Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Dave in Tenn]

It's beyond question that we make choices.  We even have a will of our own.  Neither is 'free' from what caused them. 

Ray says "Always do the right thing" because he is hoping to be a part of the cause of his reader desiring and choosing the right thing.  Both the will to choose and the ability to choose and follow through are subject to the influence of God on our lives.  Even the fact that there is a 'good choice' and a 'bad choice' is because of God.  Besides all that, the fact that we exist to make the choice is because of Him.  All of this creation is because of Him.  Without Him there is absolutely nothing.  No thing.  Nothing at all.

What choice we make is also the very and only choice He knew before hand we would make. 

He didn't create us so He could judge us for our choices (contrary to what is taught in most churches), though He does and will judge every man.  Judgment itself is for a purpose.  We're not simply "predestined" but predestined to good works.  When He's ready for us to do them, He gives us both the desire and the power to do them so that no man may boast.  He is the One working IN us and through us just as He works in all and through all to do His purpose.

I'm quite happy to be like a marionette.  I know that some of the 'strings' that control me are short, some are long, some are internal, some are external, some are invisible, and some are visible.  I'm especially happy because if my choices were strictly up to me, I would NEVER get to what God is creating me to be.  First I must know that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.  But had He not revealed himself, nobody would know He exists.  Had He not loved me first, I could not love Him.  Had He not chosen me, I could not choose Him.  I'm just a beast, a creature, a vessel, a lump of clay, a pot being spun according to His purpose.

I'm also happy because some of the 'strings' which control me now will be (and are being) cut, because He is also Lord over Satan and his ministers.

I am NOT a marionette because I am not made out of wood or plastic  I am a human being with a mind (which must receive input to make decisions) and a heart (which must be changed from it's stony natural state into a soft one) under His influence.

The absolute sovereignty of God is what ensures the salvation of all and the birthing of sons and daughters to create His ever expanding family.

Anyway, as Ray said often, meditate on this truth for a few thousand hours and it will be clearer to you.  Hang in there, and welcome to the forum.

 

[Gina]

Ray says "Always do the right thing" because he is hoping to be the cause of his reader choosing the right thing.

Exactly.

[Dave in Tenn]

I don't want to argue either, but just speak a bit to your ice-cream analogy.  It may well be pretty inconsequential whether the boy chooses chocolate or strawberry.  Maybe if he's allergic to strawberries it would be more obvious.  But we don't know what is consequential...the Father does, seeing as how He is involved in everything.

Though his choice of flavors is just as "caused" as any other choice he makes, the Lord God is molding him even through that, as silly as that might sound.

Some things we DO know are consequential, though we're not born that way 100%.  We have to learn.  The message of scripture isn't whether the choice of chocolate or strawberry is inconsequential or not.  The message of Scripture is "Don't worry about anything."

Choose your flavor and don't worry.  Follow God when you've learned His will.  Don't worry.  He is able to make us stand.   

[RogerH]

Ray says "Always do the right thing" because he is hoping to be the cause of his reader choosing the right thing.

Exactly.

In this post Gina you are quoting Dave, so that means that both of you agree that Ray wants to be the cause of his reader choosing the right thing.  Then in your other posts you try to tell me that it is impossible for anyone to make choices on their own.  Still in other posts I read on the forum, you are dissing people for doing things that you don't agree with.  All I have to say about it is what's the use???  If everything we do is scripted by God, then why even discuss any of this?  In fact, why does God put us through all of this if He completely controls every outcome??  Why doesn't He just make us completely subservient to Him and choose for everyone to only do good things rather than evil things?  Yes, I know some believe it's to teach us eventually to desire good rather than evil, but if everything we do, say or think is controlled, what is there to learn?  Why should we or Ray or Paul or Jesus or anyone ever disagree with anything that anyone does if it's all God causing it to happen??  It seems to me that we should just grin and bear it since we have no hope of ever changing any of it.

Just to set the record straight, I do agree with Dave's post above.  I never said that God is not entirely in control or that He doesn't put us through everything that we go through, only that I believe that He does give us the authority to choose certain things.  I believe the Truth is much simpler than most of us make it out to be.  I believe that God has predetermined the outcome of all things, like Dave said, "The absolute sovereignty of God is what ensures the salvation of all and the birthing of sons and daughters to create His ever expanding family."  I also agree that only a few are called by Him in this lifetime, and He judges those few to see which ones will be "chosen".  I believe that not one of us can do anything good because our hearts are evil all the time.  I believe all of these things, but I also believe that He gives us the choice to make as to whether we will heed His call.  That doesn't mean we can accomplish any of it on our own, but we must deny ourselves (our evil hearts) every day and pray for Him to change us. The word tells me I should present myself a living sacrifice to God.  That means to me that I should come before Him humbly, deny all of my selfish desires and say, "what's next Lord"?  "Teach me Your ways", "Renew my evil heart", "Have your way with me Lord."  If we don't have the choice to accept the word and a desire to want to obey then how can we be held accountable for NOT obeying?

