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Author Topic: Not easy for the Elect, and also not easy for the many  (Read 14942 times)

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onelovedread

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Re: Not easy for the Elect, and also not easy for the many
« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2012, 02:17:29 PM »

Kat
Quote
It is a privilege to be of the elect, there is no doubt about it, but it is not our decision to be one or not, they are 'elected' by God to be in that position. So you can and should rejoice in the hope of being an elect, but we can take no credit or boost for what we have been given.

I just want to ask. Does the fact that we've been called mean that we're automatically part of the elect. And here I am specifically referring to the few that have been chosen
Quote
a group of just a few being prepared to serve/help/rule in the kingdom to bring in the rest to salvation.
I didn't get the impression from Ray's teaching or from the Word that it was a foregone conclusion.
I know, Marques, I already hear you saying "Go back and read Ray's writings" lol
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levycarneiro

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Re: Not easy for the Elect, and also not easy for the many
« Reply #21 on: December 24, 2012, 02:45:09 PM »

haha, You know what, Levy.  I think you're smart to keep this one in the back of your mind.  I don't know if judgment on the many lasts 1 minute in the LOF for some (certainly Christ said that those who knew the Father's will and did not do it but began to beat the menservants,etc., would be receiving many lashes--in a mere minute?  don't know), or if their judgment will last the equivalent of an entire lifetime as "an experience of evil"  -- I mean how much experience can you ascertain in one minute?  I guess when I think of the "day" of the Lord, then I don't think in terms of a literal "day" but in terms of an era.  Paul was the worst sinner there was and yet he was hounded by a messenger of Satan to buffet him (but then again that was to keep him from getting too puffed up with the revelations he received -- as he was puffed up on the Road to Damascus, not because he was being judged or maybe it was because he was being judged, I don't know).  Paul, when, confronted with a man in his church in Corinth who was committing incest, chided the Corinthians for in essence wrapping their warm loving arms around him and not judging him (by putting him out of their presence) to learn not to do those things and then after he learned he could be brought back.  Would throwing a man like that out for a whole minute change his ways? 

This is not to say that I'm any better than the man spoken of. 

Even Jesus said: 
Why do you stare from without at the speck in your brother's eye

I myself would not be too quick to throw the man committing incest out of the church -- considering the huge beam of timber in my own eye.

Maybe that's where the Corinthians were coming from, and Paul turned around and said, No!  Uh-Uh!  Get him out!

For a minute?  I don't know.  I just don't know.

If you find out the answer let me know. 

Meantime, I'll just be over here trying to get this HUGE plank outta my own eye.

;)

Hello Gina,

you gave enough thoughts so my rambling of 1 minute in the LOF looks ridiculous (what it really is :)

I guess I was thinking of Paul's conversion in 1 minute (the light and all). But anyway God still judged Paul for still many years after that, so it would be unfair for God to perfect people in less time. I think the time contraints we experience now such as patience requires time for perfecting it, and such things like that, still applies (obviously) during the LOF.

I just don't get why the judgment is more intense during the LOF. There's no devil there if I'm not mistaken. And it seems unfair that God will be more severe on the many during the LOF compared to the Elect today, since God is the One that did the choosing, the enabling, etc.

But like I said this is probably not too important of a question, even not covered abundantly in Ray's papers it appears, so I'm fine for now knowing that there's no respect of persons with God, and we all (Elect or not) will be salted in with FIRE anyways (Mark 9:49).

God bless!
« Last Edit: December 24, 2012, 02:47:47 PM by Levy »
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Gina

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Re: Not easy for the Elect, and also not easy for the many
« Reply #22 on: December 24, 2012, 02:59:08 PM »

It does seem unfair how God makes vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor.  But who can bring a charge against God?

The main thing I'm learning to do is not find fault with God for the way He operates (shall we receive good from God and not evil?) and just shut my mouth (can you tell how incredibly difficult that is for me?)

When the elect get to their "resting" place, it is my hope they'll be too relaxed to so much as point their finger at the many (me?) or the world.  I would hate to have to turn around and bite it off.  haha!
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indianabob

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Re: Not easy for the Elect, and also not easy for the many
« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2012, 11:08:41 PM »

Hey Levy,
Simple answer to a valid question.
If the lake of fire is what we are experiencing now, in this life and if it is to be very similar for those who were not called, then the one thing I can imagine that would make it very tough on many would be a stubborn attitude and not being willing to accept correction without a fight, without resistance to the admonition of God.

Imagine a person who was very successful and took credit for their success due to all the hard work they put into it, to then be told that it was all vanity, all for nothing in the eyes of God. All their good works were as "filthy rags" to God.
Now that would BURN a persons view of themselves.

So my point is that it will be as tough as the individual makes it on themselves when they are forced to look in the mirror of their past life.

Please comment, Indiana bob
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levycarneiro

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Re: Not easy for the Elect, and also not easy for the many
« Reply #24 on: December 25, 2012, 12:20:58 AM »

Hey Levy,
Simple answer to a valid question.
If the lake of fire is what we are experiencing now, in this life and if it is to be very similar for those who were not called, then the one thing I can imagine that would make it very tough on many would be a stubborn attitude and not being willing to accept correction without a fight, without resistance to the admonition of God.

