RAY'S DEFAULT BIBLE

[Wonone]

After being disabused of some of A E Knoch's notions, my questions continue:
Did Ray have a default Bible? Did he have a 'preferred' Bible?

I need to settle onto a Bible as a starting point and as the reference point.
My journey so far: KJV to RSV to NIV to NASB to ESV and most recently CLV (Concordant Literal), with a sprinkling of various paraphrases anywhere in between. I know Ray did not hesitate to delve into Hebrew and Greek, but it appears he settled onto KJV as 'default'!? In general would like to probe the pros and cons of various translations.

PS Did he anywhere discuss the original manuscripts that underlie the various translations?
PPS I suspect the answers are there in various posts, but it is more fun and may be quicker, interacting with the Forum!

[Rhys 🕊]

Here is some stuff I found that might be useful:

From Ray's article - WHICH BIBLE TRANSLATION IS BEST?

However, not all English Versions perverted and corrupted the words having reference to time into words that now stand for eternity, but have nothing to do with time at all. Here are a few. I use the first three quite regularly, but, I am not recommending you buy any of them.

Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983 http://concordant.org/catalog/orderblank/index.html
The Emphatic Diaglott, 1912 edition (Greek/English Interlinear)
The Holy Bible in Modern English (Fenton), 1903)
The New Covenant, 1884
The New Testament in Modern Speech, 1910
The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, 1976
The New Testament of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, 1958
The New Testament a Translation, 1938
The Companion Bible, 1990 A King James Reference Bible

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,14489.msg128192.html#msg128192



http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3558.msg26610.html#msg26610

Dear Kevin:
I use a Nelson #1755 King James Bible for study and teaching.
I also recommend: The Concordant Literal Translation, Rotherham's Emphasized Bible,
and The Emphatic Diaglott.
Get e-Sword for you computer, and/or Strong's Expanded Exhaustive Concordance,
and Wigram's The Englishman's Hebrew and Greek Concordances.
And maybe a good Bible Dictionary. (I don't know of a good one, so just buy one).
That's all you need.
God be with you,
Ray

I use e-sword quite a lot and have recently got Rotherham and the concordant on it and find it quite useful especially to compare various versions. I quite like reading at the moment from Rotherdam and Young's literal translation. Don't like reading the ones that mention hell as most of them do.

Rhys

[Gina]

Wonone,

Ray, in his study on "How We Got the Bible"

Side note about Ray's Bible ---- King James, Nelson Bible

If you are looking to get a new Bible, I would recommend the one I've got here. It's cheap, I only paid 29 bucks for this. It's leather, red letter edition, so it has the words of Christ in red, it has headings on all the different things, like 'The Triumph Entry Into Jerusalem.' It has a heading, so you don't need to read twenty verses to find it, because there it is. Here it says, 'The Cleansing Of The Temple,' in Luke's account, then it tells you where to find the same thing in Matthew account - 21 and you find it in Mark - 11. It has that right above it and that's really handy.

It has this center reference column. There it gives you hundreds and hundreds of scriptures, where it will talk about cleansing the Temple. It has a little a, b or c in the verse, then you look over to the margin for the a, b, or c and it will say, see Jer. 6:4. You go to Jer. and you will read something about God cleansing the Temple. This way you can do a whole Bible study just using the center references. But when you buy this book you get it free. That's the work of theologians over 2 thousand years. For 2 thousand years theologians would say, 'wait I read something like that in Jer. or Isaiah.' So they would go back and start reading maybe 6 chapters to find it again and they would put a little notation in their Bible, see Isaiah 6:64. Well he spent 5 hours to find that. You have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds at your fingertips and you don't need to spend 2 minutes looking for them. These are marvelous aids.

This Book I have also has a small concordance in the back and one version has maps. There are lots of other things that make it so handy. It's something like 1200 pages of fine paper, it's gold leafed and leather. It's got all these little extra things. In Revelation if you want to find the church of Laodicea it has them all numbered. It has big headings that is so easy and quick to find. It's great. It has this little margin, I can put all the notes I want in just this little margin here, so it's big enough. This is good, the Bible I use to use cost right at $200 and to me I would sooner have this one.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5815.msg47182.html#msg47182

[Rhys 🕊]

PS Did he anywhere discuss the original manuscripts that underlie the various translations?

From one of Ray's email also found this:

Ray Hello,

            Are you reading the Received Text or another Greek version.  How about the Old Testament?

            How do we know the translators are translating correctly.  I if you have a chance please call me

            At ..................  I have many more questions that I would like to ask you.