You say in your post that “we volunteer to sin”.  Now I would like to ask you, If you cannot make a choice on your own and God causes everything, then how in the world do you “volunteer” to sin??   

Ok, now I’m beginning to feel like you Gina, what’s the use of wasting all my time typing this if I can accomplish nothing by it?   I guess I will go and do some more reading.

God bless,
Roger

[Kat]

Hi RogerH,

This idea must be one of the hardest concepts to really understand. Though all we do is ultimately causes by things most times we do not even realize, the fact is 'we' do, say and think what we do our self. It comes into our mind and will to voluntarily do what we choose to do/say. A robot/puppet does not have the capacity to think things through and make a decision like we do.

For now in this age we are having an "experience in evil" to form a backdrop, a base, so that when the truth is finally revealed we have a comparison and can see a real difference. These experiences that we are having by living and making choices builds within us a character, this is necessary for a base foundation that we all need, it's like the clay the potter uses. Once we have something to work with and yes our carnality always makes us wicked to start with, but God will take it, for a very few now, for most later and shape it into something worth while. It is a process, it seems long and daunting, but it will product all of these unique individuals that will make up a glorious family as a outcome.

Here are a few more excerpts that may help.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=9822.0 -----------

You are not understanding this subject and the principle behind it. You ask: "Is it man making the choices or is it God's predestination of things?"  It is BOTH.  Listen:  God is SOVEREIGN! Man therefore has NO FREE WILL OR NO FREE CHOICE.  That's it. That's all there is to it.  That IS the principle. That IS the Truth.  That IS what the Bible teaches.  It is not a contradiction to say that "Man makes his own choices."  You and millions of other just think it is a contradiction to say man makes his own choices if indeed God is sovereign and God is behind all in His creation.  It is not a contradiction. It only sounds like a contradiction for those who do not believe that "God is Sovereign, and Man has no free will."

I hardly know what else to tell you.  God made man's heart. Man did not make his own heart, or his body, or his mind, or his brain, or his will, or his hopes and dreams.  They are all PREDESTINATED by the foreknowledge of God.  So then we don't make choices, right?  NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO....WE DO MAKE CHOICES.  It's just that they are CAUSED by things we can't always see.  Sometimes we can see what makes our choices and some times we can't, but either way THEY ARE CAUSED.  And God, not us, already knows in advance the outcome of all of those caused choices. How does He do that?  He is very smart (has over a 150 IQ), plus HE IS SOVEREIGN, ALL WISE, AND ALL POWERFUL.....and don't forget LOVE.

So, does God FORCE EVIL MEN TO RAPE LITTLE GIRLS?  Well, does He?  Does God being Sovereign prove that God forces evil men to rape little girls?  That's what evil theologians deduce from the truth of no free will.  They turn the Sovereignty of God into one of the biggest evils in the universe. If God is Sovereign, then God must be EVIL, because there is so much evil in the world, and God is in control of all things, right?  Wrong, wrong, wrong!  Man makes all his own choices. Just because they are CAUSED does not mean that he does not make them.  He is, in fact, CAUSED TO MAKE HIS CHOICES. But God does not directly do this. He is responsible, but He does not directly cause those choices. Things like the Devil do such things.  And who created the Devil?  That's right, that One Who is Sovereign and in charge of all things.  Evil men like raping just like evil theologians like stealing widow's social security money.  God doesn't make them do it--THEY LIKE TO DO IT.  They volunteer with little outside influence.  God made humanity this way. He created them spiritually weak.  Eve couldn't help but sin.  God has a good purpose and God will straighten it all out in the end.


http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm#responsibility ----------------

[Ray Replies]

You ask how one is held "accountable" when he only did what he HAD to do? I actually do answer this in my paper, but let me relate it for you.  God has NOT given man 'free' will (the ability to make UNCAUSED choices), all of man's choices are CAUSED BY SOMETHING. But the man DOES MAKE THE CHOICES!

