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[Ricky]

We all know man,the women and the beast were created on the 6th day. He created them male and female. That would be 1 thousand years our time, they were populating the earth. Then God rested on the 7Th day, another thousand years of them populating the planet. So man was doing this for 2 thousand years. What was the world like then, they did not have a Bible from God. And that would mean they had millions of gods, and this world would have been one evil mess of everything. So now what did God do next, after the 7Th day. He decided to change the world with Adam. The very first man of God. This is how we got the Bible through Moses, David,etc. God probably did not create the people on the 6 day the same way He did Adam. We will never know. The 6 day people did not have the spirit of God, Adam did. Cain met his wife outside the garden of Eden that says it all right there. Just my opinion.  Ricky

[John from Kentucky]

We all know man,the women and the beast were created on the 6th day. He created them male and female. That would be 1 thousand years our time, they were populating the earth. Then God rested on the 7Th day, another thousand years of them populating the planet. So man was doing this for 2 thousand years. What was the world like then, they did not have a Bible from God. And that would mean they had millions of gods, and this world would have been one evil mess of everything. So now what did God do next, after the 7Th day. He decided to change the world with Adam. The very first man of God. This is how we got the Bible through Moses, David,etc. God probably did not create the people on the 6 day the same way He did Adam. We will never know. The 6 day people did not have the spirit of God, Adam did. Cain met his wife outside the garden of Eden that says it all right there. Just my opinion.  Ricky

And a whopper of an opinion you have.

There are not two Scriptures that prove either the 6th day or the 7th day were each 1,000 years long.  In fact, the 7th day did not end-- there is no evening and morning the 7th day.

Then again, all of the creation account could be an allegory, a story.

Whether or not the creation account is literal or a story, we do not know at this time.

The most important things are the great spiritual truths that the creation Scriptures teach us.  Remember Jesus said that His words were spirit.

[Kat]

Hi Ricky,

I believe the story of creation is spoken in allegory terms to hide the meaning and the great truth that lie underneath. But I do think it is a real story and real events, that portray through symbolism God's plan.

There is nothing wrong with looking at scientific studies to gain some information about the past. Archaeologists have dated quite a few digs around the world to put man much further back than a couple thousand years before Adam and Eve.

You wonder what were those pre-Adam people like... well we know quite a lot about native tribes of people that have lived before Christiandom got to them and forced there conversion and change into what they considered acceptable (and, oh yeah, to save their souls from hell). There are even a few left that have not been totally adsorbed into the modern society of today.

Yes I believe that Adam was the start of God revealing Himself to mankind through 'His people." And with Adam it certainly seems to have been a huge jump forward in progress, with agriculture and all other forms of advancement he taught, like farming and mining, which brought about the advancement of the social structure in so many ways. This was the way God brought the world forward into what He had determined for it to be.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[indianabob]

I think we are making lots of assumption here without any real proof. Archaeology is filled with imagination and error.
Cain had children, but why not with one of his sisters? Both their genetics were perfect as created by God.
Why must we assume that ADAM became superior to his predecessor in intellect. Is it because of the myth of an unintelligent "ape man" from which mankind developed? Bad logic! Animal life doesn't evolve into superior life forms. If anything animal life remains the same or is degraded in reproduction after origin.

It is just as likely that Adam/Eve were perfect in all their physical attributes and that mankind has deteriorated since that time. It is also likely that humans had a strong curiosity and desire to explore and invent. Why not build small pyramids in the first century, the second etc? They had food and great health and tons of time on their hands. They could produce a new generation every 16 years. Apply logarithmic math to that starting point. Didn't need baby sitters, kids could run loose, food was free, diapers not needed etc. etc.

If Adam had to DEVELOP into a sentient being, what about Jesus the 2nd Adam. Did God have to take time/years to develop a perfect son to become savior? Or did God get it right the first time? I don't see anything in God's autobiography to show that God has to practice or learn how to build a human. I see a lot of evidence that God has to get it right the first time OR it doesn't work at all. God didn't have a "back up plan" in the event Lord Jesus fell short of the glory of God. Right??

What ever God creates is perfect or complete for the task required. Adam was perfect, physically, mentally. Satan was perfect for his assignment too.

