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Author Topic: Did God forsake His Son in His last moments?  (Read 21533 times)

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thewatchman

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Re: Did God forsake His Son in His last moments?
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2013, 04:27:43 AM »

Watchman,

The way you phrased what you said makes it look as if Jesus was praying to Himself, ,,,why have You forsaken Me?".  Jesus wasn't praying to Himself, He was praying the words the Father God caused Him to pray to the Father.  Jesus is not His own Father.  Yes, the Father and the Son are one, but think of it like an Orchestra -- there's one company of musicians made up of many members.

(Did you love that Enigma paper?   I did.)

Gina

Yet John 5 says no-one has seen or heard of the Father.
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newgene87

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Re: Did God forsake His Son in His last moments?
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2013, 05:40:06 AM »

Watchman,

The way you phrased what you said makes it look as if Jesus was praying to Himself, ,,,why have You forsaken Me?".  Jesus wasn't praying to Himself, He was praying the words the Father God caused Him to pray to the Father.  Jesus is not His own Father.  Yes, the Father and the Son are one, but think of it like an Orchestra -- there's one company of musicians made up of many members.

(Did you love that Enigma paper?   I did.)

Gina

Yet John 5 says no-one has seen or heard of the Father.

a little misquote there isnt it??? "...ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape." (5:37) how does that refer to "no on" heard of the Father??
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mharrell08

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Re: Did God forsake His Son in His last moments?
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2013, 05:44:00 AM »

Exactly.  Why say it if it weren't true? 

Isaiah 54:8 In a surge of anger I hid my face from you for a little while. But with everlasting  love I will have compassion on you," says the LORD, your Redeemer.

It was only for a little while.  I don't know if this verse is any help, but if God the Father was angry, He wasn't angry with Jesus because Jesus didn't do anything deserving of God's wrath.  But I imagine if it is true, God was angered by what He had to witness was happening to His Son.  I don't think He wanted to forsake Him but He had to in order for death to come.  But it was only for a little while. And of course, we all know that He redeemed Jesus from the grave.

My 2 cents.


That verse is referencing Israel, not Christ. Jesus was never forsaken.

John 8:29  The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him

"And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son" (Matt 2:15) ="When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son" (Hosea 11:1) ---Now Matthew has some explaining to do....or he doesnt cause he understand a principle....

Just as i said once before, "Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind" (Rom 14:5)

Eugene, Matthew's passage has nothing to do with Isaiah 54...you're confusing the issue.


Again, thanks Shorty. That Isaiah 54 is just another scripture i never saw before, and using Paul and the Apostle's hermeneutics: there are alot of Scripture that Christ can "open our understanding" on and see it's applies to Christ.

thanks for everyone's viewpoint. thanks alot, i really appreciate it

Eugene

Eugene, if you really cared about hermeneutics in regards to Paul and the apostles, you wouldn't ignore their words when explaining the very passage you falsely claim as representing Christ. The very first verse in Isaiah 54 should be all we need to realize who is being spoken to and more importantly by Whom:

Isaiah 54:1  “Sing, O barren, You who have not borne! Break forth into singing, and cry aloud, You who have not labored with child! For more are the children of the desolate Than the children of the married woman,” says the Lord.

Paul himself quotes this very verse and explains the symbolism:

Gal 4:21-27  Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, which things are symbolic.

For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written: “Rejoice, O barren, You who do not bear! Break forth and shout, You who are not in labor! For the desolate has many more children Than she who has a husband.”


Notice Paul's words: "corresponds to Jerusalem". Not Christ. Further proof within Isaiah 54:

Isaiah 54:4  "Do not fear, for you will not be ashamed; Neither be disgraced, for you will not be put to shame; For you will forget the shame of your youth, And will not remember the reproach of your widowhood anymore.

So through hermeneutics, we learn that Christ will 'forget the SHAME of His youth' and the 'REPROACH of His widowhood'? When has Christ ever been associated with shame and widowhood? This is what happens when we attempt to find scriptures to fit our pet theories instead of actually READING what the scriptures say.

Getting back to 'shame and widowhood'...who do we read of having these type of negative qualities?

Rev 18:4-8  And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her.

In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart, ‘I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.’ Therefore her plagues will come in one day—death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her.


It is a WOMAN being spoken to in Isaiah 54, symbolically. This WOMAN has the same attributes as the symbolic WOMAN in Revelation 18. That is what you would call a SPIRITUAL MATCH. Both these women refer to Israel aka the church, all groups of people who claim to serve the True Living God but spread false doctrine in His name.

You do not get a spiritual match from one verse referencing Christ as Israel and then assuming EVERY verse talking about Israel is talking about Christ. That's how you get crazy ideas like the Father forsaking His Son and other such nonsense.

