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Not easy for the Elect, and also not easy for the many

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levycarneiro:
Hello Mike!


--- Quote from: Michael on December 08, 2012, 09:46:35 AM ---Yes and no.
Using Paul as an example, he was routinely physically beaten, (bad now) , however, he says that he was (spiritually) glad for this, (good now), so I guess it depends on what current life you are asking about. The carnal or the spiritual.

--- End quote ---

I mean spiritual, as in the hardships and persecutions the Elect go through now.


--- Quote from: Michael on December 08, 2012, 09:46:35 AM ---    "For whom the Lord loves He CHASTENS, and SCOURGES every son whom He receives" (Heb. 12:6).

--- End quote ---

Exactly.


--- Quote from: Michael on December 08, 2012, 09:46:35 AM ---Ray has also pointed out elsewhere that purification of the non chosen later will not be a picnic, (bad later), but the end result will be good, (good much later).

--- End quote ---

That's basically my question in other words :)

Where in the Scriptures can we know this 'picnic' is really worse than our 'picnic' now (tribulations, etc).

Judging by the Ray's comment you posted, it appears it's probably "just" bad, but maybe not worse.

This question here in this post, just came to my mind while sharing the truth with my brother, and I caught myself thinking "self note: investigate later if the many's LOF is harder than the Elect's LOF now". That's basically it :)


--- Quote from: Michael on December 08, 2012, 09:46:35 AM ---I personally do not go out of my way to tell people what I know. Not because I want to save them from a life of persecution, but rather, nobody wants to know the truth. In the course of conversation, if someone mentions something that is unscriptural, I will drop a hint to see if they want more, but most do not. A few do, so I will print out Rays material for them, but so far, it has not gone further.
My favorite is when someone at work does or says something off color then says, "I'm going to hell'. I respond as sincerely as I can and say, 'There is no Hell', but for the most part, it goes nowhere. If interest is peeked, I go into a little more detail only to be met with the blank stares of disinterest or looked at like I'm a loony because the church says there is a hell. One time, when sharing this information with a 'Christian', he told me that the information was from the Devil and stormed away. That actually made me smile.

--- End quote ---

I always love to know how others share the truth, how they interact in situations like these. Very good, thanks for sharing.


--- Quote from: Michael on December 08, 2012, 09:46:35 AM ---Though I have been a lurker here for a couple of years, I'm still new to all of this and reserve the right to be completely off the mark with this reply. :)
Mike

--- End quote ---

Welcome, good to have you here! I've been blessed so much since I joined and I'm grateful for the patience our brothers and sisters here have on all of us newcomers such as myself :)

God bless you all
Levy

G. Driggs:
Hi Levy,

Found this little snippet for ya.

http://www.bible-truths.com/lake3.html

Make no mistake about it; if you will follow Jesus Christ, you will experience many of the hardships spoken of in these Scriptures. I am not saying that it is necessary to teach youngsters in Sunday School these deeper truths of God, but if we adults are to ever go on to maturity in Christ, it’s time to get our heads out of the sand!

The good news is that if we have a volunteering heart and accept the judgments of God on our lives now, we will be sure to avoid the harsher judgment on the whole world reserved for "that day."

    "For if we would JUDGE [Gk: diakrino=THROUGH JUDGE, separate thoroughly, to withdraw, discern, judge] OURSELVES [members of the called-out House of God], we should not be judged [Gk: krino=judge, set right, decide, to try, condemn, punish]. But when we are judged [the same Greek word krino as used above with reference to judging the wicked world] we are CHASTENED of the Lord, that we should not be condemned [Gk: katakrino, an adverse sentence] with the world" (I Cor. 11:32).

Pay close attention to the three Greek words, diakrino, krino, and katakrino, used in this verse.

There is so much contained in this verse. There is a judgment now on God’s saints. We are judged by being "chastened of the Lord." What does that mean? "Chastened" is from the Greek word paideuo and here is what it means: "to train up a child, i.e. educate, or (by impl.) discipline (by punishment): -- chasten (-ise), instruct, learn, teach" (Strong’s Greek Dictionary p. 54).

Are you following this amazing use of words? You will now learn a marvelous truth of Scripture that is not being taught in any theological seminary that I am aware of anywhere in the whole world.

We are "judged" by God, and the vehicle that God uses to do this judging is "chastening." In other words, we are "judged" by God by being "trained up" like a child, by being "educated," by "discipline" involving "punishment," "instructed," by which we "learn," and all these "teach" us WHAT WE SHOULD BE.

There is no doubt that some of this chastening can be harsh, sorrowful, and painful. Much of it is not very pleasant and God admits as much to us. And it is not possible for one single son of God to avoid this chastisement! Let’s read it:

WHEN GRACE IS A VERB

Grace means favor, a gift, to be cheerful, well, happy, graciously, freely, deliverance from danger, and a dozen other benevolent qualities of peace, joy, goodness, and salvation. It is one of those truly wonderful words of blessing. But just how does it operate in "the real world" as we say? A definition does not tell us everything about a word. We can, likewise, define "love" as, a deep, tender feeling of affection. But does that definition tell us how love actually functions?

