "Is, Was, and Will Be",-----an existence in time.

And Ray's quotation of the Scriptures showing God is working through time.

And with all due respect, you greatly underrate him. No one else in his time was able to understand and discover what he did. Not even Niels Bohr! In my lowly opinion, these two gentlemen were luminaries, geniuses in their own right. Having said this, his theories are by no means complete, as are not Bohr's theories either, but are an echelon in man's quest for a unifying theory that might explain the workings of our universe. I don't think he ever claimed that his theories explained or summed up how the universe works. Quantum mechanics was the next echelon and God only knows what will be next.

Nowadays, physicists are very excited by the discovery of THE FIELD, or THE DIVINE MATRIX. This is what they're calling this "field" that fills up "empty space". In fact, it permeates EVERYTHING--even us. According to the physicists working on this, we are all connected through this field, even the animals and inanimate objects. They're claiming that his field displays PURE INTELLIGENCE.

Let's wait and see what comes out of this.

Blessings.

[theophilus]

Hi Roger,

Well I really don't see how time can stop at one point, event horizon of a black hole, and continue on everywhere else. I know it's just a theory, but doesn't sound right to me.

I don't think Ray was speaking of a 'fourth dimension,' he was speaking of the here and now, in the physical, but beyond as well. Time is not a substance or a thing, but a relation between things, the relation between changes in things. I think you could say that time is the measure of change in the physical world now, but will continue as we move beyond the physical.

I haven't read this transcript in quite a while and there is much to be gained from it.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,10538.msg90948.html#msg90948 ----

Psa 102:25  …and the heavens [are] the work of Your (Comment: This is speaking of God.) hands.
v. :26  They shall perish (Comment: What? The heavens and the earth.), but You shall endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shall You change them, and they shall be changed:
v. 27 But You [art] the same, and Your years shall have no end.

Didn’t we read from both of these people (being discussed in this study) that when the creation is done away with that there will be no time?  When there is no sun will there be years? No?  “All of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shall You change them, and they shall be changed:  But You [art] the same, and Your YEARS shall have no end.”  “Shall have” present progressive into the future, “no end.”

Didn’t J. Preston Eby say that the way to tell if the Bible is talking about something that continues, the Bible uses the phrase “no end?’  I read that right at the beginning, he knows that. Here’s one that says, the years of God. You say, ‘well it’s talking about spiritual years.’ It doesn’t matter, he uses the word “years, shall have no end.” Who you going to believe the Bible or theologians, Christian ministers.

Luke 1:33  …and of His kingdom there shall be no end.

Now it doesn’t say what about the kingdom, it just says “of the kingdom.” Whatever pertains to the kingdom will have “no end.” 

Let’s go to Proverbs next. This is the one I used at the conference. Remember I had all of those words; processes, events, happenings, changing and remember they used them all interchangeably... all this has to do with the physical universe and time, has nothing to do before or after the creation. Wrong paleface.

Pro 8:22  The LORD possessed me in the beginning of His way, BEFORE His works of old.

"Before"… ‘You mean some-time before?’ Well yea, I would think sometime before.

Pro 8:23 I was set up from everlasting (aonian), from the beginning, or ever (That means before) the earth was.
------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Hello Kat, thanks agains for the resources.

Time is another dimension in our three-dimensional universe. You can tell me WHERE you are right now by giving me your coordinates. Suppose I were to meet with you and took a plane. I might get there in a few hours. You will probably not be there but someplace else. You didn't tell the WHEN part of your whereabouts. My point is wherever we are geographically, there is also a time component. I'm typing this around 5:10 pm on January 29, 2013. This is the fourth dimension I'm talking about: TIME.

If TIME will continue to be in ETERNITY, then time itself is already or will be eternal. Like I've imagined on many occasions, eternity WILL BE A VERY LONG TIME. What will we do with it? It's been claimed that God has ALWAYS EXISTED. You realize that ALWAYS is talking about time. So, maybe TIME is ETERNAL, since God has ALWAYS EXISTED. I don't think people realize what this statement means when they say it. The conclusion is that time has been God's companion. I conclude this IF AND ONLY IF God has ALWAYS existed.

Maybe it's incorrect to say God has always existed; maybe a more accurate observation would be GOD IS, regardless of whether we talk of the past, present or the future. God IS in the past, God IS in the present and God IS in the future. Also, God IS before the creation of the Universe.

Blessings

[theophilus]

Einstein is greatly overrated.  His theories do not predict what happens on the other side of a black hole, nor what it was like before the Big Bang.  Also, his General Theory of Relativity did not predict the expansion of the universe at an ever increasing velocity the further objects become from one another.  There is still no adequate proven explanation for that phenomena discovered in the later 1990s.  Also, his explanation of gravity is inadequate.