Imagine a person who was very successful and took credit for their success due to all the hard work they put into it, to then be told that it was all vanity, all for nothing in the eyes of God. All their good works were as "filthy rags" to God.
Now that would BURN a persons view of themselves.

So my point is that it will be as tough as the individual makes it on themselves when they are forced to look in the mirror of their past life.

Please comment, Indiana bob

Hello my friend,

I see your point, regarding the many being of a stubborn attitude during their lake of fire. But don't we have the same now...

"And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in {your} mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled {in...: or, by your mind in}" Colossians 1:21

...prior to God operating in us the opening of our understanding with His Spirit?

It'll be certainly though for the many during their lake of fire, at least for many christians, because they thought they would be saved by then. They will be in "shock". But this hardship we are experiencing now too, we are dying to our false religion of carnal religious works and coming into the light of our Lord's rest where the work is His not ours.

Just ramblings...
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levycarneiro

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Re: Not easy for the Elect, and also not easy for the many
« Reply #25 on: December 25, 2012, 12:28:27 AM »

When the elect get to their "resting" place, it is my hope they'll be too relaxed to so much as point their finger at the many (me?) or the world.  I would hate to have to turn around and bite it off.  haha!

That's how I see the Lord's rest too. The Elect become so relaxed, so truly knowing their God (God is love, for real) that they start loving people more, specially the "wicked" we used (or at least I used) to not love so much.
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Gina

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Re: Not easy for the Elect, and also not easy for the many
« Reply #26 on: December 25, 2012, 04:34:45 PM »

Well that was kind of a joke, Levy. 

God consigns us all up to disobedience (you break one law you're guilty of all) only that He may have m-e-r-c-y on all.  That's the only reason He consigns people up to disobedience. 

God chooses the WEAK things of the world to confound the wise.

I look at myself and I see God's blessings and mercy all through my life.  Every day, I am at work I try to remember to pray "God please be merciful to me.  I need this job and I don't want to be dependent on anyone.  Please help with me with my job.  I'm not that smart and you know it."  I'm telling you He has been so merciful to me and my children.  If a person isn't careful, they tend to get comfortable in their lives and forget about those less fortunate or look down their noses at them, and God said, Mmmm -- Not good -- you do that and you'll be cut off.  I grafted you in and I can un-graft you, just like that so you better keep a good assessment of yourself in the back of your mind at all times.

God says we need to work out our salvation with fear (awe) and trembling.  There's hardly a day that goes by that I'm not fearful of something.  Am I gonna have to go to the doctor and find out I have cancer, or this or that.  Am I gonna lose one of my children.  Am I gonna do something that causes me to wind up in jail?  So my main prayer is always, like the tax collector, God, please be merciful to me, a sinner! 

I have been the Pharisee looking down their nose at the tax collector too.  And I swear God has his hand on me.  It's not long before God says, you better watch your step girl!
« Last Edit: December 25, 2012, 06:45:49 PM by Game Over »
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Oatmeal

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Re: Not easy for the Elect, and also not easy for the many
« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2012, 07:48:09 AM »

I just want to ask. Does the fact that we've been called mean that we're automatically part of the elect. And here I am specifically referring to the few that have been chosen

It does digress or partly digresses from the main subject, and thus perhaps deserves its own thread, although the subject is related, but is there any answers to JohnChris’s question?

What is the point of discussing how much harder or easier it is/it is going to be for the elect/the many if one has not ascertained what category one fits into?  Is it not otherwise hypothetical nonsense and a simple tickling of our intellect and a discussion of vanity?
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From Micah 7:9:  By the grace and call of Yahweh I will bear the trials of the narrow way, because I have no love, until He fully shows me my sin and I am judged by Him.  He will bring me forth to the light, and I shall see His righteousness.

levycarneiro

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Re: Not easy for the Elect, and also not easy for the many
« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2012, 09:46:39 AM »

I just want to ask. Does the fact that we've been called mean that we're automatically part of the elect. And here I am specifically referring to the few that have been chosen

It does digress or partly digresses from the main subject, and thus perhaps deserves its own thread, although the subject is related, but is there any answers to JohnChris’s question?

I believe it would be a good idea to start another thread on this specific topic.

What is the point of discussing how much harder or easier it is/it is going to be for the elect/the many if one has not ascertained what category one fits into?  Is it not otherwise hypothetical nonsense and a simple tickling of our intellect and a discussion of vanity?

Yeah, it may be vanity.

My original personal question came up during a conversation I had with a friend in trying to show him the truth, and in the middle of it I thought of saying that "it's going to be harder later", but I wasn't 100% sure this is true, that's why I created this thread here.

Like I said above Ray didn't cover this subject and we know God is always love and fair, so maybe for now we can "rest" of this discussion :)

God bless you my brother
Levy
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Kat

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Re: Not easy for the Elect, and also not easy for the many
« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2012, 01:03:18 AM »

Kat
Quote
It is a privilege to be of the elect, there is no doubt about it, but it is not our decision to be one or not, they are 'elected' by God to be in that position. So you can and should rejoice in the hope of being an elect, but we can take no credit or boost for what we have been given.

