Did God forsake His Son in His last moments?

[G. Driggs]

Couple of different translations to consider. It seems to support what Kat was trying to say.

Matthew 27:46  And about the ninth hour, Jesus cried out with a loud voice and said, Eli, Eli, lmana shabachthani! which means, My God, my God, for this I was kept! (translated by George Lamsa)

Matthew 27:46  And about the ninth hour, Jesus cried with a loud voice and said, "God, God, why have you spared me?" (translated by LWM)

Matthew 27: 46. And about the ninth hour, Y'shua cried out with a loud voice and said, My El! My El! [Lemana shabakthani] Why have you spared me? (AENT)

"Father, I'm ready, why can't we finish this?" Is what I'm getting.

Either way all good responses. Ive always wondered about this too. Thanks for sharing. 

                             

[lilitalienboi16]

Couple of different translations to consider. It seems to support what Kat was trying to say.

Matthew 27:46  And about the ninth hour, Jesus cried out with a loud voice and said, Eli, Eli, lmana shabachthani! which means, My God, my God, for this I was kept! (translated by George Lamsa)

Matthew 27:46  And about the ninth hour, Jesus cried with a loud voice and said, "God, God, why have you spared me?" (translated by LWM)

Matthew 27: 46. And about the ninth hour, Y'shua cried out with a loud voice and said, My El! My El! [Lemana shabakthani] Why have you spared me? (AENT)

"Father, I'm ready, why can't we finish this?" Is what I'm getting.

Either way all good responses. Ive always wondered about this too. Thanks for sharing. 

                             

Thanks for sharing G! I think there are alot of great answers too! I love those scriptural pieces you've shared. Its amazing with time how we truly glean from God little things here and there that give us insight and depth into just who our God is. I see a God I can relate too just a little more as each day passes by.

God bless,

Alex

[Greatest I am]

From Ray's emails:

I do not believe that God "turned His back on His only Son."
There are those who teach it, however. Jesus quoted the first few words found
is Psalm 22 which goes on to describe just Who the Messiah was to be and the
purpose for Him being crucified.

Jesus was telling them who the Messiah was. Hey chaps this is your Messiah you just knocked up on this piece of wood.

Lord not my will but Thy will be done.

The perfect sinless sacrifice for the world. How could you beat this sort of love.

Rhys

That kind of so called love can be beaten quite easily.

A loving father would not demand his son's murder in the first place but he himself would step up if one was required.

God set the conditions.

As above so below.

How would you express your love if you decided a death was required?

Would you have your son killed or would you step up to fill your own requirements and demands for a sacrifice?

Should fathers bury sons or should sons bury fathers?

I think sons should bury fathers. That is natural.

Regards
DL

[onelovedread]

Definition of forsake:
1. To give up (something formerly held dear); renounce: e.g. forsook liquor.
2. To leave altogether; abandon: e.g. forsook Hollywood and returned to the legitimate stage.

Romans 8:11 "and if the Spirit of Him who did raise up Jesus out of the dead doth dwell in you, He who did raise up the Christ out of the dead ... "

Acts 2: 24 "whom God did raise up, having loosed the pains of the death,..."

Seems to me that if "God had indeed forsaken Jesus", then God would not have raised him up from the dead, seeing that He had abandoned him or renounced him (left him altogether).

[Kat]

Hi DL,

The sovereign God determined that He would put His creation through all this and then God Himself would come down and live among us and experience the same things that He requires of us.

But do not think that the Father just sent His son off to do His dirty work for Him?

John 10:30  I and My Father are one."

John 14:9  Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, "Show us the Father'?
v. 10  Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.

Jesus Christ was the perfect image of the Father, it's like the Father created Himself in a form that can be seen and heard, to represent Him perfectly in every way. But Christ had a beginning, unlike the Father, He came forth from the Father and so was not the Father of course.

John 16:28  I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father."

The Oneness that Christ had with the Father was manifold, is much more than just like mindedness. I believe the Father shared and experienced everything through Christ. So even though the Son is who they saw and heard on earth and the One that died (to become the first fruit raised from the dead)... His Father certainly went through everything that He endured and went through. The Father suffered, maybe not physical pain, but I certainly believe the Father suffered as much or more through what His Son had to go through.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Greatest I am]

Definition of forsake:
1. To give up (something formerly held dear); renounce: e.g. forsook liquor.
2. To leave altogether; abandon: e.g. forsook Hollywood and returned to the legitimate stage.

Romans 8:11 "and if the Spirit of Him who did raise up Jesus out of the dead doth dwell in you, He who did raise up the Christ out of the dead ... "

Acts 2: 24 "whom God did raise up, having loosed the pains of the death,..."