            By His Grace,       

            Albert

             

            Dear Albert:

            There is no giant difference in most texts. Most translations from the oldest manuscripts compare all the best manuscripts in their Versions. I consult a dozen or more versions in my study, however, truth is not found in the "most perfect manuscript." The spiritual teaching is found in all manuscripts. The only really GIANT problem with most modern Versions is one of interpretation, not translation. There is no equivalent in either the Hebrew or Greek manuscripts to justify the use of such words as "for ever and ever," "everlasting/evermore," and "eternal." That's it!  Translate olam/aion/aionios properly, and ALL translations will contain the truths of God regardless as to whether some are better or more accurate than others.

For myself versions that mention hell and eternal including those above have given me a false sense of who God really is. We need to grasp the truth that Ray mentions here and I find it best to stay away from certain versions but they still make interesting reading that's why I like e-sword to compare and it's free which fits my price range just nicely.

Rhys

[Gina]

We only have copies of the originals manuscripts, so he couldn't discuss that topic.  But he does talk about How we got the bible, and that's a great study on audio and then someone (Kat, I think) transcribed it.  It's an awesome piece of work.  I highly recommend that.

Here is something I found that I agree with: 

Hi Kenny,

It is an error in logic to assume that the earliest manuscripts are more correct than manuscripts of a later date.

We do not have the original scriptures.  We have manuscripts that are copies of the originals.  Even the earliest manuscripts that we have were copied centuries after the originals were written.

Now the earliest manuscripts may be correct, that is, if they were accurately copied from copies of the originals.  On the other hand, the earliest copies could be in error if they were copied from copies that contained errors.  No human knows for sure.

No major truths can be affected by any differences in the manuscripts because it is the Spirit of God that leads us into all truths.

John [from Kentucky]

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11396.msg98582.html#msg98582

[Gina]

This might be of benefit re the topic of "original manuscripts." 

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=1449.0

I hope that helps.

Tah tah.

[Rhys 🕊]

Found this one too from Ray's emails. It might be of help.

how do you know all this stuff is right? its all so complicated and i believe in God but how do you know god is real and that satan wasnt ever good. There are so many versions of bibles that you cant be sure yours is correct. I'm not being a hater just wondering.


Dear Tim: I receive many emails in which people ask me to tell them how to solve all their problems or how to be happy or how to completely obey God or how to be healed or have all their prayers answered, etc. Not only can I not tell people how to do these things in an email, but I can't completely tell people how to do these things if I could spend a couple of weeks with them. "How do I know that God is real?" Many reason: All that is in creation is proof of a very very intelligent, wise, and powerful Creator. I also believe in the Scriptures. Why. That would take weeks to explain. I sometimes have prayers answers. Now that's not a normal thing to happen. There is so much profound knowledge in the Scriptures that I am totally convinced that muc h of it came from a supernatural source. What information and knowledge? That would take weeks. I write about virtually EVERY SUBJECT that anyone has ever brought up to me, so if you want to know what I know, READ THE MATERIAL ON OUR SITE!

Have you read it all? NO? Why not? Read and you will learn. Most "bibles" say the same things. Some miss-translate "aion/aionios," to "eternal," and this is not correct, but so what? I teach the correct way that these few wrongly translated words should be translated, and then the rest of your bible (which ever bible you have) will be just fine. I can show the Jehovah's Witnesses the truth of God from their own Bible. I use a King James, and I have not problem teaching the truths of God from it. Read, re-read, and study all of the material on our site, and if you truly desire to KNOW GOD AND HIS WORD, He will show you.
God be with you,
Ray


Rhys

[Wonone]

Thanks Rhys and Gina for all the references!
Great material!

Gina!
> I should have been more specific, thanks for correcting me, re 'original manuscripts'. Indeed we have copies only.
> Yes! 'No major truths can be affected by any differences in the manuscripts because it is the Spirit of God that leads us into all truths.'
> Ray's exchanges with Chuck we informative and most enjoyable reading!

Rhys!
> Rotheram's Bible on e-Sword!? It is not under 'Downloads'!? Where did you get it?

[Rhys 🕊]

Hi Lazar

Glad it's been of use to you.

Once you already have e-sword you need to go to:

http://www.biblesupport.com/

You will need to sign up. Then go to downloads and select e-sword downloads and go to bibles. Then scroll through them and you will find Rotherham. There's a couple of versions on there, 1 didn't work for me but the other did. Also a lot of other versions on there as well as other stuff you can download.