We learned that "...when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord" (I Cor. 11:32).

Chastening defines how it is that God judges us. Now then, we are about to learn one of the most remarkable spiritual truths in the whole Bible:

    "For the grace of God that brings salvation hath appeared to all men , teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world [eon or age]" (Titus 2:11-12).

Here then is the remarkable parallel between God’s judgment and His grace:
God "judges" us by "chastening" us! (I Cor. 11:32)    "chasten," Greek: ‘paideuo’ #3811
God "graces" us by "teaching" us! (Titus 2:12)    "teaching," Greek: ‘paideuo’ #3811

WOW! Do you even begin to understand what you have just read? Whether God "JUDGES" us (and later the wicked world), or "GRACES" us, He does it THE SAME WAY!!

"Judging" is CHASTENING (Strong’s #3811), and "gracing" is CHASTENING (Strong’s #3811). It is the SAME WORD!

"Grace" is not a stagnant feel-good noun -- it is also a verb -- that is, it does something; it accomplishes something; it produces something of great value in the believer.

"Teaching" accomplishes something essential in making man into God’s very image.

The next verse tells us what it "teaches" us: "denying ungodliness and worldly lusts... living soberly, righteously, and godly!" Just the words "living godly" will cover every single thing that God EVER ASKS OF US -- EVERYTHING. "Living GODLY" covers every possible act of faith, love, and obedience that anyone could ever conceive of.

When God uses the SAME WORD to describe something that He wishes to accomplish, it behooves us to study deeply what that word means, especially when that word has to do with the very destiny of all peoples who have ever lived.

The subject of I Cor. 11:32 is JUDGING.
The subject of Titus 2:11 is GRACE AND SALVATION.

HOW does God "judge" us? BY CHASTENING (#3811, paideuo)!.
HOW does God's "grace and save" us? BY CHASTENING (#3811, paideuo)!

God JUDGES by chastening (I Cor. 11:32), and God GRACES by chastening (Titus 2:11).
By GRACE GOD JUDGES US and by JUDGING GOD GRACES US!

Gracing us by means of chastening, TEACHES US TO LIVE GODLY and brings salvation. Judging us by means of chastening, also TEACHES US TO LIVE GODLY and brings salvation!

It is high time we dispense with the hypocrisy.

When God JUDGES US THROUGH CHASTENING (I Cor. 11:32) it is for our good and for our benefit and for our salvation. Why then do we think that God changes character when He likewise judges the wicked, unjust, and non-believers at the great white throne? Why? God changes NOT! God is NOT a respecter of persons. You read all of these Scriptures. Do we think the Scriptures LIE?

If you are not rejoicing over these profound and marvelous revelations, then you must be spiritually asleep. I have just shown you one of the most remarkable truths in the entirety of the Bible! You would do well to not read any further until you thoroughly grasp what has been presented here.

Here an email response from Ray that I thought might be worth sharing.

Wow Ray, I really have to thank you.

I read your paper 'exposing those who contradict'. I always thought I have to live a righteous and perfect life to be saved, but now I can live how ever I please, go to sleep for a while (when I die) sleep till Jesus comes again, be resurrected from the dead just like He was, REPENT, and then be reigning on earth with Him for eternity afterwards.

I'm glad you made me realize and showed me proof through scriptures (gave me Gods ok) living a life of sin wont effect my eternity in anyway, maybe just my life here on earth somewhat (what goes around comes around) but that don't really matter to me because I get to live how I want to live now in exchange, so its worth it to me, a little punishment here and there ain't a big deal ... what's the worst that could happen to me, pain and suffering don't bother me ... death I guess, but that will be abolished too, and I'll be sleeping with no perception of my physical death so it don't matter.

I cant wait to start sinning again. I miss doing so many things I don't do no more (especially committing adultery), makes me love Jesus even more that He saved me from all my sins I committed and plan to commit, but I still don't understand why He had to save me or what He saved me from since there is no HELL or any type of eternal death to have ever worried about, what would have happened if Jesus never saved me?

Maybe you could explain if you got the time, or tell me which of your papers to read that will answer my question.

Thanks again Ray, God bless you.

P.S. I guess all those who told me, it don't matter how you live all you have to do is believe in Jesus. I guess they were right, but even then you made me realize that even if I didn't know or ever believe in Jesus or God the Father, it still wouldn't have effected my eternity in any way. Thank you.

[Ray Replies]

Dear Nameless:

You speak as FOOL!

God will bring all mankind to repentance and they will learn righteousness just as Isaiah prophesied.

There is coming a time of severe judgment upon sinning mankind. It will not be a walk in the park for any of them. God will purge them all with the fires of His Spirit. But then, all mankind will be saved. This occurs at the white throne judgment, not when Christ returns to reign on the earth.

