Topic: Killing/Murder (Read 18836 times)

Shawn Fainn · « **on:** February 05, 2013, 10:14:59 AM »

Anyone have any links to where Ray possibly expounded on the difference between killing and murder? The link below was the only one I could find.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1908.msg15785.html#msg15785 :

Quote

Dear Ray,

Why did God command Israel to murder in the OT despite the commandment "Thou Shall Not Kill"? Didnt Jesus say, "love your enemies"?

Thanks for everything, God has truly blessed me through your site. Hope to hear from you soon God bless.

Joed

Dear Joed:
You have it completely backwards: God commanded Israel to "kill" their enemies, however, the seventh commandment is "thou shalt not MURDER." The same holds for the New Tesament commandment (Matt. 5:21). The translators didn't quite get that one right. God used his physical nation of Israel to Judge the heathens in the land of Canaan, where as in the future God will use his Spiritual Nation of Israel to Judge the whole world system of Babylon the Great.
God be with you,
Ray

Thanks!

Gina · « **Reply #1 on:** February 05, 2013, 01:12:18 PM »

That's clear enough for me. I love it.

eggi · « **Reply #2 on:** February 05, 2013, 02:14:25 PM »

Hi,

I'm not sure if I "love this". I just can't see why I would have any reason to KILL (not murder) people. I don't feel the urge to fight in a war for example. I don't think we should do that.

God bless you,
Eirik

Dave in Tenn · « **Reply #3 on:** February 05, 2013, 02:42:25 PM »

Eggi, the New Covenant is not in accord with the Old.

Still, everyone does what is right in their own eyes and the Lord judges the heart.

Gina · « **Reply #4 on:** February 05, 2013, 03:11:32 PM »

Quote from: eggi on February 05, 2013, 02:14:25 PM

Hi,

I'm not sure if I "love this". I just can't see why I would have any reason to KILL (not murder) people. I don't feel the urge to fight in a war for example. I don't think we should do that.

God bless you,
Eirik

Give it time.

We're talking about it in the spiritual sense, not the literal sense.

Gina · « **Reply #5 on:** February 05, 2013, 03:13:53 PM »

And I only meant that I love the way that Ray brought out the truth of that matter. What kind of a sick human being loves killing other human beings? Sometimes it's necessary and totally justified, whether we like it or not.

eggi · « **Reply #6 on:** February 05, 2013, 03:30:54 PM »

Gina, I know what you meant. What I meant is that I'm not convinced that we Christians should kill, for any reason.
God alone can give and take life, that's how I feel.

Gina · « **Reply #7 on:** February 05, 2013, 03:36:19 PM »

What's that verse about, He will slay them with the sword of His mouth? Well, that's all this is talking about. I mean, seriously, would you not spiritually slay the Hagees of this world if it stopped the filth they spew from the pulpits, knowing it saves other people's spiritual lives -- knowing that the Hagees would be healed and saved eventually and LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS? I would. In a heartbeat. But I understand where you're coming from, Eggi. You're such a fine human being, and I just absolutely adore you.

eggi · « **Reply #8 on:** February 05, 2013, 03:45:39 PM »

Love you Gina, you're so right! Spiritually slaying in order to give life, now that's something else!

God bless you,
Eirik

indianabob · « **Reply #9 on:** February 05, 2013, 07:48:35 PM »

Dear friends eggi and "shorty",

Interesting thoughts.
We only have the ability to slay a person spiritually after God has begun the process and after the person has 'volunteered' to submit to our efforts. We are not in the business of convicting people of the rightness of what we have first been given by God.
They are the same as we once were. Lost and ignorant of the means toward salvation.

As far as I presently understand we do not have authority from God to slay anyone, spiritually or physically. That authority has to be delegated to an individual by one with the authority to delegate, Lord Jesus. I don't see that happening in this physical life.
Please refer me to an article by Ray or from scripture that authorizes us.

Thanks for the interesting topic and for any counsel you can provide.

Kindly offered, Indiana Bob

Gina · « **Reply #10 on:** February 05, 2013, 08:33:33 PM »

Maybe not physically, but then again, maybe we do --

1 Cor. 5:5

To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus

Gina · « **Reply #11 on:** February 05, 2013, 08:40:36 PM »

But wait, there's more:

Luke 19:

The Parable of the Ten Minas

11While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once.

12He said: “A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return.

13So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas.a ‘Put this money to work,’ he said, ‘until I come back.’

14“But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, ‘We don’t want this man to be our king.’

15“He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it.

16“The first one came and said, ‘Sir, your mina has earned ten more.’

17“‘Well done, my good servant!’ his master replied. ‘Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.’

18“The second came and said, ‘Sir, your mina has earned five more.’

19“His master answered, ‘You take charge of five cities.’

20“Then another servant came and said, ‘Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth.

21I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.’

22“His master replied, ‘I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow?

23Why then didn’t you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?’

24“Then he said to those standing by, ‘Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.’

25“‘Sir,’ they said, ‘he already has ten!’

26“He replied, ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away.

27But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”

(note: Because this is a parable, I don't believe for a second this is a literal killing at all. )

darren · « **Reply #12 on:** February 06, 2013, 04:46:09 AM »

Thou shall not murder. Not thou shall not kill. Am I'm splitting hairs? maby. If one finds him or herself that has to kill in order to save one self or loved ones form people who want to murder them i would say most would not blink an eye or think twice about killing some one if you and yours were in interment danger of being murder. Of course I only can speak of myself for sure. but I do suspect that most would kill in order to save their loved ones. Sorry I can not speak on the spiritual side of this matter I am not qualified.