This link is useful to:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4470.0.html

Most links seem to worked that I checked but this one has nothing there now:

Bible Toolbox: over 25 Bible versions, commentaries, Greek study Lexicons and more.

http://711.net/bible.htm


God bless

Rhys

[Avidfisher]

  Have been studying Rays work for quite some time now and the only thing I see he missed, or maybe he didn't, is that Satan is also a metephor, a metephor for the carnal mind..

[Dave in Tenn]

  Have been studying Rays work for quite some time now and the only thing I see he missed, or maybe he didn't, is that Satan is also a metephor, a metephor for the carnal mind..

No, he didn't miss this issue and taught on it several times.  To say that Satan is a metaphor for our carnal minds is to break the logic of Scripture. 

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11604.0.html  and elsewhere.

[indianabob]

Hi Fisher,

I've been thinking on that as well. All I've come up with so far is the reference to spiritual powers in high places.
What if the Angels of God (messengers) are our protectors while the powers of Satan, however they work or are manifested, are the spiritual powers that lead humans with great power to corrupt the world so that events occur to lead the "world" into destruction? For example did God directly influence Pharaoh to resist God's will by hardening Pharaoh's heart or did a Satanic being do it. [I recognize that ALL is of God]
The example that comes to mind is the Book of Job and how Satan, a spirit with access to God, tested Job to teach Job a needed lesson. Did Satan seek that opportunity? Or did God choose the timing of the event in Job's life? Or was this title of Satan a metaphor for Job's carnal spirit?

Also if it is true that God does not tempt us directly, [we are drawn away by our own lust] then aren't we left with the need of an accuser of the brethren? A spiritual entity created for and assigned to tempt us. [according to God's intent]
How are we to understand the actions of the accuser or prosecutor of all people, especially of the brethren?

And all of this is leading to convicting us of our desperate need for God's spirit to lead us in everything.
Where has Ray addressed this issue?

Please comment everyone, Indiana Bob

[Kat]

Hi Bob,

What if the Angels of God (messengers) are our protectors while the powers of Satan, however they work or are manifested, are the spiritual powers that lead humans with great power to corrupt the world so that events occur to lead the "world" into destruction? For example did God directly influence Pharaoh to resist God's will by hardening Pharaoh's heart or did a Satanic being do it.

On this point we know through Scripture that it was God that actually hardened Pharaoh heart. Now that in and of itself was not to tempt him, but God was the cause (hardened his heart) for which Pharaoh would not let them go.

Exo 4:21  And Jehovah said to Moses, When you go to return into Egypt, see that you do all those wonders which I have put in your hand before Pharaoh; but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. (also Exo 7:3;14:4.17; 1Sa 6:6)

If the angels were directing all of human actions, then we would be but mere pawns like on a chess board. Humans play a big role in their own actions, even after the flood to wipe out the biggest part of wickedness, God still attest "the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth" (Gen 8:21). So man is carnal (given to sensual pleasures and appetites) all of his life, unless the Spirit of God intervenes. As you referenced this verse.

Jas 1:14  but each man is tempted, when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed.

Satan is a pawn though, an God can easily direct him, because he is one of the causes God uses, as Satan himself is made for a certain purpose. God sets up things, causes (Satan being just one of the infinite number of causes God uses) so we always go in the direction that He has determined. Satan however is the god of this age and therefore all carnal minded people are his subjects and of his domain.

2Co 4:4  in whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving ones, so that the light of the glorious gospel of Christ (who is the image of God) should not dawn on them.

Here is a section from an article that may help.

http://bible-truths.com/lake10.html --------------------------------------------

A FEW OF THE EVILS THAT GOD USES IN SAVING THE WORLD

The Scriptures assure us that God did not create things that had no purpose for existence in the first place. All that God created was "very good." God "created evil," how can evil be good? That sounds like something God Himself said that we should not say: "Woe unto them that call evil good..." (Isa. 5:20.)

First let me clarify that it is God Who says to US not to do this. In Gen. 1:31 it is God Who says:

"And God saw every thing that He had made ['I make peace, and create evil' Isa. 45:7] , and, behold, it was very good..."

Is this a contradiction? No, but it takes a bit of wisdom beyond childhood to properly understand it. God makes things that are "good," even "very good," that are not inherently good. That is, they are not good in and by themselves, but they are very good, in fact, PERFECT, for the purpose for which they were created.