And, no you will NOT reign with Christ if you purposefully go back into sin. It is the "overcomer" who will reign with Christ.

Of course your foolishness speaks volumes regarding your motives in following God. You don't believe that living righteously is the right way, the best way, or the ONLY WAY to live in the first place. I have not taught any such foolishness as you are proposing.

And I firmly believe that it is people with your attitude that will be judged the most severely. YOU MOCK GOD AND YOU MOCK HIS WORD! Your own words condemn you.  You need to repent of your rotten attitude.

Maybe you need to read "EXPOSING THOSE WHO CONTRADICT" again, but this time look up all the Scriptural references I give.

Sincerely,

Ray
--------------------------

Hope this helps a little

Gina:
Lots of a great replies here.

It is the exact same fire; however, it will be harder and more severe for the wicked to go through the fire simply because they are not at all willing to forsake their wicked thoughts and ways.  When God knocks on their "doors," they don't open.  They don't say, Come in and let's eat, I want to hear what you have to say.  They will run the other way (much like a child will do to their parent when they're caught doing things they shouldn't).   So judgment and chastening is the same for both the wicked and the just but it will only be more severe because there will be so much resistance coming from the wicked, but it is the exact same fire.  There is a proverb (and I can't remember which one it is) that says it is an evil thing for the wicked to give up his ways.  And that's the only reason why it will be harder for them; not because their sins are so much more vile than anyone else's because they really aren't.  You break one law you're guilty of all.

And that makes me think of how Abraham was instructed by God to take his son Isaac to be sacrificed on the altar.  What a horrifying thought.  Imagine being obedient to that command when it comes to your own child.  Geez, the thought of that freaks me out!  It's one thing if the child is someone you don't especially like, but how obedient would you want to be to that command when you're son is completely innocent?  Geez.  But then God provided Abraham the sacrifice and Isaac wasn't sacrificed after all.  So while Abraham was willing to be obedient to God's command, God already had in place a sacrifice--a propitiation.

We have propitiation for our sins, and not only ours but for the whole world!  But "Christians" don't like the sound of that.  They don't like that Christ died for the world of unbelievers too!  That's an evil thought that "christians" will have to forsake and bitterly repent of one day and it will be very hard for them to give that up.  And it's going to be total torture for them.  Maybe just as hard for them as it will be for Hitler to forsake his ways in thinking that he is better than the people he murdered.  Because after all, don't Christians believe they're better than Hitler?  They don't see that except for a few minor changes they would have done the same things that Hitler did.  Just because Hitler and his ilk will be saved, doesn't mean that they're "deserving" of salvation, but that if they are not saved by God, then that will make God out to be a total failure!  Is that what they want?  A failure for a god?  Many christians, like myself, go through this evil thing where we think, Hmmm...  I don't want him in my club because he doesn't think like me.... 

But they never stop to consider that one "day" they will think like them.  We will be like-minded when God is all in all. 

That doesn't mean we have to be all "huggie huggie and kissy-face" with the Hitlers of the world, because that is not what God commands.

indianabob:
Friend Gina,
I liked your contribution very much. It seemed to cover the areas that hadn't been explained elsewhere.
My contribution is as follows: Sometimes a really "good" person who does not want to show off their "superiority" is doing the exact same thing by glorying in their own perfection so to speak. In that case, they who have been good due to timidity or fear of punishment or fear of not being accepted by their parents or fellow workers are just as much in need of correction.
God doesn't respect a fearful attitude or one of holding back your desires due to fear of confrontation. God expects us to try our ideas and find out through experience that our ideas don't work for the benefit of others or for that matter for our own long term benefit.
It's like the man who buried his talent instead of investing it for gain. Mt 25:14.
God wants us to act on what we have been given even if we stumble and receive needed correction. Learn to step out in faith and take the risk and learn the lesson.

The other aspect of my view is that we in the modern age have been given so much that we tend to take if for granted. We tend to believe that we have accomplished more than any other society and that we are more intelligent or gifted than those who had to live off of the land and labor 16 hours a day just to survive.
So then one of the fiery tests we must face is recognizing our own limitations and helplessness apart from God's gifts and God's strengthening in our daily lives.

A really rich person with no daily fear of hunger or being homeless still has to overcome the feeling of superiority or condescension toward the less accomplished among us.
A superior attitude of self satisfaction can be just as difficult to correct as the one of a person who beats his wife and children into submission. So the lake of fire will definitely be needed for them to mold them into a useful vessel for God's spirit. Great wealth can be just as much a burden as great poverty until one learns humility and reverence for God and all that we have been given.

Again thanks for your comments, I-bob

Michael:
Hi again Levy,
I don't know if you got your answer yet, but I ran across this last night from Part 1 of the LOF series, in the "God IS this lake of fire!" section.
http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html

"God doesn’t change. He will use the same method in the day of judging at the white throne as He uses on US. Although the intensity will get considerably more severe for those who blaspheme till the end."

Ray did not give scriptural reference, but I'm sure he knows what he's talking about..
Mike

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