I just want to ask. Does the fact that we've been called mean that we're automatically part of the elect. And here I am specifically referring to the few that have been chosen

Quote
a group of just a few being prepared to serve/help/rule in the kingdom to bring in the rest to salvation.

I didn't get the impression from Ray's teaching or from the Word that it was a foregone conclusion.
I know, Marques, I already hear you saying "Go back and read Ray's writings" lol

Sorry I didn't answer sooner, I've been away from home for a few days. What I was referring to is the "elect" in general, not someone in particular. Of course no one can know for certain if they are an elect or not (at least maybe not until the very end, like Paul seemed to know (2Tim 4:7)). But God does know who are His from before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4). So I believe the elect are being groomed all their lives, though they are unaware of it for most of their life and only have the hope when God is working through them. But whoever they are, they are guaranteed to be in the kingdom, even if they don't know for sure, because none of the elect will be lost.

John 10:28   "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
v. 29   "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of My Father's hand.

http://bible-truths.com/email12.htm#saved -----------

[Ray Replies]

Dear Margaret:

"How do we KNOW that we are saved?" Excellent question!  Would you believe that the Scriptures do not answer this specific question?  If they do, I am not aware of such an answer. The problem in answering this question is that you put it in the PAST TENSE--"How do we know that we ARE saved" which, I guess, could be in the past or present tense. Either way, I know of no Scripture that gives such an answer.

Here is what we do read regarding salvation:

"might save" "to save"  "shalt save" "save us" "shall be saved" "such as should be saved" "whereby we must be saved" "we shall be saved" "what must I do to be saved" etc., etc., etc.

And even those few verses that speak of "but unto us which ARE saved...." a closer look at the Greek shows that it is in the aiorist tense and should be translated "...which ARE BEING saved..." as it is not as yet a completed fact or act.

Even Ephesian 2:8 which states: "For by grace ARE you saved through faith...." which is properly translated with the word "are" than "are you being saved" or some other aiorist tense verb, still does not show that anyone is ALREADY saved. The phrase  "ARE saved" is telling us HOW we are saved, not WHEN we are saved. We "are" saved by grace just as people a century into the future also "ARE saved by grace." That's HOW they are saved, not WHEN.

If there were a verse that stated that we or anyone ARE or HAVE BEEN already saved, it would contradict many other Scriptures that show that salvation is an ongoing process.

This verse says it all:

"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same SHALL BE saved" (Matt. 24:13).

If this verse be absolutely true, can a statement that contradicts this statement of our Lord ALSO be true? Well, for example, "...he that shall NOT endure unto the end... ALSO be saved?"  See the contradiction?

Jesus says to him that OVERCOMES... seven time in Rev. 2 and 3. If the "overcoming" part is really not necessary, then why is it emphatically stated such SEVEN TIMES?

Is there a reason for not having a verse stating how one can know that they are absolutely SAVED [past tense] at some point in their lives?  I think so. We can NEVER STOP overcoming, striving, pressing on, following after, etc. We can have CONFIDENCE AND HOPE that we will be saved if we continue in our present total devotion to God, but never in this life can we say that we "ARE saved" already, in the past tense.

God has not, however, left us with assurances that we can absolutely bank on, if we follow His admonitions. Here is just one:

"And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; and to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brother kindness charity [LOVE]. For if these things be in you and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful... give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye DO THESE THINGS, YE SHALL NEVER FALL" (II Pet. 1:5-8 & 10).

God be with you,

Ray

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Oatmeal

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Re: Not easy for the Elect, and also not easy for the many
« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2012, 06:59:08 AM »

Thanks Levy for your explanation as to why you created this thread.

I see your point in that we need to be accurate when discussing things with others, and I now understand why the question came up.

I too had the feeling/thought/idea that it was better to "do it now", rather than "do it later" (or have it done later).

Oatmeal
« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 08:18:34 AM by Oatmeal »
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From Micah 7:9:  By the grace and call of Yahweh I will bear the trials of the narrow way, because I have no love, until He fully shows me my sin and I am judged by Him.  He will bring me forth to the light, and I shall see His righteousness.

indianabob

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Re: Not easy for the Elect, and also not easy for the many
« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2012, 11:15:45 PM »

Friend Kat,
Question please.
In the quote below did you mean to say exactly as the sentence indicates?

Your quote: "God has not, however, left us with assurances that we can absolutely bank on, if we follow His admonitions". Here is just one:

Bob asks: shouldn't that be stated as follows?
"God HAS, however, left us with assurances THAT we can absolutely bank on, if we follow His admonitions"

Thanks for any clarification,
Sincerely, Indiana bob
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Kat

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Re: Not easy for the Elect, and also not easy for the many
« Reply #32 on: December 28, 2012, 01:45:42 AM »


Hi Bob, that was a phrase from an email of Ray's that your question was about. But as I look at that more closely I think you are right about that having been a mistake that has slipped by.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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