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Author Topic: Free Will  (Read 19354 times)

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Craig

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Free Will
« on: July 28, 2006, 09:50:27 AM »

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1493.0.html

I just posted an email that I believe Ray gives a great answer for the free will question.

Craig
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YellowStone

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2006, 10:01:08 AM »

Thanks Craig,

Free will, is alwas a conteneous issue and you are right, Ray covers it very well in his response.

Have a great day with God.

Darren
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Sorin

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2006, 10:35:06 AM »

You, know, that is undoubtably a really, really strong argument for the lack of free will. I don't see how one can argue with that.
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mongoose

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2006, 12:05:27 PM »

Thanks Craig,
  That is a great explanation.  Isn't it odd how when you believe in free will, you are certain you are in charge of your own destiny (which the world tells us is the way to happiness...be your own person, chart your own future and all that stuff) and are miserable and then, when you give up that concept and learn the truth from God, you know that you are nothing without Him, that you can do nothing on your own and He is in charge of your destiny....and that brings comfort and joy and peace?  At least it's been that way for me.  It just struck me the difference between the two.  Wow, it's absolutely amazing how exactly opposite those things are.

mongoose
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buddyjc

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2006, 12:49:05 PM »

I have just read it and printed it out.  How clear can you get!? 

Brian
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Lightseeker

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2006, 06:02:16 PM »

I've read the article and I'll have to admit that I still struggle with a lot of this teaching (but not all of it).  So what I'm going to say here isn't to argue...it's to ask for anwers which satisfy my questioning heart.
All quotes from Ray:
Quote
"Let this MIND BE IN Y-O-U, which was also in Christ Jesus..."  (Phil. 2:5).

In reading this scripture I can't help but focus on the first word "LET" which precedes getting that 'mind of Christ'. 'To let' ,by inherency,  means one has the capacity 'Not to let'...doesn't it?

Quote
Without the mind of God, we will never understand the spiritual things of God.  They will ALWAYS seem like "foolishness" to the carnal mind. "But the natural man receives NOT the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED"  (I Cor. 2:14).

But in reading this in context, we have to consider the very next verse.

1CO 2:15  But he that is spiritual judgeth/anakrino all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

0350 anakrino:  to scrutinize, i.e. (by impl.) investigate, interrogate, determine

So if we're to judge/determine all things...is that only possible 'after we did what we couldn't help but do'?  If we have that freedom to judge after...don't we have it before?

What do I do with the following verse:
1CO 2:16  For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. 

I'm not trying to split hairs here...but what's the difference between having 'the mind of God' and 'the mind of Christ'?  Aren't they both 'free wills'?  Doesn't scripture say Jesus had God's mind?  Let's go back to Ray's first verse quoted and read it in context.

PHI 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6  Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

So if Jesus' mind was equal to God's mind then am I to believe that God doesn't have free will either?  Surely we don't believe that do we?  And if we are 'to let' that same mind be in us...then how can it not be a free mind/will and yet still be the same as God's mind/will?

Quote
....And can the carnal mind indeed love God by its own nature; its own heart; its own desires?  NO IT CAN'T......The natural mind is totally incapable of loving God:  "For the carnal mind is enmity [deep-seated HATRED] AGAINST GOD..." (Rom. 8:7).
 


Scripture, to me, seems to say that not only can a "Christian" 'will to obey out of his new nature'...but even an 'unbeliever' can will to do so out of his unregenerated nature.
ROM 2:14  For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Gentiles do 'by nature'???  What nature?, surely not the old "sin nature"!!!  That nature which hasn't even been regenerated, renewed, converted and hates God...Help me here.  How can this verse mean what it says without them having freedom of will?   

I know I asked a lot of questions here.  But for me they are good questions worthy of good answers.  Answers which I need to fully accept the 'whole teaching'.  Please bear with me on this.
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2006, 07:34:05 PM »

Perhaps you should reread the Free Will portion(s) of the Lake of Fire papers;

"Free Will" DEFINED

The American Heritage College Dictionary:

"free will n. 1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice. 2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will."

My Meriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary/Eleventh Edition has an even more precise definition:

"free will n. freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention."

It is useless to have a study on this term "free will" unless we stick to a strict, concise and precise definition of the term. As can be seen from our dictionaries, "free will" does not have for a concise or precise definition the ability to "make choices." Yet this is the way it is often defined.