When you or I are confronted with a decision to either do something that we know is right, or know is wrong, we weight the options and MAKE THE CHOICE. God has absolutely given man a brain that has the ability to process information. Man CAN process information and make a choice. But it is the information itself the causes the choice one way or the other. The man cannot make a choice WITHOUT some form of information that influences or ultimately CAUSES him to make a choice. NO ONE MAKES US MAKE THE CHOICE, even other unforeseen circumstances and information DOES MAKE OR CAUSE US TO CHOOSE!  True, circumstances beyond our control, which we do not see or even perceive, do cause us to MAKE a choice, but ... BUT, IN OUR OWN HEART AND MIND, WE MAKE THE CHOICE -- not someone else or something else.

But "it's all GOD" Who is ACTUALLY doing it, isn't it? NO, YOU, ACTUALLY, ARE THE ACTIVE PARTICIPANT WHO IS DOING IT! God merely brings about the circumstances that INFLUENCE AND CAUSE YOU TO DO IT! 

Now then, pay close attention to what I am saying:  Why are we held accountable for something that we absolutely COULD NOT HAVE AVOIDED?  Why?   Because at the time we made the 'voluntary' (not absolutely 'FREE,' but 'voluntary') CHOICE, it was in OUR heart and in OUR mind to DO SO. And if the choice was WRONG, or SINFUL, then WE, not GOD, must be held accountable. God takes the "responsibility" for what we did -- hence He DIED ON A CROSS FOR US, but WE are accountable for our SINFUL WRONG CHOICES.

This is the only way man will LEARN right from wrong! Adam and Eve were 'TOLD' right from wrong, but not until they actually 'EXPERIENCED' right and wrong, did it make sense to them.  IT IS WRONG TO SIN WHETHER WE WERE COERCED TO COMMIT SIN OR NOT.   "The DEVIL MADE me do it." It matters not, YOU DID IT and are therefore accountable.

Juveniles commit MILLIONS of crimes and sins for which they are not RESPONSIBLE. But, nonetheless, our own court system HOLDS THEM ACCOUNTABLE. And even human, carnal, judges take this factor into consideration when handing out penalties.

It is the PENALTY that also CAUSES US TO CHOOSE RIGHTLY after we have chosen WRONGLY! When we burn our fingers on a hot stove, we LEARN to not touch a hot stove.

God has developed a "ways and means" to accomplish His righteous end, plan, and purpose. And God's ways are VERY WISE -- they WORK, and they work very well!  We have this absolute promise from God:

"When Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world, WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9)!!!

God be with you,

Ray

[GaryK]

I usually regret my posts after I make them.   For all I know others may feel the same way when they see a post by "Horseman".        They just don't seem as smart as everyone else's posts, but I'll do it anyway.




Roger,

Everything you've written.........I understand.   

Your point of view and your reasoning stands equal to my point of view and reasoning.  I've struggled with the matter for the better part of 5 years. You'd think after 5 years I'd just give up and say "to hell with it".  But I don't believe in hell.   


Kat writes of Ray, "It is the PENALTY that also CAUSES US TO CHOOSE RIGHTLY after we have chosen WRONGLY!"

Sounds pretty.  And that's all fine and well.   But man gets one lifetime of flesh.

When one "chooses wrongly" and the consequences of such a decision, or decisions, result in a lifetime of undesired consequences, not only for that particular person but for anyone who may be in a direct line to feel those consequences from choices that were made, it hardly makes any difference after the deed is done. Man gets--one-- ONE--(1)-- lifetime and the consquences of choices may be a lifetime, exactly, of remorse. Millions by millions make "choices" and live a lifetime of regret, all at God's behest?  Really?

It that's true then who reallys gives a s*it if God made the devil do it who then made the man do it?  One life, that's it.  That's not hard math and it isn't pretty either.   But it sure does sound like that's the way it is.  So just exactly how merciful is this God when man only gets one (1) life and can do NOTHING to rescend such terrible choice(s)?   

That's my question now after the hours, as Dave reminds us, we must spend drudging through the subject to come to agreement that God is in charge and we're not.

I'm coming to believe that in a matter such as this man truly does become an island, mentally speaking, and best it be so.  Man and God.  Alone.  You will struggle with this, and best it be that way to even begin to understand what is true and what is false. I'm beginning to believe maybe the struggle is worth it's weight in gold, even more so than the discovery.

Some get it, some don't.  Some SAY they get it, when they really don't.  And it usually shows in their words on differing posts from time to time. You've called that out. But they'll make a good show of convincing.


