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[Gina]

I wish those who unsettle you would emasculate themselves! (Galatians 5:12)

Paul was very annoyed (at the very least! because he sounds pretty angry to me!) by the things that people were doing to shake up the faith of the believers when he wrote those words because he was concerned for the church at Galatia.  They were like his own children.

I just thank God that he wrote those words.  Paul was so real.  Like when he got in Peter's face and told him off in front of everyone because he was angry that Paul was separating himself from the believers (because he was worried about what the Jews would think of him and his faith in Jesus Christ).  Paul was a firecracker.  He was small but he packed a punch.

But if I say things like that or think things like that, is it wrong?  For instance, many times I've wished those who come in here and pretend they're someone they're not to gain an advantage over me in the name of "love," (and there have been one or two, possibly more) would be humbled or taken to task.  I get so flipping angry when I think about how they have lied right to my face and absolutely refuse to be truthful with me.  Is that wrong of me to think those things?  I personally don't believe so.  That is not to say that I don't pray for these people, but I admit I am hardly praying for them when I'm in that frame of mind where I just wish they would "go all the way and grrrr themselves."  lol

Have any of you ever thought things like that, and then felt sorry for thinking them?  Because Paul does not apologize for it.  And when Jesus was taking certain of the Pharisees to task, He didn't apologize for the things he said either.  Does anyone have a problem with the words of Paul?  Or believe that there is a contradiction there in that one minute we're told to love our enemies and then we read where Jesus and Paul say things that don't appear to be loving of their enemies at all.  Am I confused about what it means to love my enemies?  I mean, Jesus said, temptations will come but whoa to the one through whom they come; it would be better if a millstone were hung around their neck and they were cast into the deepest part of the sea.  And then He said, so if your right hand causes you offense, cut it off.  It would be better to enter the Kingdom of Heaven maimed...

Should Paul have not wished the things he wished?  Was he not showing love for the enemies of that church in Galatia? 

I'm more of a call it like you see it kind of gal, and I rarely pull punches; except for when I'm at work, then I know to keep my mouth shut because I don't write my own paycheck.  And I need to eat.  But when I'm not at work and someone tries to "carry me off..." and I find out, I get so angry!  Because they know they're doing wrong. They know they are.  And yet I care about these people at the same time, not all of them admittedly.  Not yet, and that's the God's honest truth. It just makes me so sad to think that people can just lie right to my face and pretend that they love me when then don't.  It saddens me, not in a "oh pity me" kind of way, but I feel sorry for them!  Because I know what's coming for them if they keep going the way they're going.  (Because I've been there done that.)

But I can so identify with Paul there (which is not to say that I have not been one who needed to be castrated or have a millstone hung around my neck and cast into the deepest part of the sea, for God knows I have).  Or is the "loving" or right thing to be patient and not say anything but to pray for people who want to screw me over for their own base advantage and never think a cross thought?  Because Paul said those things.  Was he wrong for thinking and wishing and wanting those things?  Did he learn later on that thinking those things was not "loving" or that he was angry and yet sinning?

[gregorydc]

Hi Gina,
  Two cents here. I believe Jesus was angry at people doing wrong, when they knew what was the right thing to do.  And maybe Paul also. It is hard to pray for your enemies when" ye are yet carnal" except for the "make it bloody" prayer. I know exactly where you come from Gina, I hate liars and thieves, they are one and the same to me, and they get to me just the same. I get so angry,I truly want to hurt people for these things, then I try my best to pray for them, but not always the best prayer probably. I also talk to my friends, brothers and sisters here for help, that almost always works, because God works through them.
  When I was a young lad of about 8 or 9 I seemed to get into fights about every day. People would make fun of my name and religion. I was called Jew boy for a long time until it came to me that Jesus was also a Jew. So out blurted "thank you, did you know Jesus was a Jew too?"  That's when a lot of that nonsense stopped, along with the fighting.
  Gina, God doesn't want you to be angry all the time, or lonely,or spiteful, or bitter,or other anti- words. He wants you to love your neighbor, but he is also Gracefully training you to be a better individual by showing you how bad it can be. I know it is a difficult process, because I still blow my top as well. I know you and I will get better, everything in its turn, it is Gods plan after all!  I will continue to pray for you my dear friend, for Gods mercy to come upon you, but maybe it already has by what I have read. You will be fine. God bless!
Greg