Notice that our dictionaries are specific in stating that it is "FREE choice" that is the definition of "free will," rather than just "choice" alone. To be an expression of "free will," choices must also be free. Free from what? We just read it:

Free from "PRIOR CAUSES."

Free from "CONSTRAINT."

Free from "EXTERNAL CIRCUMSTANCES."

Free from "FATE."

Free from "DIVINE WILL."

Free from "DIVINE INTERVENTION."

Those who would argue for free will, however, refuse being held to these precise and concise definitions. They want the mere ability to "make a choice" to be considered an act of "free will." Well it is nothing of the kind. Making a choice has absolutely nothing to do with the doctrine of "free will." This is easily demonstrated. Computers make "choices." They can make trillions of choices per second. It would take a trillion people to make that many choices in a second. All that these marvelous machines do is make choices.

Now then, will anyone contend that computers have unprogrammed and uncaused, free wills? So now we have proof that making choices is not the same as "free will."

We are not speaking of "Hal" in the Hollywood science fiction fantasy: "2001—A Space Odyssey." Computers do not have "free wills," yet THEY CAN MAKE CHOICES, but those choices are anything but free. Their choices are all a matter of PRE-programming. They cannot think and act independently of "causes." Neither can man think or do anything outside of the realm of "causes." In order for an effect to be present, there must first be a cause, and once something is caused, the effect must follow, and neither could have been prevented.

There is not one example that can be presented by scientific a method, that can demonstrate that man’s will is free from causality. Neither is there an example in all Scripture that can be shown to be the exercise of a will that is free from causality. And that certainly includes all that our Lord Himself ever thought, said, or did.





SUBJECTED TO VANITY NOT WILLINGLY

Here is another profound reason why man’s will is not and never was free. We saw that Eve was already in a state of spiritual weakness and actually committed all of the three categories of sin before she actually ate of the forbidden fruit. And the reason she was in this condition and easy pickins for the serpent, is taught us in the Romans 8:20.

"For the creature [Gk: ‘creation’] was made [put under, subordinate to, to obey] subject to vanity [Gk: ‘futility’], not willingly, but by reason of Him Who has subjected the same in hope."

WOW! What have we here? Free will? I think not. Pay close attention to the words that God inspired:

"WAS MADE"—This is an ACT or CAUSE of God: Not of man’s will.

"SUBJECT TO VANITY"—CAUSED by God: Not man’s choice.

"NOT WILLINGLY"—According to God’s will: Not man’s will.

"BY REASON OF HIM"—By reason of GOD: Not by reason of man.

"WHO HAS SUBJECTED"—Subjected by GOD: Not chosen by man.

So where is the "free" will in all this? There is no free will in all this!

Notice verse 21:

"Because the creature [Gk: ‘creation’] itself also shall be delivered from THE BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God."

Man was never "immortal," neither was he "incorruptible." Not before Adam and Eve sinned, nor after. This is why Paul tells us that,

"For this CORRUPTIBLE must put on incorruption, and this MORTAL must put on immortality" (I Cor. 15:53).

This is not speaking of something that happened later in the history of the human race. No, this goes back to the very CREATION of all things. It is GOD Who does the CREATING and it is GOD Who does the SUBJECTING, and man’s will has absolutely NOTHING to do WITH IT, or ABOUT IT!

If man has a will that is free from being something other than what God Himself has SUBJECTED it to, why doesn’t man just "free will" himself to NOT be subjected to futility and corruption? I’ll tell you why: Because the will of man is NOT FREE to do others things than what it is caused to do, and has absolutely NO POWER OR AUTHORITY to do otherwise, independent of God’s will and God’s choices for him. How about a Chapter and Verse on that statement? Okay:

"Then said Pilate unto Him, Speak you not unto me? Know you not that I HAVE POWER to crucify you, and have POWER TO RELEASE YOU? Jesus answered, You could have NO POWER AT ALL against Me, except it were GIVEN YOU from above…" (John 19:10-11).

Lightseeker, attempting to get the members to condense all of this into a "Reader's Digest" format in the order of your questions is not a reasonable request, reread the material and e-mail Ray any disputes you may have with his views with 2 scriptural witnesses.

Thanks,

Joe
« Last Edit: July 28, 2006, 07:37:12 PM by hillsbororiver »
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Brett

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2006, 08:28:40 PM »

Quote
In reading this scripture I can't help but focus on the first word "LET" which precedes getting that 'mind of Christ'. 'To let' ,by inherency,  means one has the capacity 'Not to let'...doesn't it?