But I'm not on your side.   I don't have to be and here's why:

You can't have it both ways.    One can't say, "I believe in the sovereignty of God" but then say "we have LIMITED free will".   That's a really true contradiction and that APPEARS to be what you're saying.

I don't think it works that way Roger.  It's one or the other.

The struggle will, perhaps, bring you to this point:


Matthew 10 (Amplified Bible)

24 A disciple is not above his teacher, nor is a servant or slave above his master.


John 14:10
King James Version (KJV)

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.


John 19:11
King James Version (KJV)

11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above:



You're either for or against but you ain't gonna be in the middle because there is no middle, and wherever your mental boots stand, be it for or against, you can believe it's you and God in that very spot, alone.   And you will not be in control.   That much I do know.


Jesus is either the greatest bulls*hit artist ever created, fooling billions with more to come, or he's telling the truth. That part only you and God are going to discover.   You and God.  No-one else will be in the equation.


I'm getting to the point I don't even care if my will is free or not.  Decisions are decisions, what control do I have?

Just tell me how Jesus is going to do this biggie:


Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

4 "and God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes,"


Oh yea?   Does everyone get a "do-over"?

[John from Kentucky]

Hi Horseman,

Yeah, everyone gets a do-over.

One major truth is that of the resurrection of the dead.  We don't just have this lifetime.

As Job said, "If a man die, will he live again?  All the days of my life will I wait until my change come.  You will call and I will answer."

So death is not the end of anything.  Death is sleep.  We will get a do-over until God decides we are O.K., then the last enemy to go will be death.

But you know this.

God's ways are sometimes hard to understand, but whether we understand them or not, He will always do things His way.

John

P.S.  I like those Scriptures you quoted.

[lilitalienboi16]

Hi Roger,

I shared this in another post about accountability verse responsibility. I think it fits this theme of "choice" very well.

It's very simple reg.

Because God created man practically a sinning machine, with a weak heart and because it takes spiritual strength to do what is right, man volunteers to sin on a daily basis. However, because he was created thus, God takes full responsibility by dying and one day redeeming all creation. This is God being responsible.

Now, when you decided to sin, YOU wanted to in your heart, God did not force you or make you sin. You absolutely wanted to commit that sin when you did therefor you are accountable. This is you being held accountable.

Two examples;

The earth is naturally dark on its own. It is devoid of light. Earth can be made to metaphorically represent man. The sun, which can be metaphorically analogous to God, is what shines and gives light to the earth. So long as the sun is near the earth will be filled with light. However, take away that light and the earth instantly becomes dark again. So much like the earth, there is nothing in man that inately gives him the ability to Shine (Do good/right), this is the power of God.

Now the example ray uses is one of a bible verse a pornography magazine.

Lets assume you have a man in a closed room and there is absolutely no one around and no one who will know what he does in that room. Now lets assume before him are these two books, one the Word of God and the other all things carnal in the form of pornography. Which book do you think this man will choose?

The porno of course because it takes spiritual strength to do what is good and open up the Word of God over the images of beautiful naked women! This is the state in which man was created, a very weak heart, subject to vanity, carnal etc.. and so God says, Hey! I'm not an idiot, I know I'm responsible for this so I'm dying for all these sins mankind will commit and I will change you.

Man however, when he chose to open up that pornography magazine, absolutely wanted to. No one forced him, no one made him do it, He really wanted to do it. He had every intention in his heart at that moment to do it and so he will be held accountable. This is accountability.

Though God may have brought about the circumstances (responsible) which put this man in this position to sin, the man absolutely wanted to sin in that moment which he commited the sin (accountable).

Does that help?

Its how I understand it and I think its exactly how it works.

God be with you,

Alex

Thread: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,15006.msg133019.html#msg133019

[Kat]

Hi Horseman,

You might get tried of hearing me on this subject, but I feel it is worth any and every effort and that is the point of these discussions, to try and help someone.

I think you are saying that all the suffering that some certainly do have in this life is too much and it's wrong for God to put this much on humans.

Well my signature Scripture is this...

James 4:14  whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. What is your life? For ye are a vapor, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.

This lifetime that we have is but a breath in our existence... I believe this life's purpose is to give an experience in evil that we might have this backdrop, as dark and terrible as it is. But I believe it is absolutely necessary for comparative sake, we have to know evil in order to understand (by comparison) righteousness. And do realize that even all the evil that we have has limits. I mean the body just will take so much and it will die and the suffering ceases.