God's name of Jehovah (Yahweh) means "He is coming", (in Hebrew,third person singular, incomplete action, thus in future time).

In Revelation, God is called "Is, Was, and Will Be",-----an existence in time.

And Ray's quotation of the Scriptures showing God is working through time.   

Yes, John. God is working THROUGH time. But this doesn't mean that God is bound by time. I believe time exists INSIDE our universe. You said the universe is expanding. What's the medium it's expanding in? Is time running in that medium? or is time running only in our universe? Like I commented to Kat, if God HAS ALWAYS existed, then time has always existed too. Existence has to do with time. This is why I say that this statement might be incorrect.

Blessings.

[Gina]

Like I've imagined on many occasions, eternity WILL BE A VERY LONG TIME. What will we do with it?

~Theo

I can only imagine.

Not to be snarky, but no one can give you a satisfactory response to that question because no one knows the answer to that - and how could we?  We haven't gotten there yet!  See? 

Who wants to bet God knows what we'll do with all that time? 

[Gina]

Too true.

[Rhys 🕊]

Too true is right and I like what you said John - God and He alone is the only One Who impresses me.

I'm not sure about all this Einstein stuff but then me brain not so well.

All I know about time is that there is never enough of it each day to get everything done.

When your in God's presence time moves on pretty fast. I was once praying for 5-6 hours and it only seemed like 1 hour. When your with God time has no affect but perhaps that just me.

Oddball Rhys

[indianabob]

Perhaps we should use care in attributing anthropomorphic limitations to the Creator God.

e.g. That God waits patiently for humanity to spread across the earth and become as numerous as the sands of the sea does not necessarily prove that God was limited to that method. It could just as reasonably be that God chooses to use time to teach us what God already knows about patience because God invented it or HAD it from the beginning.

Another example might be that God actually enjoys guiding and watching us grow in grace and knowledge and does not need to have a rapid result. In other words he enjoys living and working with all of us and watching our progress. It is only mankind that wants quick results, but God knows the end from the beginning.

Think of the conception and development of God's only begotten son Lord Jesus. A period of thirty some years which God monitored every day for some 12000 days. Then for the next couple of thousand years watching his perfect and faithful son lead, govern and manage the growth and development of all those that Father God had given him, the called and chosen.

It's not about winning the game because that is a foregone conclusion, rather it is being in the game as the owner/head coach and participating in bringing all the sons of God into the family, individually, one at a time. That's what God loves, that's God's reward, watching His children develop their talents.

Indiana Bob

[Gina]

Perhaps we should use care in attributing anthropomorphic limitations to the Creator God.

e.g. That God waits patiently for humanity to spread across the earth and become as numerous as the sands of the sea does not necessarily prove that God was limited to that method. It could just as reasonably be that God chooses to use time to teach us what God already knows about patience because God invented it or HAD it from the beginning.

Another example might be that God actually enjoys guiding and watching us grow in grace and knowledge and does not need to have a rapid result. In other words he enjoys living and working with all of us and watching our progress. It is only mankind that wants quick results, but God knows the end from the beginning.

Think of the conception and development of God's only begotten son Lord Jesus. A period of thirty some years which God monitored every day for some 12000 days. Then for the next couple of thousand years watching his perfect and faithful son lead, govern and manage the growth and development of all those that Father God had given him, the called and chosen.

It's not about winning the game because that is a foregone conclusion, rather it is being in the game as the owner/head coach and participating in bringing all the sons of God into the family, individually, one at a time. That's what God loves, that's God's reward, watching His children develop their talents.

Indiana Bob

iBob,

We want it yesterday.


.
.
.
.
.
v

[Gina]

Pleasure moves on too early and trouble leaves too slow. 
~Joni Mitchell~

[theophilus]

Einstein is greatly overrated.  His theories do not predict what happens on the other side of a black hole, nor what it was like before the Big Bang.  Also, his General Theory of Relativity did not predict the expansion of the universe at an ever increasing velocity the further objects become from one another.  There is still no adequate proven explanation for that phenomena discovered in the later 1990s.  Also, his explanation of gravity is inadequate.

God's name of Jehovah (Yahweh) means "He is coming", (in Hebrew,third person singular, incomplete action, thus in future time).

In Revelation, God is called "Is, Was, and Will Be",-----an existence in time.

And Ray's quotation of the Scriptures showing God is working through time.   