Notice in the same passage of Isaiah 54 the Lord speaking of displaying His WRATH in turning away ('With a little wrath I hid My face from you for a moment' - Isa 54:8 ). Do we really need to go through all Ray's studies about how the Father never brought His wrath onto His Son?

And to top it all off, a few members mentioned the 'Solving the Enigma of God' paper...that paper explains WHO was actually speaking to who in Isaiah 54. It is Jehovah speaking to Israel. And if you have read this paper, you understand that Jehovah is 'Jesus Saves'. So it is Christ speaking, and not to Himself but to His people about where they've been spiritually and where they're going spiritually.


Marques
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Gina

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Re: Did God forsake His Son in His last moments?
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2013, 05:45:16 AM »

I know exactly where my problem is coming from now.  I thought about it all day.  If this passage is not spurious, then it means that as Jesus hung on the cross dying and feeling very abandoned (that is, assuming He was feeling abandoned and not simply pretending -- the way He pretended with His disciples at one point), it means He was feeling abandoned by the Father.  But since some believe He wasn't actually abandoned by His father, then he must've been delusional at that point.  Because to say one thing in direct opposition to what was actually taking place would mean that Jesus was not speaking the truth.  But the Word of God doesn't contradict. 

I guess it's frightening also to think that our Lord had DOUBTS -- much like John the Baptist -- at least, in my mind that's the way it sounds -- or like Mary "Lord if you had been here my brother would not have died."  (Jesus was directed by the Father to purposely forsake Mary and her brother Lazarus for days so that Lazarus could die, in order that Jesus could bring Him back to life!)

But anyway...  I don't think that Jesus was delusional and I don't think that He had any doubt.
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darren

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Re: Did God forsake His Son in His last moments?
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2013, 05:47:55 AM »

  Did or did not GOD forsake His Son Jesus? We know according to Scripture Jesus did make the statement. Do we have scripture that tells us one way or the other if God forsaken His only Son Jesus? If not, then we are just speculating according to ones own belief.

Thanks.













d
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Ian 155

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Re: Did God forsake His Son in His last moments?
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2013, 06:50:16 AM »

Deu 31:6  Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.

Do You believe the scriptures -

Heb 13:5  Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Do You believe the scriptures -

To Us ignoramuses we should not attempt to despise his word and to show ourselves knowledgeable, but when we speak things we do not know this borders on heresy

YES even in Death he goes with you HE NEVER LEAVES YOU NOR FAILS YOU NOR FORSAKES YOU

WE all come to the point where it SEEMS like this God Has Forsaken us

BUT WHAT SAY THE SCRIPTURES

AGAIN  - DO YOU BELIEVE

pleasure
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thewatchman

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Re: Did God forsake His Son in His last moments?
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2013, 08:11:18 AM »

Watchman,

The way you phrased what you said makes it look as if Jesus was praying to Himself, ,,,why have You forsaken Me?".  Jesus wasn't praying to Himself, He was praying the words the Father God caused Him to pray to the Father.  Jesus is not His own Father.  Yes, the Father and the Son are one, but think of it like an Orchestra -- there's one company of musicians made up of many members.

(Did you love that Enigma paper?   I did.)

Gina

Yet John 5 says no-one has seen or heard of the Father.

a little misquote there isnt it??? "...ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape." (5:37) how does that refer to "no on" heard of the Father??

A little paraphrase that does not change the words nor meaning of the scripture. No-one had ever seen direct evidence of the Father. The only evidence that we have that the Father ever existed is Jesus himself. It was Jesus in the cool of the garden, Jesus at the cleft of the rock. Yet everyone who doesn't understand their relationship which is infinite are always trying to separate the 2 with finite understanding, while Jesus himself said they are one. We know him as Jesus because he manifested himself before us like that. Before, he was EL. He couldn't turn up before us like that or we would be consumed, but always himself.
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Kat

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Re: Did God forsake His Son in His last moments?
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2013, 10:27:58 AM »


Hi thewatchman,

I think of it like this, the Father and Son are in perfect Oneness with each other in Spirit and Mind. We will always know Jesus Christ as a figure that has the highest position in/of this creation, only the Father exceeds Him. But Jesus being in the perfect 'image' of the Father does not make Him the Father, can't be, because the Father is His source of power. Another thing is whatever the Father has learned or developed or whatever before this creation, Jesus Christ was not there from eternity. The Father is eternal and Jesus Christ is not, so Jesus does not have all the background experience (whatever that might be) that the Father does. Jesus Christ recognizes the Father as His God. So there is a difference in them.