Seems to me that if "God had indeed forsaken Jesus", then God would not have raised him up from the dead, seeing that He had abandoned him or renounced him (left him altogether).

A man can die. God cannot die.

Did Jesus/God die?
Impossible.

Unless you have a quote that says God can die.
You do not.

Regards
DL

[Greatest I am]

Hi DL,

The sovereign God determined that He would put His creation through all this and then God Himself would come down and live among us and experience the same things that He requires of us.

But do not think that the Father just sent His son off to do His dirty work for Him?

John 10:30  I and My Father are one."

John 14:9  Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, "Show us the Father'?
v. 10  Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.

Jesus Christ was the perfect image of the Father, it's like the Father created Himself in a form that can be seen and heard, to represent Him perfectly in every way. But Christ had a beginning, unlike the Father, He came forth from the Father and so was not the Father of course.

John 16:28  I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father."

The Oneness that Christ had with the Father was manifold, is much more than just like mindedness. I believe the Father shared and experienced everything through Christ. So even though the Son is who they saw and heard on earth and the One that died (to become the first fruit raised from the dead)... His Father certainly went through everything that He endured and went through. The Father suffered, maybe not physical pain, but I certainly believe the Father suffered as much or more through what His Son had to go through.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

If you are right, then the unchanging God must learn and change all the time.

Hebrews 5:8
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

You say that Jesus and God were close yet ---only the father knows the time of the end; as well as dozens more quotes that say Jesus did not see himself as God.

No point in getting into a quote war though. Not my style so please do not start. We both know that the bible can be made to say damn near anything.

"But do not think that the Father just sent His son off to do His dirty work for Him?"

That is what scriptures, tradition and dogma say, yes.
Did the father die and if so, I will accept that quote that says God can die.

Regards
DL

[onelovedread]

Greatest I am:
I was actually attempting to address Eugene's original question in the post. I am sorry, but I was not trying to argue with you or disprove your point.
There are many scriptures in every translation that state that Jesus died and was raised.
No it doesn't say that God died.

[Kat]

Hi DL,

I'm having a hard time understanding where you are coming from with a lot of your post. God is perfect and has no need to change, how do you improve perfection.

Psa 18:30  As for God, His way is perfect;
       The word of the LORD is proven;
       He is a shield to all who trust in Him.

He determined a perfect plan for this creation, He designed it from beginning to end exactly how it will be, nothing can be changed in a perfect plan.

Isa 46:10  Declaring the end from the beginning,
       And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
       Saying, "My counsel shall stand,
       And I will do all My pleasure,'

The Father and the Son are One, but are not the same being. Jesus made many statements that prove that.

John 14:28  You have heard Me say to you, "I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, "I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.

So if Jesus was not God, then you're saying that He was just a human being? This is from the 09 conference I think it will help you see why Jesus could not have been 'just' a man.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11521.0.html ---------

Luke 18:18 And a certain ruler asked Him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
v. 19 And Jesus said unto him, Why do you call Me good? There is none good, but one, that is God.

Some people would use that to prove that Christ cannot be referred to as God, because He said "only God (speaking of His Father here) is good."  But when He said this, He had divested Himself of all His power and glory, so He was in human form in the weakened state of flesh.
v
Could a man, just a man now, be the Savior of the world?  See, if you're going to argue that Jesus Christ was a man, only a man and nothing divine about him, there are all kinds of problems, just philosophically speaking.

Why would He have to be conceived by God?  Why?  He's just a man and men are born all the time.  So we want him to be of the line of Judah.  All right, fine, let's get a Jewish boy.  You get a Jewish boy and Jewish girl, we'll marry them and they'll have a baby boy and he'll be the Savior of the world.  Why not?

Think about it.  Let's think about all the words. Why did Jesus have to be conceived by His Father?  Why, if He's just a man.  Jewish women have boys all the time.  If He had to be something special above a man, then He was no longer 'just a man.'  Did I say something wrong?  If He had to be something more than a man, then He's more than a man, He's not just a man.

Is any Jewish boy's life worth all the billions of humanity combined?  Is any Jewish boy worth that?  [attendee: No.]  How so?

Why didn't God say, We need a Jewish boy... Jacobson, we'll use you, we're going to crucify you and you're going to save the world that way. --  'Me?'
Yeah, what do you do for a living?  -- 'I'm a carpenter.'
Yeah, that will do. You're a carpenter, okay. We'll kill you and that way I'll save the whole world. --  'Of what value am I that my life is worth more than the whole world of humanity, billions of people?
What would God say?  Well yeah, you're worth more than the rest of humanity put together. --  'How so? Why?'