Yes, John. God is working THROUGH time. But this doesn't mean that God is bound by time. I believe time exists INSIDE our universe. You said the universe is expanding. What's the medium it's expanding in? Is time running in that medium? or is time running only in our universe? Like I commented to Kat, if God HAS ALWAYS existed, then time has always existed too. Existence has to do with time. This is why I say that this statement might be incorrect.

Blessings.

God and He alone is the only One Who impresses me.

The Scriptures tell us what a man is, "Dust you are and to dust you shall return."  Dirt doesn't do anything for me.  Any being that has to eat food and breathe air to live, and has to use the bathroom, just does not impress me.

Einstein is dead, and the great ( ) man's brain has been cut up into little pieces for study.  Not impressive at all.

    You say "if God HAS ALWAYS existed". 

Hello John, the Scriptures also tell us to LOVE OUR FELLOW MAN, nor to disparage them. To me, it makes no difference whether they're alive or dead.

Certainly, it goes without saying that God impress us all like no one else ever could. I'm not talking about idolizing anybody. For that matter, abandon any and all technology that you now use because certain unimpressive people invented it. Since the "dusty" inventor doesn't impress you at all, much less his contributions to humanity.

Certainly God impresses me, and this without having seen Him, but on a different level a human calculator impresses me for her ability to crunch numbers in her head; maybe you can do it. If you did, I'd be impressed, but not on the same level as God impresses me. This is totally different. Any human achievement will always fall short of God's knowledge and capabilities. Like I said, this goes without saying.

[Einstein is dead, and the great ( ) man's brain has been cut up into little pieces for study.  Not impressive at all]

A lack of respect for the dead appears to be expressed by your paragraph above. That's not my attitude towards them, as unimpressive as they might be. I come from a war-torn country. I myself still have shrapnels in my body from a tank shell that exploded in our midst. I witnessed heavy machinery shovel the dead into mass graves. Maybe this experience causes me to have respect for the dead. I don't know.

The phrase I used "if God HAS ALWAYS existed" is used by countless Christians and non-Christians when discussing eternity and God. That's why I capitalized "has always". As I expressed to Kat, to speak of God EXISTING or HAS ALWAYS EXISTED might not be descriptive of the actual truth regarding His existence. Contrary to what you might think, I do not doubt God's existence.

In His Name

[theophilus]

Perhaps we should use care in attributing anthropomorphic limitations to the Creator God.

e.g. That God waits patiently for humanity to spread across the earth and become as numerous as the sands of the sea does not necessarily prove that God was limited to that method. It could just as reasonably be that God chooses to use time to teach us what God already knows about patience because God invented it or HAD it from the beginning.

Another example might be that God actually enjoys guiding and watching us grow in grace and knowledge and does not need to have a rapid result. In other words he enjoys living and working with all of us and watching our progress. It is only mankind that wants quick results, but God knows the end from the beginning.

Think of the conception and development of God's only begotten son Lord Jesus. A period of thirty some years which God monitored every day for some 12000 days. Then for the next couple of thousand years watching his perfect and faithful son lead, govern and manage the growth and development of all those that Father God had given him, the called and chosen.

It's not about winning the game because that is a foregone conclusion, rather it is being in the game as the owner/head coach and participating in bringing all the sons of God into the family, individually, one at a time. That's what God loves, that's God's reward, watching His children develop their talents.

Indiana Bob

You might be right! That would be God's JOY. We can speculate all day long about many things, but what matters is that God is accomplishing His will and purpose for each of us by having us grow to the full stature of His Son Jesus Christ. I believe that He is actively involved in all that happens on this little planet 24/7. He is busy!

God bless you.

[theophilus]

Like I've imagined on many occasions, eternity WILL BE A VERY LONG TIME. What will we do with it?

~Theo

I can only imagine.

Not to be snarky, but no one can give you a satisfactory response to that question because no one knows the answer to that - and how could we?  We haven't gotten there yet!  See? 

Who wants to bet God knows what we'll do with all that time? 

My bad! My question was a rhetorical one. I wasn't expecting anyone to know. I know this is something that hasn't been revealed to man.

But I do remember Ray say something about God using His chosen ones to bring the rest of humankind to salvation, and later THE REST OF THE UNIVERSE. His statement is very intriguing and brings up more questions. I'm sure you have thought about this already.

Here it is!!!:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13817.msg121839.html#msg121839

Ray's words:

Here is where we really get to what OUR salvation is all about. We, the BODY of Christ, who ARE the SONS OF GOD will be used to SAVE THE REST OF THE WORLD AND THE REST OF THE UNIVERSE!! "Or are  you not aware that the SAINTS shall judge the WORLD?... Are you not aware that we shall be JUDGING ANGELS..."

More questions indeed....