Gina, let me just add another thought. Jesus was suffering intensely from all He had been through, He was at the point of death and was ready to proceed to that... He was making a rhetorical comment to His Father, I think He was saying why am I lingering, why won't you just finish this for My sake (all the sufferings He was enduring). So He was not saying why have You forsaken/left/abandon Me... He just wanted the suffering to end and was asking the Father to carry this on through and He (the Father) certainly heard Him and did end it.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Did God forsake His Son in His last moments?
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2013, 05:25:10 PM »

Excuse me for the pun here but..

Marques nailed it!

The Son was not forsaken by His Father nor did He have any doubts of why He came, who He was or what He was to do.

To add to what John said, this is a bad spirit to be taking on.

God bless,

Alex
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Ian 155

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Re: Did God forsake His Son in His last moments?
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2013, 05:43:08 PM »

OK forgive me but I am inclined to see the whole event as a parable -

where we become helpless,scorned ,spat on, where we have our hands nailed down and cannot use them [works ] we have our feet nailed down and cannot walk -  our gut [side] is torn, we are helpless and no works can save us, we are then raised up as sons of the living God,and walk in power as did Jesus, I see the scripture Jesus screamed 'why have you forsaken me' but is this not the route we all go on ? then the power of the living God causes us to rise up ?

I gave 2 witnesses earlier and cannot find any witness for God Forsaking his plan .... or have I totally lost it ??

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thewatchman

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Re: Did God forsake His Son in His last moments?
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2013, 10:22:16 PM »


Hi thewatchman,

I think of it like this, the Father and Son are in perfect Oneness with each other in Spirit and Mind. We will always know Jesus Christ as a figure that has the highest position in/of this creation, only the Father exceeds Him. But Jesus being in the perfect 'image' of the Father does not make Him the Father, can't be, because the Father is His source of power. Another thing is whatever the Father has learned or developed or whatever before this creation, Jesus Christ was not there from eternity. The Father is eternal and Jesus Christ is not, so Jesus does not have all the background experience (whatever that might be) that the Father does. Jesus Christ recognizes the Father as His God. So there is a difference in them.


Gina, let me just add another thought. Jesus was suffering intensely from all He had been through, He was at the point of death and was ready to proceed to that... He was making a rhetorical comment to His Father, I think He was saying why am I lingering, why won't you just finish this for My sake (all the sufferings He was enduring). So He was not saying why have You forsaken/left/abandon Me... He just wanted the suffering to end and was asking the Father to carry this on through and He (the Father) certainly heard Him and did end it.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

I don't agree Kat. I think that misunderstands the relationship. I believe that Jesus created it all. God is spirit and the power he used to do it. He was there from before the beginning. NOT a lesser carbon copy. But Psalms calls him prince of peace AND everlasting father.....certainly the only father we have ever seen
« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 01:53:29 AM by thewatchman »
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Did God forsake His Son in His last moments?
« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2013, 03:08:07 AM »


Hi thewatchman,

I think of it like this, the Father and Son are in perfect Oneness with each other in Spirit and Mind. We will always know Jesus Christ as a figure that has the highest position in/of this creation, only the Father exceeds Him. But Jesus being in the perfect 'image' of the Father does not make Him the Father, can't be, because the Father is His source of power. Another thing is whatever the Father has learned or developed or whatever before this creation, Jesus Christ was not there from eternity. The Father is eternal and Jesus Christ is not, so Jesus does not have all the background experience (whatever that might be) that the Father does. Jesus Christ recognizes the Father as His God. So there is a difference in them.


Gina, let me just add another thought. Jesus was suffering intensely from all He had been through, He was at the point of death and was ready to proceed to that... He was making a rhetorical comment to His Father, I think He was saying why am I lingering, why won't you just finish this for My sake (all the sufferings He was enduring). So He was not saying why have You forsaken/left/abandon Me... He just wanted the suffering to end and was asking the Father to carry this on through and He (the Father) certainly heard Him and did end it.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

I don't agree Kat. I think that misunderstands the relationship. I believe that Jesus created it all. God is spirit and the power he used to do it. He was there from before the beginning. NOT a lesser carbon copy. But Psalms calls him prince of peace AND everlasting father.....certainly the only father we have ever seen

I wasn't following the exchange between you and kat very well watchman but do you believe that Jesus is the Father? Jesus is His own Father?
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Ian 155

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Re: Did God forsake His Son in His last moments?
« Reply #32 on: February 25, 2013, 06:46:11 AM »

Mar 12:29  And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Mar 12:30  And thou shalt love the Lord thy God .....
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thewatchman

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Re: Did God forsake His Son in His last moments?
« Reply #33 on: February 25, 2013, 08:24:33 AM »


Hi thewatchman,

I think of it like this, the Father and Son are in perfect Oneness with each other in Spirit and Mind. We will always know Jesus Christ as a figure that has the highest position in/of this creation, only the Father exceeds Him. But Jesus being in the perfect 'image' of the Father does not make Him the Father, can't be, because the Father is His source of power. Another thing is whatever the Father has learned or developed or whatever before this creation, Jesus Christ was not there from eternity. The Father is eternal and Jesus Christ is not, so Jesus does not have all the background experience (whatever that might be) that the Father does. Jesus Christ recognizes the Father as His God. So there is a difference in them.