Here are a few that existed before our parents sinned:

The spiritual weakness of Adam and Eve

Satan the serpent devil

No protection from the serpent devil

The Tree of the knowledge of good and EVIL

Nighttime and darkness

Human emotions of greed, lust, and vanity

God created all of these things, and yet not one of them is "good" in and by its self. Yet they are all perfectly good for the purpose for which they were created. But since they are not inherently good, they will all be changed or discarded after they have fulfilled their purpose. In the kingdom of God there will be no weakness, no insecurity, no devils, no night, no emotions of lust and vanity, and nothing ugly. All of the things that I listed are TEMPORARY tools that will be discarded when the human race is perfected.

Next, let's see a few of the evils that God Himself has used after Adam sinned:

"I create EVIL" (Isa. 45:7)

Out of God's mouth "proceeds...EVIL" (Lam. 3:38.)

"...an experience of EVIL has God given to the sons of man..." (Ecc. 1:13, Concordant Liter Old Testament.)

"...I [God] will raise up EVIL against thee..." (II Sam. 12:11.)

"...has not the Potter [God] the right... to make... one [vessel] for DISHONOR?" (Rom. 9:19-25.)

"I [God] created the waster to DESTROY" (Isa. 54:16.)

"The Lord has made...the WICKED for the day of EVIL" (Prov. 16:4.)

"...I [God] will bring EVIL from the north, and a great DESTRUCTION (Jer. 4:6.)

"...Hear, O earth: behold, I [God] will bring EVIL upon this people..." (Jer. 6:19.)

God told a "lying spirit" to "...go forth, and do so [lie]" (I Kings 22:22.)

"He [God] turned their heart to HATE His people..." (Psalm 105:25.)

"Behold I [God] frame EVIL against you..." (Jer. 18:11.)

"For God locks up all together in STUBBORNNESS [that's an evil]..." (Rom. 11:32.)

"O Lord, why have You MADE us TO ERR from your ways..." (Isa. 63:17.)

"...so shall the Lord bring upon you ALL EVIL THINGS..." (Josh. 23:15.)

"...shall there be EVIL in a city, and the Lord has not done it?" (Amos 3:6.)

"Yet He [God] is SCOURGING [severely beating] every son to whom He is receiving" (Heb. 12:5.)

"What? Shall we receive good at the hand of God and shall we not receive EVIL" (Job 2:10.)

"Thus saith the Lord of hosts... go and SMITE Amalek... DESTROY... SLAY both man and woman, infant and suckling..." (I Sam. 15:2-3.)

"...God shall send them strong DELUSION, that they should believe A LIE" (II Thes. 2:11.)

I do not take delight in presenting these Scriptures to you. They are hard sayings, for sure, but they are the truth; they are Scriptural; and they are all done by God; and they are "very good" in accomplishing the desired end result that God has planned from the beginning. God is justified in all that He does. All is out of love and for the advancement of turning every human creature into the very "Image of God."

Christian theology will not allow or tolerate the Scriptural teaching that God Himself created evil and uses evil continuously down through history and out into the prophetic future to accomplish His will.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[levycarneiro]

  Have been studying Rays work for quite some time now and the only thing I see he missed, or maybe he didn't, is that Satan is also a metephor, a metephor for the carnal mind..

No, he didn't miss this issue and taught on it several times.  To say that Satan is a metaphor for our carnal minds is to break the logic of Scripture. 

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11604.0.html  and elsewhere.

All leads to Satan being a spirit that greatly influences our carnal mind, but not being the carnal mind itself.

[Rhys 🕊]

Satan is very real as Kat mentions. The demonic attacks that I have been through agree with what Ray teaches. Good news is that God is in control and uses Satan as He has used him in my life. The church acts like is running a muck but that's wrong. I don't get everything that God is doing in me and His use of Satan in it but I do notice His work in making me like Christ which I can only thank Him for.

2Co 2:11  Lest we should be overreached by Satan, for, of his thoughts, we are not ignorant.

Sorry Lazar (Wonone) your topic has gone in a different direction, not helped by me of course.


Rhys

[Avidfisher]

  Have been studying Rays work for quite some time now and the only thing I see he missed, or maybe he didn't, is that Satan is also a metephor, a metephor for the carnal mind..

No, he didn't miss this issue and taught on it several times.  To say that Satan is a metaphor for our carnal minds is to break the logic of Scripture. 

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11604.0.html  and elsewhere.

Sorry not convinced, I was surprised however with the comparison of physical things with spiritual things.

