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Babylon's contradictions
Craig:
Don't get your hopes up.
Craig
levycarneiro:
--- Quote from: Craig on December 21, 2012, 04:31:07 PM ---Don't get your hopes up.
Craig
--- End quote ---
I hear you. There's a whole lot to study for me to be better prepared on these occasions.
By reading Ray's emails I realize that knowing the basics of the Truth will lead you up to a point, and then more advanced questions or debates will be hard to answer, or you will go in circles trying to answer.
Ray on the other hand, went straight to the core of the questions, to a point where the detractor either learns something or just flat out denies the Scriptures.
Dave in Tenn:
Now that the questions answered, maybe it won't be inappropriate for me to kick back a bit and share something.
I went back to Memphis two or three weeks ago to visit Larry again. He's my old friend I'd mentioned visiting a few months ago. This time he told me he was 'almost a universalist'. He talks in paragraphs kinda like I do (when people in my life allow me to finish a sentence) and was drawing all sorts of square circles like that from this author or that book, which he could quote better than I can quote scripture. The book that had led him to this "position" was Love Wins.
Of course, it is still 'free-will' that is the hang up, so I'm not sure if it's "progress" being 'almost a universalist'. But at least he believes 'many' will be saved...almost all...to add to his belief that "Hell" is not an eternal torture pit. I knew I wasn't going to 'move him' on the Sovereignty of God. But I also knew he was planning to re-read the Bible next year. So mostly what I wanted to share with him was that it was possible to be 'scripturally conservative' (whatever that means) and BELIEVE the Word of God as a child--the declarative statements that explain the parables--to come to see truths. Also the need to shut up all those old theological voices ringing in our heads, an ability he may have that out-strips mine sometimes.
Of course, we talked about a lot more--serious and humorous. I was there about 12 hours. ;D And it wasn't all one-sided. He challenged me on many things as well.
Wasn't until the drive home that I got to thinking about that title--"Love Wins". I already knew I was a little leery of it simply because it's not a statement from Scripture, which to my way of thinking makes it a theological assumption, no matter how uplifing or 'true' it might be. As such, it demands 'testing'.
One basketball team may score 78 and the other 77 in triple-overtime and 'win'. But if points were people, 77 would loose. So what does Scripture say? "Love never fails". In a basketball game, the other team may dribble, may cross the center-line, may make many beautiful passes and handle the ball very entertainingly, take many shots--even look good playing defense. But if points are people, it never scores. Never. Not even a 110-3 record-breaking blow-out.
Anyway, in 12 hours I couldn't say everything even if I had been the only one talking. :D He needs a teacher just as I did. All the navel contemplating in the world only gets you so far with the Gospel. So he's got the link...even pulled it up on his I-phone or pad or notebook or whatever. He seems so close...and not just on a chin-stroking intellectual level. He really seems ready to believe. A lot of his "crushing" on a personal level has already taken place, as mine had. He mainly just needs to worship God and not that phantom 'free-will'. It's the sovereignty of God that INSURES the salvation of all. Larry's too. So I'm calm about it.
That is all. You may now return to the thread. ;D
Rhys 🕊:
Excellent Dave. I enjoyed reading that and well sneaked in.
Rhys
levycarneiro:
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on December 21, 2012, 10:06:54 PM ---Now that the questions answered, maybe it won't be inappropriate for me to kick back a bit and share something.
I went back to Memphis two or three weeks ago to visit Larry again. He's my old friend I'd mentioned visiting a few months ago. This time he told me he was 'almost a universalist'. He talks in paragraphs kinda like I do (when people in my life allow me to finish a sentence) and was drawing all sorts of square circles like that from this author or that book, which he could quote better than I can quote scripture. The book that had led him to this "position" was Love Wins.
Of course, it is still 'free-will' that is the hang up, so I'm not sure if it's "progress" being 'almost a universalist'. But at least he believes 'many' will be saved...almost all...to add to his belief that "Hell" is not an eternal torture pit. I knew I wasn't going to 'move him' on the Sovereignty of God. But I also knew he was planning to re-read the Bible next year. So mostly what I wanted to share with him was that it was possible to be 'scripturally conservative' (whatever that means) and BELIEVE the Word of God as a child--the declarative statements that explain the parables--to come to see truths. Also the need to shut up all those old theological voices ringing in our heads, an ability he may have that out-strips mine sometimes.
Of course, we talked about a lot more--serious and humorous. I was there about 12 hours. ;D And it wasn't all one-sided. He challenged me on many things as well.
Wasn't until the drive home that I got to thinking about that title--"Love Wins". I already knew I was a little leery of it simply because it's not a statement from Scripture, which to my way of thinking makes it a theological assumption, no matter how uplifing or 'true' it might be. As such, it demands 'testing'.
One basketball team may score 78 and the other 77 in triple-overtime and 'win'. But if points were people, 77 would loose. So what does Scripture say? "Love never fails". In a basketball game, the other team may dribble, may cross the center-line, may make many beautiful passes and handle the ball very entertainingly, take many shots--even look good playing defense. But if points are people, it never scores. Never. Not even a 110-3 record-breaking blow-out.
Anyway, in 12 hours I couldn't say everything even if I had been the only one talking. :D He needs a teacher just as I did. All the navel contemplating in the world only gets you so far with the Gospel. So he's got the link...even pulled it up on his I-phone or pad or notebook or whatever. He seems so close...and not just on a chin-stroking intellectual level. He really seems ready to believe. A lot of his "crushing" on a personal level has already taken place, as mine had. He mainly just needs to worship God and not that phantom 'free-will'. It's the sovereignty of God that INSURES the salvation of all. Larry's too. So I'm calm about it.
That is all. You may now return to the thread. ;D
--- End quote ---
Thanks for sharing, Dave.
I still think this is progress. Any step away from Babylon or lies is a step into the light, even if we are not going straight to the truth, but rather in "diagonal"-type movement. Or like a sailing boat traveling in diagonal but that will eventually get there :)
Advancing this thought a bit further, maybe we all do the same type of movement. I know I did: after Babylon, started first in learning Apocalipse studies from a "primarily-literal" author (completely all over the place, I can see it now), then to another author this time a Universal Reconciliation believer that was "primarily-physical" interpreter of the Scriptures (had some truth, but misses so many things), and since February or so this year (2012) I've been studying here from Ray's papers. In every one of these steps I learned something good and better than in Babylon, greatly and specially from God through Ray.
God bless!
Levy
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