[adiamondintheson]

This is really GOOD!!!! 
Dennis and I have been studying Rays articles... and this is a subject we went through just recently...
Here is the link on the Transcripts page:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3719.0.html

We strongly urge that you read this as it clarified for us how we should love our neighbor as ourselves.... The whole article is awesome... and it may serve to clarify "Brotherly Love" as it did for us.
Love you all
Dennis & Connie

[adiamondintheson]

Shorty...
This is another transcript from an audio that Ray did that we feel helps to clarify what loving your neighbor is all about.  We have just taken an excerpt from it, as it is rather lengthy... but we feel helps explain the difference between between being judgemental, loving your neighbor as yourself, etc. is all about. 

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=11521.0

Ray stated:

WE MUST FORGIVE EVERYONE OR OUR WORSHIP IS IN VAIN

Mark 11:25  And when you stand praying, forgive, if you have aught against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
v. 26  But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

In other words, you might as well not be worshipping at all. That’s dead in the water, if you’ve got a grudge or hold bad feelings towards people.

Now when I say hold bad feelings, that’s where you wish bad on people or you hope they get theirs or something like that. It doesn’t mean you can’t think about what they are. I call a spade a spade and people hate me for doing that. I’ve had more than five or ten, twenty or thirty or forty Christians and ministers say, ‘Ray what are you doing, you name names.’ I said, duh. Jesus Christ named names, Paul named names. Paul said the copper smith really did me dirty. What about the loving John?  Third John, it’s less than a half a page in the Bible, less than half a page and do you know what it centers around? The pride of Diotrephes.

3John 1:9  I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes (that carnal minded jerk), who loves to have the preeminence among them, received us not.

John named names didn’t he. But if I do it… I don’t condemn these people, I just tell what they are.

Wait until you see my article on ‘23 Minutes in Hell.’ I mean I have to constrain myself, because I tell you I am going to blow that thing out of the sky. I would love for that to get on U-Tube. But I have no ill feelings towards Bill Wiese, that something horrible happens in his life or I hope he gets to really go to hell that he says everybody else is going to, no I don’t wish that on him. But I am going to expose him and I am going to name names, you bet I am.

Hope this helps...
Dennis & Connie

[Dave in Tenn]

Excellent articles, Connie and Dennis.  What a perfect answer and challenge to each of us.  Thanks.   

[Gina]

Thank you Connie and Dennis. 

[Gina]

Hi Gina,
  Two cents here. I believe Jesus was angry at people doing wrong, when they knew what was the right thing to do.  And maybe Paul also. It is hard to pray for your enemies when" ye are yet carnal" except for the "make it bloody" prayer. I know exactly where you come from Gina, I hate liars and thieves, they are one and the same to me, and they get to me just the same. I get so angry,I truly want to hurt people for these things, then I try my best to pray for them, but not always the best prayer probably. I also talk to my friends, brothers and sisters here for help, that almost always works, because God works through them.
  When I was a young lad of about 8 or 9 I seemed to get into fights about every day. People would make fun of my name and religion. I was called Jew boy for a long time until it came to me that Jesus was also a Jew. So out blurted "thank you, did you know Jesus was a Jew too?"  That's when a lot of that nonsense stopped, along with the fighting.
  Gina, God doesn't want you to be angry all the time, or lonely,or spiteful, or bitter,or other anti- words. He wants you to love your neighbor, but he is also Gracefully training you to be a better individual by showing you how bad it can be. I know it is a difficult process, because I still blow my top as well. I know you and I will get better, everything in its turn, it is Gods plan after all!  I will continue to pray for you my dear friend, for Gods mercy to come upon you, but maybe it already has by what I have read. You will be fine. God bless!
Greg

No, not bitter.  Just being real.  We live in a world that is evil and dark and it's not getting any better, Greg.  Let's be real, okay?  I mean if you think I'm bitter or lonely or whatever, you don't know me at all.