Now as you were saying, but we only have this one lifetime. Well what is the life in the next age then and after that as well? I believe the primary purpose for the next age is to rectify to all people what they experience in the age. Remember what Jesus said many times.

Luke 13:29  They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God.
v. 30  And indeed there are last who will be first, and there are first who will be last."

I believe that this is a very simple way Jesus states there will be justice for all in the next age. We do not know what God has in store in the next age, but how can we think He cannot make all things right? How can you think He is incapable of that?

I will try a little analogy. When I have a bad tooth I go to the dentist (understand I hate to go and have my teeth worked on), but I do it even though I hate every min I'm sitting there having the work done. So was what the dentist did bad/evil for the suffering he caused me? Of course not, I needed to have it done. So did I enjoy it? Heck no, even though I wanted it done. That might not be a real good example to this discussion, but what I trying to say is that sometimes we have to do things that we do not enjoy at all for what it brings about.

I'm saying of course God does not enjoy what must be done here... but yes He did determined that this is the best way to produce the outcome He wants. To think that what we are going through now in this life (a vapor/breath) is too much... well I believe that beyond this life we will have endless life with God in glory. For the few a bit sooner than the rest.

I know God has graced me to accept this, which I'm so thankful for. But I will try to help anybody if I possibly can, because I believe this is vital to begin to really know our God.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Dave in Tenn]

Been thinking about this for the past few days and want to add something I hope is encouraging.

Nobody should take anything said in this thread on the subject of the 'illusion' of free-will, or free-choice or free moral agency as meaning this truth is like some 'gnostic' knowledge hidden deep and only found by dividing the Hebrew letters in Ecclesiates chapter three by the Greek words in 1. Thessalonians chapter one or some other such freakishness.  That's not what Ray meant by "meditate on this for a long time". 

I think I can speak for others in saying that, when you 'see' it, you will wonder why it seemed so difficult.  One reason why it is so hard is because it certainly SEEMS like we make choices un-caused by anything else.  This can be 'taught' away.  There are other reasons why, though, and some of those require a change of heart.

I think once we are ready to at least 'consider' the possibility, it is both through Scripture AND living/proving that the sovereignty of God and the illusory nature of 'free-will/choice' come into focus.  Ray said it was in obedience (both successful and failure) we really learn the deeper things of God.  That very much matches my experience, and the experience of Peter (and all the others) in his denial of Christ and subsequent "power" to declare Him openly. 

I'd only add that sometimes this knowledge comes in stages, and we are not all in identical places in this transformation.  How 'deep' this understanding is in us varies.  It's the best possible start to understand that the sovereignty of God ensures the Salvation of all.  Ultimately, the Light will shine on us all, and when it does, it will be 'sudden'...and worth it.



 

[Deborah-Leigh]

 

Everything, every, thing, is relative, (all expressing out of Absolute God )

Relativity, by definition has therefore variables, by contrast to Absolute.

The Matrix of life is in dramatic convolution experience that eventually opens up to the unified field of consciousness. Love your enemy as yourself. Do unto others as you do unto yourself.

Arc

[Wonone]

I just caught up with this amazingly intense, sincere, insightful and heart wrenching thread. What a blessing you are BT Forum. What a treasure trove! And to think that you are my sisters and brothers, well ... wow! Peace to you all! -- It is interesting how the thread turned from lilitalienboi16 question 'does being chosen not necessarily mean you are an overcomer then?', to the 'free will'. Was it by accident?

In my experience there are a number of train stations one must pass, in one's journey from the Free Will end of the town to No Such Thing on the other side of the town. One of the last stumbling blocks I faced was the question, But why does God ask us to make choices, even  threatening dire consequences, if He has already predetermined the outcome? In other words, to paraphrase RogerH, What is the point?

What helped me was the realisation that despite God's predetermination, at the time of me facing the choice, the will of God is unknown to me, being at that moment a matter of the future. (And Kat would rightly quote James 4:14, 'you do not know what tomorrow will bring' (ESV)).

Plus, I feel free to make my choice! For me, at that moment, it is a current, live and real life and death matter. Definitely not something predetermined or forced upon me. For 'my' choices in such a context, I believe I am accountable to God, as well as to myself and society. The fact that even my choices are predetermined, and my later discovery of its predetermination, simply does not enter into the equation at that moment.

