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[Ian 155]

Anyone know what Ray meant here while discussing Rev chap 13

approx  3/4 of the way into the paper lof 1

[bob]

I have also been wondering what Ray meant by this statement. As of now I see 52 of us have viewed this post with out a comment. Those who were very close to Ray will probably have the answer. Bob   P.S. I hope, this has taken up too many of my limited brain cells already..

[Kat]

Hi Ian,

First there is the comment you were speaking of. Then I have put several places where Ray spoke of what this 'buying and selling' was.

http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html -----------------------

Will people be literally tattooed with marks (bar codes, swastikas, Social Security numbers, implanted with computer chips or one of a hundred unscriptural marks being suggested by fundamentalist prophets) in their hands and on their foreheads so that men cannot buy or sell ice cream or automobiles without these marks? Self-appointed prophets of doom haven’t a clue as to what this mark of the beast really is or the number of his name. I have already been bared from buying and selling recently because I refuse to brandish this "mark of the beast"!

http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html --------

Jesus said that they "made the House of Prayer a DEN OF THIEVES"!

Say, did you notice that they were buying and selling "…in the Temple?" Do you think that just maybe this has anything to do with the fact that,

"…NO MAN might BUY OR SELL, save he that had the MARK OR THE NAME OF THE BEAST, or the NUMBER OF HIS NAME" (Rev. 13:17)?

We will cover the Mark of the Beast in a later installment.

But this is all ancient history, isn’t it? The modern Church of God has not been turned into a "den of thieves" has it? Were the High priests and Scribes, going against the law of either their own religious beliefs or of Rome? No. No, they weren’t. So they were not "thieves" according to the Church or the Roman government. But were they thieves, nonetheless? Yes, they were, Jesus Christ SAID THEY WERE THIEVES, a whole "DEN OF THIEVES"!

At least the modern Church of God is not a "den of thieves," is it? I’m sure not all; you can be the judge:

One of the major factors in the Reformation was the disdain over the practice of the Church selling INDULGENCES. The American Heritage College Dictionary, "indulgence n. 6. Roman Catholic Church The remission of temporal punishment still due for a sin that has been sacramentally absolved."

Make no mistake about it:

"For the love of money is the [Gk. ‘a’] root of all evil" (I Tim. 6:10).

Before the Reformation, it was thought that one could practically "buy" one’s salvation.

Jesus "CAST OUT them that sold and bought in the temple." Is there, "buying and selling" going on in the Church today? Excuse me…does a cat have a tail?



http://www.bible-truths.com/fools.htm  ---------------------------

Jesus said they were CRIMINALS! But woe unto me if I should suggest that this same buying and selling in the Churches today is criminal! It IS criminal, I assure you, it is CRIMINAL. And they do FAR WORSE in today’s churches! They not only sell trinkets and religious junk in the Church, they MAKE MERCHANDISE OF THE VERY WORD OF GOD ITSELF. THEY SELL THE WORD OF GOD FOR PROFITS! Here is what Christ said concerning their activities of buying and selling in the Temple:

    "And He taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the House of Prayer? But you have made it a DEN OF THIEVES" (Mark 11:17)!
---------------------------


These words 'buy' and 'sell' are symbols; selling is when someone offers, hawks or dispenses something to others. As buying are those receiving or obtaining something from the one selling.

When we no longer buy into and agree with their traditions, dogmas, and heretical teachings of their religious system - Christendom - Babylon, then you do not have their mark/stamp of approval. You will be cast out, ostracized and accused of being heretics and they certainly will not allow anyone to sell the TRUTH to their membership.

Yes Ray was kicked out of the church and I think that is what he meant in that comment.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[arion]

I don't have Ray's exact quote about this but I know that I had saved it on one of my computers.

Ray said that he was looking for a room to hold a meeting and apparently he went to a few churches.  They wanted to see his 'mark'.  Did he have ministerial credentials?  What denomination was he?  Since Ray didn't have those marks to display they wouldn't rent to him.  It was something along this line that he meant.

[Dennis Vogel]

I know exactly what Ray was talking about because I remember talking about it.

We run groups of ads on Google. I submitted a new group for approval and it got rejected. This group was similar to the other groups but the person whose job it was to approve or reject it did not agree with what our ads were saying and banned the ads. We were barred from buying those ads because of what we believed.

Being banned by Google is not entirely what the bible is talking about. But it could be a small part of it. We will not know for sure what it means until we see it begin to happen. Right now the best we can do is guess.