Hi Lightseeker,

I understand your concering the scripture. I looked up Phil. 2:5 "Let" in e-sword with Greek is phroneo. This does not mean 'let'. I believe the translation were not correct to write "let" because the Greek manuscript in Phili. 2:5 never find "let". The word Phroneo mean 'mind' or 'think', so the translation must have added "let". But I found correct translation from American Standard Version:

     Have this mind [phroneo] in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

I do not see similar as 'free will'. Hope this help you? :-\

Brett
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Joey Porter

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2006, 10:04:28 PM »

I reckon I've probably only spent a couple hundred hours thinking about this issue, as opposed to thousands, so Ray is probably much more enlightened.  But I've been thinking recently about how God answers prayers. 

Most Christians will happily proclaim all the answered prayers that God has blessed them with.  But do they stop and think about how God answers prayers? 

If God answers your prayer by orchestrating some event that invovles another person, did that person have free will to  do or not do what he or she did to answer your prayer?  If we say "God answered my prayer by this person coming into my life and helping me," then, how could that person have had free will not to help us?  How could that person have had any other choice but to help us if God had determined to use that person to answer our prayer? 

Can we say "that person chose to help me on his own free will" and in the same breath say "God answered my prayer by that person coming into my life and helping me?"



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gmik

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2006, 11:17:40 PM »

thanks.
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rocky

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2006, 01:06:14 AM »

Mat 26:31  Then said Jesus, "This night all of you will stumble and fail in your fidelity to me; for it is written, 'I WILL STRIKE THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP OF THE FLOCK WILL BE SCATTERED IN ALL DIRECTIONS.'

Mat 26:33  "All may stumble and fail," said Peter, "but I never will."

Mat 26:35 "Even if I must die with you," declared Peter, "I will never disown you." In like manner protested all the disciples.

Mat 26:69  Peter meanwhile was sitting outside in the court of the palace, when one of the maidservants came over to him and said, "You too were with Jesus the Galilaean."

Mat 26:70  He denied it before them all, saying, "I do not know what you mean."

Mat 26:71  Soon afterwards he went out and stood in the gateway, when another girl saw him, and said, addressing the people there, "This man was with Jesus the Nazarene."

Mat 26:72  Again he denied it with an oath. "I do not know the man," he said. Mat 26:74  Then with curses and oaths he declared, "I do not know the man." Immediately a cock crowed,

Mat 26:75  and Peter recollected the words of Jesus, how He had said, "Before the cock crows you will three times disown me." And he went out and wept aloud, bitterly.



I see no way Peter could not have denied Christ three times.  His will was not free, it was determined beforehand what he would do. 


« Last Edit: July 29, 2006, 01:07:47 AM by rocky »
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Joey Porter

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2006, 01:14:47 AM »

Mat 26:31  Then said Jesus, "This night all of you will stumble and fail in your fidelity to me; for it is written, 'I WILL STRIKE THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP OF THE FLOCK WILL BE SCATTERED IN ALL DIRECTIONS.'

Mat 26:33  "All may stumble and fail," said Peter, "but I never will."

Mat 26:35 "Even if I must die with you," declared Peter, "I will never disown you." In like manner protested all the disciples.

Mat 26:69  Peter meanwhile was sitting outside in the court of the palace, when one of the maidservants came over to him and said, "You too were with Jesus the Galilaean."

Mat 26:70  He denied it before them all, saying, "I do not know what you mean."

Mat 26:71  Soon afterwards he went out and stood in the gateway, when another girl saw him, and said, addressing the people there, "This man was with Jesus the Nazarene."

Mat 26:72  Again he denied it with an oath. "I do not know the man," he said. Mat 26:74  Then with curses and oaths he declared, "I do not know the man." Immediately a cock crowed,

Mat 26:75  and Peter recollected the words of Jesus, how He had said, "Before the cock crows you will three times disown me." And he went out and wept aloud, bitterly.



I see no way Peter could not have denied Christ three times.  His will was not free, it was determined beforehand what he would do. 