[Gina]

 My God, have any of you read the book of Job?!  I don't pretend to have some holier than thou attitude.  I really do feel sorry for some people sometimes but not all the time, but I'm being honest.  Which is a lot more than I can say for some of you.  And I don't hold grudges.  But you have GOT to LEARN to be smart when dealing with certain people or they will cart you rear end off and take you down a road you really don't want to go down.  Is that not so?  Are we not to be careful and on guard?  Even Ray didn't associate with certain people to a great degree (thinking of his neighbor friend) because he knew the kind of junk that came out of their mouths.  Sure, forgiveness is great.  I forgive, I don't curse, but wishing they would be humbled and learn?  Are you saying that's a bad thing?

Whatever, I'll take these things to God.  Just never mind you guys.  Thanks for judging me as bitter and lonely and unforgiving, anyway. 

"Watch yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke (REBUKE) him, and if (IF!!) he repents, forgive him."  (Luke 17:3)  Am I misreading this?

[gregorydc]

Gina,
  I was not meaning those things to hurt your feelings or make you feel bad about anything! I apologize if I have offended you in any way. I wasn't pointing those words directly at you just words in general. I am sorry you misunderstood what I was trying to say, please forgive me.
Greg

[Patric]

*seeing my need Spiritually* Increase my faith Jesus.

[loretta]

OMG, I get it!    There are some people in my life that I cannot absolutely stand!  I mean I cannot tolerate their deceiving, lying, cheating, arrogant, proud ways...  But I can agapao them with agape love, which enables me to be civil, kind, caring, without expecting anything in return.  But only by His grace, in His strength, with His agape love.  It doesn't mean I allow myself to be deceived.  But it does mean that I choose to agape love them with my eyes wide open.  As I abide in Him, He abides in me and His agape love flows through me.

Tks Dennis and Connie, for that link to Ray's teaching on Love.

Just one question though.  Do we have to philio everyone in church ( the elect ).  Sometimes that is tough! Guess others may find it hard to philio me, considering I'm still work in progress

[Dave in Tenn]

The "commandments" in the New Testament given by Paul and the other Apostolic writers are to φιλαδελφία philadelphia one another.  That is a brotherly love, mutual kindness and compassion, fondness.  Here's some places where that word is used:


Rom_12:10, 1Th_4:9, Heb_13:1, 2Pe_1:7 (2) 1Pe_1:22


So the question is "do we have to PHILEO our brothers?"  This word seems to me to mean more of a 'feeling' or an expression of a feeling.  Sometimes it is even translated "kiss"...not that that is always a good thing, because that is the way Judas "Loved on" Jesus when he marked Him for betrayal.  (check out http://bible-truths.com/kiss.htm -- The Kiss of Death paper)  And it is also used in Rev 22:15  "For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie..." and in  Mat 23:5-7  "But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi."  Surely THAT kind of PHILEO isn't what we are called to do.

Just me talking, but it seems more like a privilege than a commandment to have a deep, affectionate, and true love for another person.  In fact, that sort of mutual Love could be described as deeper and more heart-felt than the LOVE we ARE commanded to have.  Maybe it would be better to ask, "Do we GET to love..." rather than "Do we HAVE to love..."  Afterall, God both AGAPES and PHILEOS His Son and those He has given to Him.

So AGAPE both our neighbors and our enemies.  Have PHILADELPHIA for our brothers.  PHILEO whatever/whoever it is we PHILEO and let the Lord judge it as right or wrong, a good 'work' or a "bad work" to be purified or burned away.  Lastly, whatever LOVE you have, don't fake it.  We're not expected to be bosom buddies with anybody, and to find a true love or true friend is a treasure, not a burden.   

 

 

[loretta]

tks, Dave for that wisdom on philio love.

Lastly, whatever LOVE you have, don't fake it.  We're not expected to be bosom buddies with anybody, and to find a true love or true friend is a treasure, not a burden.   

I think the key is to be equally yoked, as Ray taught it. http://bible-truths.com/yoked.htm
We must be equally yoked in all our relationships, whether marriage, business or church.  I'm finding it very difficult to philio love my old church friends, especially those who insist on believing on 'hell and its torture chambers' and refusing to even listen to sound biblical reason.  I know they're spiritually blind, nonetheless.

By the way, do any of the forum members have fellowship (excluding family and forum )with others who share the truth or are we all lone rangers who have left the pack behind? 

[Kat]

Hi loretta,

By the way, do any of the forum members have fellowship (excluding family and forum )with others who share the truth or are we all lone rangers who have left the pack behind? 