If Ray were here I'm sure he would agree there is much more to it than this one incident with Google.

[Ian 155]

hmmm interesting... Ok Thanks for that, sure beats getting a horn tattooed on my skull

Ian

[santgem]

These words 'buy' and 'sell' are symbols; selling is when someone offers, hawks or dispenses something to others. As buying are those receiving or obtaining something from the one selling.

When we no longer buy into and agree with their traditions, dogmas, and heretical teachings of their religious system - Christendom - Babylon, then you do not have their mark/stamp of approval. You will be cast out, ostracized and accused of being heretics and they certainly will not allow anyone to sell the TRUTH to their membership.

When we no longer buy into and agree with their teachings of their religious system, they certainly will not allow anyone to sell the TRUTH to their membership............That's the answer!

[Ian 155]

 Santgem I was referring to Rays personal experience he went thru in this matter,but great job you added to my knowledge

Ian

[Dennis Vogel]

These words 'buy' and 'sell' are symbols; selling is when someone offers, hawks or dispenses something to others. As buying are those receiving or obtaining something from the one selling.

When we no longer buy into and agree with their traditions, dogmas, and heretical teachings of their religious system - Christendom - Babylon, then you do not have their mark/stamp of approval. You will be cast out, ostracized and accused of being heretics and they certainly will not allow anyone to sell the TRUTH to their membership.

When we no longer buy into and agree with their teachings of their religious system, they certainly will not allow anyone to sell the TRUTH to their membership............That's the answer!

I don't think so:

Rev 13:16  And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17  And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Rev 13:18  Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Does not explain right hand, forehead, the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name, or 666.

None of us know yet what it means. When it's time we will find out.

[Samson]

Hi Ian,

First there is the comment you were speaking of. Then I have put several places where Ray spoke of what this 'buying and selling' was.

http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html -----------------------

Will people be literally tattooed with marks (bar codes, swastikas, Social Security numbers, implanted with computer chips or one of a hundred unscriptural marks being suggested by fundamentalist prophets) in their hands and on their foreheads so that men cannot buy or sell ice cream or automobiles without these marks? Self-appointed prophets of doom haven’t a clue as to what this mark of the beast really is or the number of his name. I have already been bared from buying and selling recently because I refuse to brandish this "mark of the beast"!

http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html --------

Jesus said that they "made the House of Prayer a DEN OF THIEVES"!

Say, did you notice that they were buying and selling "…in the Temple?" Do you think that just maybe this has anything to do with the fact that,

"…NO MAN might BUY OR SELL, save he that had the MARK OR THE NAME OF THE BEAST, or the NUMBER OF HIS NAME" (Rev. 13:17)?

We will cover the Mark of the Beast in a later installment.

But this is all ancient history, isn’t it? The modern Church of God has not been turned into a "den of thieves" has it? Were the High priests and Scribes, going against the law of either their own religious beliefs or of Rome? No. No, they weren’t. So they were not "thieves" according to the Church or the Roman government. But were they thieves, nonetheless? Yes, they were, Jesus Christ SAID THEY WERE THIEVES, a whole "DEN OF THIEVES"!

At least the modern Church of God is not a "den of thieves," is it? I’m sure not all; you can be the judge:

One of the major factors in the Reformation was the disdain over the practice of the Church selling INDULGENCES. The American Heritage College Dictionary, "indulgence n. 6. Roman Catholic Church The remission of temporal punishment still due for a sin that has been sacramentally absolved."

Make no mistake about it:

"For the love of money is the [Gk. ‘a’] root of all evil" (I Tim. 6:10).

Before the Reformation, it was thought that one could practically "buy" one’s salvation.

Jesus "CAST OUT them that sold and bought in the temple." Is there, "buying and selling" going on in the Church today? Excuse me…does a cat have a tail?



http://www.bible-truths.com/fools.htm  ---------------------------

Jesus said they were CRIMINALS! But woe unto me if I should suggest that this same buying and selling in the Churches today is criminal! It IS criminal, I assure you, it is CRIMINAL. And they do FAR WORSE in today’s churches! They not only sell trinkets and religious junk in the Church, they MAKE MERCHANDISE OF THE VERY WORD OF GOD ITSELF. THEY SELL THE WORD OF GOD FOR PROFITS! Here is what Christ said concerning their activities of buying and selling in the Temple:

    "And He taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the House of Prayer? But you have made it a DEN OF THIEVES" (Mark 11:17)!
---------------------------


These words 'buy' and 'sell' are symbols; selling is when someone offers, hawks or dispenses something to others. As buying are those receiving or obtaining something from the one selling.