So why was He conceived by God?  If God wanted a man He could have chosen any man.  If He wanted him to be born of a virgin... fine, he could be born of a virgin. But why did He have to be conceived by God Himself? WHY?
v
Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
v. 29 how much worse punishment, do you suppose, shall he be thought worthy of, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, (that's the blood of Jesus Christ) wherein He was sanctified, an unholy thing...

"An unholy thing" is the word 'koinos' (Strong's 2839) it means common, something that is shared by all or several. 

In other words, just a man, same as any other man, common. It is also translated as 'unclean' when talking about ceremonial things.

Greek-English Keyword Concordance:
Common, belonging to all equally, by implication, NOT SACRED, contaminating ("to make common").

Vines Concise Dictionary of the Bible:
Koinos - common, ordinary; belonging to the generality as distinct from something that is peculiar.

So it is, woe be if you consider the blood of Jesus Christ to be like any other man's blood. Yet one man told me that 'His blood was no better than mine.' Whoa, I would fear to even think something like that, let alone say it.

He was not common. He was not what is shared by everyone.  It says

Php 2:7   ...and took upon Him the form of a servant...

Rom 8:3  ...God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh...

Heb 2:7  You made Him a little lower than the angels;

He took on the form of a servant and He was made like unto sinful flesh and He was made a little lower than the angels... it's not talking about somebody who came out in a natural childbirth.  He was MADE. The scriptures say He was "made a little lower (or for a little while lower) than the angels."  WHY?  So He could die!
v
Heb 2:8  Thou hast put all things in subjection under his (humanity) feet. For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him (under humanity).
v. 9 But we see Jesus, who was MADE...

You see that word, He was MADE.  He wasn't always that way. He had to be MADE that way.  Now, if He were just a man born of a woman, He wouldn't have had to be made anything.  Any man born of a woman will die.  "It is appointed unto all men once to die," but the only way Jesus could die was that God had to MAKE Him lower than the angels, so that He could die.  Are you following me? Does it make sense?  That Jesus was not 'just' born, before He got to the process of actually being born.  He had to be MADE something else from what He was.  WHY? Because what He was, He couldn't die. God didn't force this on Him.  We learn all through the scriptures, Jesus Christ 'volunteered.'

John 10:17  Therefore doth my Father love Me, because I lay down My life, that I might take it again.
v. 18  No man takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.

He said nobody takes My life.  God the Father did not say, I'm going to sacrifice You, come hell or high water and You aren't going to have nothing to say about it.  He said, "I lay down My life,"  "I" do it, He says.  He volunteered.

So, He was made a little lower than the angels for or because of the fact that He had to die.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
--------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[dean kevin heyes]

Hi Newjene87: YES , GOD had to foresake JESUS in HIS final moment, as HE/FATHER had to take HIS/SON life ? As one can not state that GOD did not foresake JESUS and with the next breath say GOD did take his life ? There are practical reasons why this had to happen in this way ! I have touched upon this all important matter in my testimony .          Our irrifutable propitiation    I have revealed why allready but no one has worked it out yet 

[eagle]

Q: Did God forsake His Son on the cross?  A: No !!!

But then the big question is: why did Jesus say "

"Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

I contemplated this last week for the umpteenth time, and suddenly I heard The Spirit say loud and clear: "mediator". And no, that does not happen to me on a day to day basis , so I rushed to my computer and started studying .Before I show you the Scriptures, here is definitions of two important words:

From the Freedictionary.com

a mediator
1. One that mediates, especially one that reconciles differences between disputants.
2. Physiology A substance or structure that mediates a specific response in a bodily tissue


To intercede
1. To plead on another's behalf.
2. To act as mediator in a dispute

Now the Scriptures:

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;1 Timothy 2:5

There it is!!  Jesus spoke on our behalf!! That is why he did not say "My Father, My Father, why hast thou forsaken me" Jesus was speaking/crying on our behalf,for all mankind.
But there is so much more to this

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one." Gal 3:20

Compare this verse to the first verse I quoted, and notice the last 4 words:"...the man Christ Jesus".
In the "equation" :  God-mediator-man , Jesus not only became the mediator, He became the man .
Because:
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.Rom 3:10-11

It is the age old question "Adam, where art thou?" being answered by the last Adam :Jesus on the cross with His arms stretched out open wide crying out " Here I Am"
He became man seeking/pleading with God , and the mediator .

Because He cried "My God, my God..." the following verse has become a reality:

"And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father." Gal 4:6

"For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God"  1. Cr 1: 17-18

I will stop now and wish you and your loved ones a happy easter.


Kind regards