That's true.  Once God declares a prophecy, how could there be any possible way that anyone could choose to do something that opposes that prophecy?
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Lightseeker

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2006, 03:00:35 AM »

Joe,

Thank you for your lengthly response...you've have given some really good things to consider.  I have read the 'Free will portions of the LOF' series, but you are correct that it was one time.  The problem is, I ask myself questions concerning the teaching from beginning to end.  And I have also been exposed to a similar teaching by Preston Eby titled "What do you mean man is a free moral agent".  It's quite similar and was easier to accept more of it (though not all) because of his defining of 'free, moral, agent'.  I don't believe that one has to completely understand a teaching the first time to get a feeling that bears witness to one's spirit as to its truth.  And I do see the truth in the dictionary definiton as you pointed out.Your definition/post also eliminated 'choices' also.   But I thought I remembered Ray saying he does believe in us "making choices".  Am I remembering that wrong? 

Quote
Lightseeker, attempting to get the members to condense all of this into a "Reader's Digest" format in the order of your questions is not a reasonable request, reread the material and e-mail Ray any disputes you may have with his views with 2 scriptural witnesses.
I admit it was a 'condensed attempt' to question the condensed quoted post which this thread was based upon.  I simply asked a number of questions based on that condensed post.  And I really don't want to respond to your post with another number of questions which your post raises to me.  I would have preferred simple, or even complex answers, to even one of my questions.  Several of which were based upon "two verses" in context which is why I asked them.

I'll end this now in the hope that you can all bear with me as I seek not, 'to win some debate'...but only 'to find a pearl of truth'.  
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2006, 05:12:08 PM »

More from Ray on this;

> Hi, I will not add to all of the words that you must read every day saying
> millions of words of gratitude. So to sum it all up. THANK YOU SO VERY
> MUCH!!!! THANK YOU GOD!
>
> Now here is my question: Free Will i have read much of your work and
> understand that we have NO FREE will. But how far does it extend. Is God in
> control of every little move we make (i like to believe so) And if He is
> then why would he punish the wicked? Obviously not for all eternity! But
> why?? Is it not His Will that they be wicked?? Potter of honour and
> dishonour?, creator of evil, hardened pharohs heart? So why would they be
> punished? And is not the evil doctrine of hell (depths of Satan) also Gods
> will, strong delusion, NONE OTHER BURDEN etc.. IS NOT EVERYTHINGS GODS
> WILL??
> so heres one of many scriptures that confuse me on this free will subject:
>
> "Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom
> of heaven: but he that does the will of My Father which is in heaven. MANY
> will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name?
> And in Thy name have cast out devils [demons]? And in Thy name done MANY
> WONDERFUL WORKS? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart
> from Me, ye [ye means ‘ALL of you’] that work INIQUITY [lawlessness]" (Matt.
> 7:21-23).
>
> Does not all we do the will of God? Isn't it impossible not to? Is not
> EVERYTHING IN THIS ENTIRE WORLD THAT TAKES PLACE THE WILL OF GOD!!!?? So how
> can God not alow people to enter into His Kingdom when He is the one who
> Wills them to do Good and Evil,Honour and Dishonour, INIQUITY AND SIN!!??
> Doesnt He control all? or does he onl y control some things? i am confused
> why God would not alow certain people into his kingdom if it is His Will
> that they work Iniquity!
>
> Hope you can understand my question.
> Thank you
> Humbly In Christ
> Alex


Dear Alex:

We must distinguish between God's "will" as a noun meaing His ultimate purpose and destination of things, and God's "plan" to achieve His "will."  It is God's will that mankind live righteously, but it is His purpose, plan, and intention that they first live UNrighteously.  The first is a necessary precursor to achieve the second. God commands men to do the impossible.  This too is a necessary precursor for man's learning. We must be humbled in our utter inability to do God's perfect will, before we will ever repent of our weakness and wickedness.  And understand that God does not force us to sin. We sin voluntarily from our hearts, and in so doing it is only right and good that we should be punished for sinning. Our hearts and minds must be converted from what they are into the Image of God's Son.

God be with you,

Ray
 
 
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tb

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2006, 01:14:28 AM »

Here's how I see it.