Somebody, to me decisively, quoted Ray: 'True, circumstances beyond our control, which we do not see or even perceive, do cause us to MAKE a choice, but ... BUT, IN OUR OWN HEART AND MIND, WE MAKE THE CHOICE -- not someone else or something else.' And again: 'But "it's all GOD" Who is ACTUALLY doing it, isn't it? NO, YOU, ACTUALLY, ARE THE ACTIVE PARTICIPANT WHO IS DOING IT! God merely brings about the circumstances that INFLUENCE AND CAUSE YOU TO DO IT!' -- The key, I believe, is in the fact that we do not know next moment (it is hidden from us), and our perceived sense of freedom.

One day we will be like Him! There is something that is being formed 'in us' or that God is making 'of us', and it is not our physical shape.

To him who overcomes I will give of the secret manna, and I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name, of which no one has knowledge but he to whom it is given (Rev 2:17 BBE). Talk about unique, individual experience! 'Only the one who receives that name will know what it is' (Rev 2:17 NIrV).

Our 'new name' will signify our experience of evil, our victory over evil, and our becoming like God by being no longer tempted by evil. But the big question is, What goes into that name? How is our character chiselled out, if the course is predetermined by God? I am persuaded that it is our choices that play a crucial part in the formation of our 'new name'.

I love chess. One of the training facilities offered by one chess site is the option to play through a chess game between two grandmasters and guess what one grandmaster played in a particular position. You win or lose points according to your choices. After you make your choice, grandmaster's choice is revealed and you are able to compare and learn, and get ready for the next move.

Two interesting parallels emerge. 1/ I am, as the game progresses, given my score, reflecting my choices (my level of play). 2/ Never do my choices alter the course of the game (that was played many moons ago). In other words, it is a 'preset course' that I am 'running'.

Another two parallels should be noted. 1/ I do not become a GM (grandmaster) after a series of, say, five in a row GM moves, simply because soon after I also make second rate moves plus some blunders! 2/ The 'future' becomes the 'present' after I have been given GM choice in that particular situation.

Every day in all our lives the will of the Master is being revealed in the actual unfolding of the events. What was an enigma only a few moments earlier is resolved in the actual events that pass into history. For David history was but an unfolding of the mighty acts of Yahweh (Psalm 111). The task for us is, I believe, to learn the will of God in the daily flow of the events which (as they become the history) reveal the will of God.

My choices are actually 'me' because they define who I am in I Am. The fact that we all along the way experience deception (as my 92 year old Dad would say, We face deception from Genesis to Revelation) is the very spice of life in the experience of evil ordained by God in love.

Our choices are all important, not for the sake of the ultimate salvation (which was not left to us to decide) but in forming our unique, heavenly name (or character). I believe Kat was on the money when she said, 'These experiences that we are having by living and making choices builds within us a character... it will produce all of these unique individuals that will make up a glorious family as a[n] outcome'!

None of these analogies are fullproof, but the idea of a 'guided tour' comes to mind. We go on a predetermined tour, but we have an experience of our own.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Wonone,

Time and future can well be hinged together by as you say, "the will of God, is unknown...being at that moment, a matter of the future." This can be supported by the Holy Spirit who prays for us in groaning sounds we do not understand.

God neither ventures backwards or forwards but is pivoted AS, Sovereign unchanging, changelessness.

In the words of Paul, God creates a time called NOW. Jesus points to having no care for the future as even the sparrows and hairs on our heads are accounted and highly valued.

The secret manna and white stone is given in the chamber of ALONENESS I dare to say, where time has stopped. Ray's paper, PRAYING BY GOD'S RULES http://bible-truths.com/praying.htm brings to light,  that Jesus made such communion with Abba, alone, not on parade or supported by fellowship.

God approved approval is best.

How else could Ray have written :

I Believe that the Holy Scriptures are God's Authorized Biography, and 

I Believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is God's Authorized Autobiography http://bible-truths.com/Creed.htm


You say that you are persuaded that our choices play a crucial part in the formation of our 'new name'. Of course. Our PREFERENCES for this or that have finally to focus on preferring only God all the way and in every matter of choice set before us before our name converges with His, as in the life of Christ, who Ray reveals is the Autobiography of the Biography. 

To be like HIM offers no handles to hang anything upon, no safety ropes, just free fall, fall for God.   Ray's "creed",  likewise offers no formulas, no directives, no judgements and no sentiments. Just plain straight talk that closes any door to assumptions or speculations.

As HE IS, so are we, in the world.

For me, Time is just a sentiment for those who want to argue, resist or refuse the passage of time being swallowed up into Eternity. 

Arc