Darren

cherokee · « **Reply #13 on:** February 06, 2013, 09:13:23 AM »

Here is another email quote from Ray that may help.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6893.msg55008.html#msg55008

Quote

COMMENT: You do not understand the 6th commandment. It does not say "Thou shalt not KILL" in the Hebrew manuscripts. It says, "Thou shalt not MURDER." Big big difference. Soldiers kill in war, they do not murder. Murder is the illegal killing of someone. When God told the Israelite to kill all of the pagans which were committing every conceivable kind of crime including burning the little children in fire, He was not telling them to commit sin. It was not a sin to kill these people at God's command, because they were not "murdering" them which would have been breaking God's commandment and which then would have been a contradiction.

arion · « **Reply #14 on:** February 06, 2013, 10:46:19 AM »

I served in the military for 13 years and I always prayed that I would never have to take a life and I didn't. I took an oath to defend the constitution and with that the second amendment and as long as that doesn't compromise my walk with God I will continue to do so. I have a concealed pistol license and because of my job I am constantly armed. Although I am fully capable of taking a life it continues to be my prayer that I am never in the position where I have to do so.

However, I find myself changing on these issues in the last few years as God leads me. Under the old testament it was lawful to take a life for various reasons.

I.E.
Exo 22:2 If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him.

And yet we are no longer living under the old covenant but the new covenant. We know that the law is a hard taskmaster and that if we are truly in Christ we are no longer under the law. There are a few things in the New Testament that give us some hints as to what may happen to us as we progress in Christ.

Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Luk 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

(If I kill my enemies then how am I loving them?)

Jas 5:6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.

That last one is a big ouch. And then we have this question from Jesus....

Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

I 'fear' that in the future I am going to be lead to totally get rid of all of my weapons in order to walk these scriptures out. I am capable and trained to take a life but where I am at right now the only way I could is if someone was actively attempting to take my life or the life of an innocent other and if there was any way to absolutely avoid taking that life ( running away, ect) I would do so even if the law would allow me to take that life. This is all still a work in progress for me.

Kat · « **Reply #15 on:** February 06, 2013, 11:09:14 AM »

Well sometimes I think that question 'what would Jesus do' is the best answer in many situations.

We need to remember that there is no situation that we will find our self in, that God is not right there with us.

Acts 17:27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

So no matter what dangerous a situation we may find our self in, do we believe that we have to take matters into our own hands because God can not or will not help us? There has to be trust in this 'all powerful' God that we claim to serve and obey.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

indianabob · « **Reply #16 on:** February 06, 2013, 11:48:34 AM »

Well said Arion and Kat,

This is a difficult subject and benefits from much personal meditation on the part of each of us.
Learning to trust God fully is not possible in this life, but is a goal toward which we struggle.
I have been a police officer and do hold a carry permit, however what I have noticed as I get older is that my .45 ACP stays locked up away from children's curious eyes & fingers and from my own weakened fingers since I have arthritis and can't always operate the slide to load a cartridge.

I have seriously contemplated what I would be able to do if awakened in the night by an intruder and my most recent feeling is that I would pray quietly, "Father I believe, help thou my unbelief"

Ole Indiana Bob

Gina · « **Reply #17 on:** February 06, 2013, 01:07:33 PM »

I don't own any guns, never have. I just don't like them for myself. I can see an intruder coming through my door and me freaking out and fumbling to get my gun and then shooting myself in the foot (or God forbid, shooting but missing my target, and inadvertently killing an innocent bystander. Don't really want that hanging over my head. Or... I'd get the intruder who would turn around and sue me (and win!) for being injured in my home. Injured? Yes. Because I just don't think I could shoot to kill. But I'd have no problem making his voice seven or eight octaves higher. lol ) I see why police have to have guns and weapons (they don't carry the sword for nothing). But we're getting totally sidetracked here. Ray was juxtaposing the physical with the spiritual. First the physical, then the spiritual.

arion · « **Reply #18 on:** February 06, 2013, 06:09:18 PM »

Tis a conundrum as with many things one can argue both sides of the question. What I do know is that God is doing a work in us all and we are not where we were at spiritually 5 years ago and 5 years from now if we are still around we will not be where we are at spiritually now if God is working in us. Five years ago I would of answered some of these things much differently.

We do have responsibilities to provide for our own and protecting our spouse (if your male) and your children are parental responsibilities. Even for the women I doubt if there is a female on this forum that if a man broke into your house to rape your daughter or molest your son that you would do everything in your power to stop him up to and including deadly force if it was called for. I do know that where I am at right now is that even if it was lawful for me to take a life and even if it was permissible under the scriptures I sure wouldn't want that on my conscience.

HoneyLamb56 · « **Reply #19 on:** February 07, 2013, 02:03:49 PM »

I just happened to be reading Exodus 20/21 about laws concerning violence. And there is somewhere in OT about someone killing in self defence and a place of refuge for a determined time. Can see how the basis for our judicial system started.

This aside, my opinion is that someone of sound mind who premeditates taking a life (murder); someone whom God gave over to a depraved mind (murder); someone mentally delusional, although may be premeditated (killing); to have a military is an act of defence against aggressors (killing); most people of sound mind do not want to kill but must do so in an act of self defence; God has molded us the way we are and in the end he will deal with us, as only he knows the true intent of our minds and hearts. Just keep praying that he will lead us to the right action when encountering a confrontational situation.

bible-truths.com/forums

News:

Author Topic: Killing/Murder (Read 18836 times)

Shawn Fainn

Gina

Gina

Gina

Gina

Gina

Gina

darren

cherokee

Kat

Gina