Gina, let me just add another thought. Jesus was suffering intensely from all He had been through, He was at the point of death and was ready to proceed to that... He was making a rhetorical comment to His Father, I think He was saying why am I lingering, why won't you just finish this for My sake (all the sufferings He was enduring). So He was not saying why have You forsaken/left/abandon Me... He just wanted the suffering to end and was asking the Father to carry this on through and He (the Father) certainly heard Him and did end it.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

I don't agree Kat. I think that misunderstands the relationship. I believe that Jesus created it all. God is spirit and the power he used to do it. He was there from before the beginning. NOT a lesser carbon copy. But Psalms calls him prince of peace AND everlasting father.....certainly the only father we have ever seen

I wasn't following the exchange between you and kat very well watchman but do you believe that Jesus is the Father? Jesus is His own Father?



No I don't. I believe that the only father we have seen in this dispensation of creation has been Jesus. But if he and the Father are one then why do we try to understand his relationship with his father like birthing a son in our way/ If God IS spirit, then this is not possible. That is just small and finite thinking. Everything was created through Jesus. If he has a father outside of time then we will never comprehend that relationship. But as far as Fathership and we are concerned. He is our father and that's all we need concern ourselves with.
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dave

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Re: Did God forsake His Son in His last moments?
« Reply #34 on: February 25, 2013, 01:16:49 PM »

I do not quite understand the "my God, my God," in Matt. and Mark but I believe I understand those words coming from David wondering why God seemed not present at that time.
Jesus was prophesying those words from David to those around Him, they could not see that He was their God and He spoke "why have you(those there,) why have you forsaken me."

At least in that way I can understand, maybe. Where I never understood that verse at all before.
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wat

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Re: Did God forsake His Son in His last moments?
« Reply #35 on: February 25, 2013, 04:54:44 PM »

Marques and John are right on point.  I'd also like to add Psalm 22:24.

"For he has not despised or abhorred the affliction of the afflicted, and he has not hidden his face from him, but has heard, when he cried to him." (ESV)
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santgem

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Re: Did God forsake His Son in His last moments?
« Reply #36 on: February 26, 2013, 04:00:38 AM »

John 12: 29 The Father gave Me commandments what I speak and say.
John 14:10  The Father that dwells in Me, He does the works.
John 14:24  The word that you hear is not Mine but the Father’s
.

With that,  GOD did not forsake His Son Jesus!
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eagle

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Re: Did God forsake His Son in His last moments?
« Reply #37 on: February 26, 2013, 08:07:15 PM »

"...My God my God why hast thou forsaken me"

The word that is translated "forsaken" is the greek "egkataleipō",
which is made up of the two words "en" and  "kataleipo"
"kataleipo" in Strongs definition means: "to leave"
 Could it be that the question Jesus asks " My God my God, why has thou left me"  He himself answers in  the Scriptures ?

Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave (kataleipo) his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh

Is there a spritual match in the New  Testament?

Ephesians 5:31-32  For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Since the other posters have written their opinion, I thought I could too, so I just did :)
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dave

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Re: Did God forsake His Son in His last moments?
« Reply #38 on: February 27, 2013, 01:47:07 AM »

I do not quite understand the "my God, my God," in Matt. and Mark but I believe I understand those words coming from David wondering why God seemed not present at that time.
Jesus was prophesying those words from David to those around Him, they could not see that He was their God and He spoke "why have you(those there,) why have you forsaken me."

At least in that way I can understand, maybe. Where I never understood that verse at all before.

Once one considers and realizes that Jesus was quoting Psa. 22, speaking the prophecy as the way the Messiah must die, and not having dialouge or asking a question, it must become clear as to what was recorded. Jesus, Jehovah, the Lord God, was NEVER in anyway forsaken or left alone.
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Ian 155

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Re: Did God forsake His Son in His last moments?
« Reply #39 on: February 27, 2013, 02:25:50 PM »


Is there a spritual match in the New  Testament?

Ephesians 5:31-32  For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Since the other posters have written their opinion, I thought I could too, so I just did :)

Found an un matched match regarding your understanding of The Lord leaving us....

Heb 13:5  Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
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