When we no longer buy into and agree with their traditions, dogmas, and heretical teachings of their religious system - Christendom - Babylon, then you do not have their mark/stamp of approval. You will be cast out, ostracized and accused of being heretics and they certainly will not allow anyone to sell the TRUTH to their membership.

Yes Ray was kicked out of the church and I think that is what he meant in that comment.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Yes, I agree, We won't buy into what their trying to sell us, their teachings, either the belief in them or the monetary support of them and those that defect present a danger in that they might tell others and explain to others about the things they've discovered to be false and the things they've discovered to be true which might cause others to defect from one of their Denominational Systems, they don't like or want that. We are a threat & a disease from their perspective.

[Joel]

There are a couple scriptures I like pertaining to this subject.

Proverbs 23:23-Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.

Matthew 13:44-Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

Joel

[santgem]

These words 'buy' and 'sell' are symbols; selling is when someone offers, hawks or dispenses something to others. As buying are those receiving or obtaining something from the one selling.

When we no longer buy into and agree with their traditions, dogmas, and heretical teachings of their religious system - Christendom - Babylon, then you do not have their mark/stamp of approval. You will be cast out, ostracized and accused of being heretics and they certainly will not allow anyone to sell the TRUTH to their membership.

When we no longer buy into and agree with their teachings of their religious system, they certainly will not allow anyone to sell the TRUTH to their membership............That's the answer!

I don't think so:

Rev 13:16  And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17  And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Rev 13:18  Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Does not explain right hand, forehead, the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name, or 666.

None of us know yet what it means. When it's time we will find out.

I would like to clarify the excerpt from Kat which i posted.
My understanding is...

When we no longer buy into and agree (Us the believers, especially understanding Rays writings)

with their teachings of their religious system (them, Pagan Doctrines),
they certainly will not allow (Them, Pagan doctrines)
anyone to sell the TRUTH (Who? us the believers, especially Ray)
to their membership (Them, Pagan doctrine)

What does that mean?

Ray did not agree or believed their religious system or doctrines,  that is why he can not sell his doctrines, meaning doctrines of Ray is heresy to them.

[Dennis Vogel]

I don't think this is what the bible is talking about. This is end-time prophesy. Still speculation.

[onelovedread]

Perhaps we should as far as possible, apply Ray's own study "12 principles to understanding the Word"

[Rito1980]

Perhaps we should as far as possible, apply Ray's own study "12 principles to understanding the Word"

 

what are those 12 principles John?

[indianabob]

Hi Rito 1980,
For a good start please see the following web address.
Regards, Indiana Bob

http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm

[Avidfisher]

I think the mark is the scar IN their mind and when they salute, say the pledge of allegence, the trinity gesture catholics do, heil hitler etc etc os always done with the right hand, thus the scar IN their right hand, what is IN the eye is IN the heart, so why wouldn't even the same go here? If the right hand offends the pluck it from your heart.  Jus sayin

[Shawn Fainn]

I would like to clarify the excerpt from Kat which i posted.
My understanding is...

When we no longer buy into and agree (Us the believers, especially understanding Rays writings)

with their teachings of their religious system (them, Pagan Doctrines),
they certainly will not allow (Them, Pagan doctrines)
anyone to sell the TRUTH (Who? us the believers, especially Ray)
to their membership (Them, Pagan doctrine)

What does that mean?

Ray did not agree or believed their religious system or doctrines,  that is why he can not sell his doctrines, meaning doctrines of Ray is heresy to them.

I think it's more than "us vs church". It's really us vs whole world system and government. Over my life, I've seen a loss of power in the church and an increase in power in government. But the one thing that has remained constant with either in that they both desire control (the beast?). Meanwhile we have less and less liberty and freedom..

[adiamondintheson]

I love it when people write in with something on their minds.... and then to see a simple answer come through... SEE... God is still leading and teaching.  Have a super weekend, everybody!!

ps... just wanted to tell you all... Dennis & I come here DAILY.. just to find encouragement.  It's awesome!!

[Dave in Tenn]

The beast is me, Hudson.  I'M the one that desires control.  Whether I'm 'with' or 'against' any system, to be entangled in it IS my desire to control.  Jesus is Lord.