[Kat]

Hi Avidfisher,

Here are a few places where Ray spoke on this.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1707.0.html ----

I am familiar with the "Satan is your carnal mind" theory. Just two Scriptures might help you understand this cannot be Scripturally true:

[1] Rev. 20:1-3--Is God really going to "bind the carnal mind of all mankind" for a thousand years, and then give it back to them once again?  If no one has a carnal mind (sinful nature) how could they become sinful once again, and only for a short season?

[2] I Cor. 5:5--How can our flesh (sinful nature) destroy our flesh (sinful nature)? This is in contradiction to our Lord's statments concerning "Satan casting out Satan" (Matt. 12:26).

ALL THE SCRIPTURES must agree.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11711.0.html -----------

Let's try that on for size:

"Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them" Job 1:6). So along with "the sons of God," there came "the CARNAL MIND."  Whose "carnal mind?"  Seriously, "WHOSE carnal mind?"

"And the LORD said unto the CARNAL MIND, Whence comest thou? Then the CARNAL MIND answered the LORD, and said...." (Job 1:7). Just who is this "carnal mind" which is speaking to God?

"And the LORD said unto the CARNAL MIND, Hast thou considered my servant Job...." (Job 1:08).

"Then the CARNAL MIND answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? (Job 1:9).

"And the LORD said unto the CARNAL MIND, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So the CARNAL MIND went forth from the presence of the LORD" (Job 1:12).

"And the CARNAL MIND answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.  But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.  And the LORD said unto the CARNAL MIND, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life. So went the CARNAL MIND forth from the presence of the LORD, and [the CARNAL MIND] smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown" Job 2:4-7).

That doesn't really work, does it?  Imagine that "the carnal mind" "smote Job with sore boils?  Oh really?  I didn't know the carnal mind could do that.
v
Let's try this one more time and see if your argument really works:

"Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.   Then the devil leaveth Him...." (Matt. 4:10-11).

COMMENT: "Are you sincerely questioning and/or asking me or anyone else to believe that what Jesus meant (in the "spirit") was: "Get you hence, MY CARNAL MIND: for it is written, THE CARNAL MIND shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only shall THE CARNAL MIND serve?  Then THE CARNAL MIND leaves Him...."

One more GIANT point.   If Jesus was referring to HIS OWN CARNAL MIND when He spoke to Satan, then we have Scriptural PROOF that Jesus had a carnal mind.

That then would mean that  "Because JESUS CHRIST is enmity [hatred] against God, for He is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can [He] be" (Rom. 8:7).

I don't think you want to go there, do you?


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7162.0.html ----------

It really doesn't matter one way or the other whether Eve heard the serpent speak, or a voice in her head, or a voice from the fruit itself. The point is, she was tempted to disobey God's commandments, and she did disobey. Now then, let's use our mind for just a minute. If Eve's carnal mind told her to disobey God, then a few verses later we would have God Himself, first talking to Adam, then to Eve, and then to Eve's carnal mind. God would then put a curse on Eve's carnal mind, and tell Eve that her carnal mind would eat dust for the rest of her life. In addition, there would be enmity between Eve's carnal mind and the woman, and the seed of Eve's carnal mind, and Eve's seed, and Eve's seed would bruise the head of Eve's carnal mind, and Eve's seed would bruise HIS(?) heel. All of a sudden Eve's carnal mind became a "HE." It just doesn't fit, does it.

Better to just accept the Scriptures as they are written until an alternative can be Scripturally proven.
-----------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[onelovedread]

Maybe the Satan carnal mind issue should be dealt with in a different thread?

[Avidfisher]

Thank you Kat for the friendly honest reply, I will leave it at that and let you all get back to your discussion, have fun you all.

[Wonone]

Rhys!
> I was able to get Rotherham Emphasised Bible and The Emphatic Diaglott NT (1942), plus a number of others. Am a happy man! Thank you bro!
> That hijacking was a good trip! Some of these perspectives taught by Ray, literally take time to sink in. It takes some time to turn a ship around. Above all, I have come to see it all as being in God's watertight control! And God is Love!!!

Kat!
It was good to be again reminded of the overwhelming Scriptural evidence for God's use of the evil!
First time I heard it, I was not comfortable. Now I see it as 'just right'! All 'evil' works for a grand and glorious end, a 'designer label' end. And we are all on a 'designer label' journey! And it is truly revolutionary to see the world and the events in the world from that perspective. Even when we do not see, Love is at work. It is peace generating and fear conquering.

I do have another, somewhat related question (not so much WHO but, WHAT AM I?), but I will start it under a new thread..