If I loaded up 10 people from 10 different walks of life onto a bus and took them to a bar I would get 10 different reactions.  Some would be appalled, some would be curious, some would go in but not drink, some would go in and get drunk -- the point is that if we were robots as some suggest then we would all react the same.  But we are all different.  If we were never tested and tried we would all never know sin, but we would also never know righteousness.  That would be a robot.  God gives us a wonderful opportunity to know righteousness.  The only way to get there is through sin.  We do have a will, but it is tried and tested constantly by our creator.  WHY?  Because it is the only way he can teach us about righteousness.  We truly learn through our mistakes.  Some of us will learn righteousness in this lifetime.  Those will be in the first resurrection.  The majority however will not learn righteousness in this lifetime, their sins will lead them to their deaths and ultimate judgment in the second resurrection.  It is not the sins that will be judged it is our reactions to the trials and temptations.  Some would argue that if God never tempted us than we would never sin.  They miss the point.  Our purpose here is to learn true sacrifice.  How can we learn not to sin if we are never tempted to sin.  So NO our wills are not free from manipulation.  We are NOT free because God is always tempting and trying our hearts.  It has been an amazing journey from the time I first ran across Ray's site to now!  I find myself praying that my will be aligned with His.  When I pray that-- it happens!  That's the peace that passes all understanding.  To have something horrible happen to you and know that it was part of God's plan and for a bigger purpose is sooo powerful.  Not that it has been or is an easy road to travel.  I feel (a little) like Jesus in the garden crying first that it all be taken away and then also that God's will be done.  Knowing that God's Will will hurt and yet wanting it anyway because it will be the best possible way.  Unbelievable stuff!  Of course I tremble every morning. God is so powerful and I feel it every day how in control He really is and how puny it makes me feel. Yet at the same time I feel so powerful not having to "control" everything, you know?  Just riding it out and letting God's breath blow me where He wants me to go.  Then a storm comes in and I say "hey, God, I know that's you;  I hope this one isn't too bad;  help me make it through and give me your peace"  And when I pray that I always get that peace and a knowledge that either "everything is going to be okay", or "hang on this is going to be tough!"  Either way I get closer to God every time and that is all worth it to me!  (Sorry to ramble, just having a moment) ;)
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MG

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2006, 04:42:18 AM »

Quote
God commands men to do the impossible.  This too is a necessary precursor for man's learning. We must be humbled in our utter inability to do God's perfect will, before we will ever repent of our weakness and wickedness.

Amen!
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John9362

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2006, 07:37:32 AM »

I enjoyed your "ramble" tb ..........Thanks

John
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chumkin

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2006, 09:41:16 AM »

hey bobby,

i agree, we puny humans living in real time in the here and now think we have free will.

when i realized the truth of how big God is and that he holds all thngs together, ie, unseen particals.

the vastness of god is uncomprehendable.

one thing for sure, knowing this has made it easeir to understand his will and to obey him.


ill paste this again as a reminder:

We may regard the present state of the universe as the effect of its past and the cause of its future. An intellect which at any given moment knew all of the forces that animate nature and the mutual positions of the beings that compose it, if this intellect were vast enough to submit the data to analysis, could condense into a single formula the movement of the greatest bodies of the universe and that of the lightest atom; for such an intellect nothing could be uncertain and the future just like the past would be present before its eyes." – Marquis Pierre Simon de Laplace


God bless
chuckt
« Last Edit: August 02, 2006, 09:42:29 AM by chumkin »
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Karen

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2006, 01:02:41 AM »

II PETER 2:4 FOR IF GOD DID NOT SPARE THE ANGELS WHO SINNED, BUT CAST THEM INTO HELL AND DELIVERED THEM INTO CHAINS OF DARKNESS, TO BE RESERVED FOR JUDGEMENT.                                  ABOUT THIS FREE WILL QUESTION. IF GOD DID NOT SPARE HIS ANGELS. THIS ANGELS MUCH HAVE BEEN CREATED WITH THERE OWN FREE WILL TO CHOOSE TO SIN . WHY WOULD A ANGEL SIN THAT IS SPIRIT?  I DIDNT THINK ANGELS WHERE CREATED TO THINK . JUST AS SATAN WAS A SPIRIT. TO ME IT SOUNDED LIGHT ANGELS WAS ABLE TO MAKE THERE OWN CHOICES APART FROM GOD. WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK ABOUT THIS SCRIPTURE? ~KAREN~
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JJ

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2006, 02:25:44 AM »

TB, that was a very thoughtful ramble!  Thanks for taking the time. 

Love hearing others express these raw truths--things that christianity
can't sell.   The truth of these things would be quite unappealing
to the majority-- the churches wouldn't be so full. 

I'll enjoy re-reading this thread to fill in for the conversation that
I can't find with any of my local friends.    Even when it hurts, doesn't
the Truth just thrill your soul?  Has to be God's work in us, huh?-- cuz
we would not on our own turn TO Him and see these things. 

Good thread ya all!   

Jayle
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