I have made a few really good friends from people here at the forum, some I also met at conferences. We do not get to visit, but we keep in touch through pm's, emails or phone calls. These have developed into wonderful friendships that I feel very blessed to have. We discuss these truth and I do believe it has greatly helped us to progress in our understanding.

I would not hesitate to encourage others be open to those that you seem to have a connection with. It is not important to me to meet any of these people, I would like to, but that may not be possible. So I try to make the most of what we have.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Rene]

By the way, do any of the forum member have fellowship (excluding family and forum )with others who share the truth or are we all lone rangers who have left the pack behind? 

Hi Loretta,
 
I fellowship as often as I can with one member of the forum, although we live hundreds of miles apart.  Our friendship has grown steadily over the past 6 years and I feel blessed to be able to share the joys of this spiritual journey with someone of like mind.

There are a few other forum members that I have occasional conversations with and those are appreciated as well.

René 

[loretta]

Tks ALL for your encouragement.  I suppose none of us are spiritual lone rangers and God does afford us the kind of fellowship we need, even if it does not look like the 'church' as she has evolved today since the book of Acts.

Which brings me to my story, rather His(tory)

I've been a follower of Christ a little under a decade, having left the Roman Catholic church in which I was baptised and raised.  Feeling that I must do something on Sunday mornings, I promptly joined a nondenominational church for about a year where I enjoyed the camaraderie and spiritual highs!  As my husband hates believers and rabidly so (now I know why! , I eventually quit, but not before I was indoctrinated with alot of lies which are accepted as biblical truth.  Actually not all of it was attributed to the church I attended, but largely gleaned from Christian media, tv, books, net, et al.  But although I continued to fellowship loosely with Christian friends, I was largely in the wilderness, and God did meet me there.  To cut a long story short, He opened my eyes, showed me the error of what I believed, the biblical contradictions and the glaring, in your face abomination of desolation that has been set up in Christ's church today.  Along the way, He has stripped me of every vestige of Christian practice - works and prayer in the flesh, tithing, ministry, evangelism, in a way that, when I look back I marvel.  At the time, I wondered what was happening!  Then He led me to this forum and everything fell in place like a jigsaw puzzle.

When I left the RC church, I had BIG plans for the Lord, that my family would serve the Lord  (Joshua 24:2,15) that we would do ministry together, that we would be set apart for the Lord.  My elder girl was five at the time and I decided I would raise her a Christian.  I bought her several bibles, apologetics, bible story books and movies, taught her right from wrong, goaded her, pushed her, prised her, Sunday schooled her till she rebelled.  Now I have a sweet little Pharisee growing in my backyard!  Does anyone have any idea how I could weed her out?!  I’m determined not to repeat the mistake with my younger one!  I’ll let her grow wild (well, not quite) till the Lord decides to weed her out. I digress...

At some point I decided that I wanted out of the wilderness.  I didn't want to go back to church, so I looked around for a house group.  We were there for about a year, the girls and I loved it.  We were equally yoked, or so I thought, till the cracks began to show up.  The group were lately come out from the catholic church and had some weird beliefs - bad things would happen if you didn't pray, sprinkling of the blood on everything, much demon talk, holy gossip etc.  So we disengaged.  About the same time I was introduced to Frank Viola's book 'Pagan Christianity' and 'Reimagining Church'.  Also Joshua Hills, 'Some Assembly Required' - on the net till it was mysteriously taken down.  What eyeopeners!

Finally, I'm learning to be content where God wants me to be.  Nothing that I can see is happening in my life.  Whom the Son sets free is free indeed! John 8:36  We rest in the knowledge that God is still building His church.

[Dave in Tenn]

Thanks for sharing, Loretta.  I think, like you, a lot of what I've learned these last few years has served to explain to me what in the world had already happened to me.  It's a strange work the Lord is doing, and I'm happy to have a glimpse of His purpose in doing things His way.

[Dennis Vogel]

Finally, I'm learning to be content where God wants me to be.

   

[loretta]

I just realized that I had not introduced myself as per the rules of the forum and my story ought to have been posted elsewhere.  Guess I was in a hurry to get started!   My apologies.

[indianabob]

Not to worry Loretta, it couldn't have been more interesting.

I'm waiting patiently for the rest of the story and I hope you will share as much as is comfortable.
Love and hugs, Ole Indiana Bob