Just some thoughts to ponder, Indiana bob

[Ricky]

Cain was kicked out of the garden of eden for murdering his brother Able. Cane said this is unbearable they will kill me. Then Cain met his wife, how would that be his sister, and where does the bible say Cain and able had sisters. I cannot believe God would allow incest to happen when there was no need for that. I have always been told that if it is against mans law, it is automaticly against Gods law. Pot being legal now in Colorado, how does they sit with God.

[indianabob]

Hi Friend Ricky,

I don't want to get into a debate about Genesis, but I think we can use BT articles to show that God is a planner who always accomplishes ALL His will for mankind. Often God does not immediately share His plans with His creation, so we tend to guess what God has in mind and everyone has their own way of seeing things. That's one of the advantages of BT because Ray Smith took the time and effort to try to answer all possible question within the scope of scripture and what God's spirit gave him.

Just a couple of personal comments if you please.
I don't believe that Cain was kicked out of the paradise of EDEN. Adam and Eve were sent out before they had children.
Cain on the other hand was exiled from his parents homeland or area and allowed to start over in another place. That doesn't prove that he couldn't visit again years later. There was no one to keep him out and God warned his relatives not to kill him.

As far as where he got his wife, we don't know how old Cain and Able were when the murder occurred. People lived for centuries back then and it may be supposed that people, especially men, retained the ability to reproduce for centuries as well. Therefore the people of 'NOD' may have been the direct descendants of Adam and Eve.
NOTE: the time gap between Gen 4:16 and 4:17 could have been decades.
The scripture mentions this event only to lead us to understand that ENOCH was the heir of Cain. And that there were by then enough people to require the building of a CITY. So that could be several hundred at least.

I think it is quite apparent that Adam and Eve had girls. It isn't necessary to spell it out. No girls, no babies.
We seem to have quite a lot of misunderstanding regarding incest. Perhaps we can explore that more carefully.

I don't agree that God enforces man's incest laws among God's people. In any case there would not have been any genetic reason to prohibit reproduction between siblings back then. The gene structure was fresh and perfect.

I don't believe that God prohibits alcohol, medicine drugs, large sweet drinks or inhaling smoke. These are men's rules and have nothing to do with God's leading of His people into righteousness.

Let's discuss these matters carefully and see what we can learn.

Respectfully, Indiana bob

[Ricky]

Hi Bob, Bible says God created, formed, whatever, man and the beast on the 6th day. Man must be 230 million years old then. Dinosaurs go back that far, are they not considered to be the beast as well, how could this be possible. It took 230 million years for man to be where he is at today ? Something is not right here with this. Man could not have been here with the dinosaurs, I can't even outrun my dog let alone a Dino.

[indianabob]

Good morning Ricky,
You make a good point about being able to outrun Dino, but I only have to outrun the guy behind me, RIGHT?

However, please remember that the age of Dinosaurs is PURE speculation.
Also the published personality/nature of dinosaurs is speculation. Science just doesn't know....
Consider the little boys of Thailand who lead elephants around by the trunk and work them all day moving things for profit. Think of playing with "killer whales" in the wild. Swimming with sharks etc. There is absolutely no reason to believe that man and dinosaurs could not peacefully coexist; even if some dinosaurs were predator and others were prey. Man is nothing if not adaptable. Is anything impossible for God?
And of course you are right to question why it would have taken mankind hundreds of years, let alone thousands of years to become a builder and an engineer. Once again science limits the type of mind that God gave to the first man, whenever that happened to be in the history of time.

Genesis tells us that mankind is being led to an existence similar to that of God. Having great powers of creativity and self control as the very sons of the creator, such that angels will serve as our willing assistants in God's operation of the cosmos.
So it seems obvious to me, that God is giving mankind a practical experience in the art of creation using natural materials. First the natural, next the spiritual.

Comment please, Indiana Bob

[Dennis Vogel]

KJV Tit 1:2  In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

CLV Tit 1:2 in expectation of life eonian, which God, Who does not lie, promises before times eonian,

I hope it's clear that God just does not lie, but CANNOT lie!

If all the geological evidence says there were dinosaurs then they existed. Else that would make God a lair.

There is plenty of evidence that man as we know him has been around at least 40,000 years. But if the evidence shows 100,000 years (well after the dinosaurs) then so be it.

Gen 4:15  And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

Who are these "any?" His parents? No, the "any" were not Cain's parents.

Did God wait several hundred years before He confronted Cain? No, God confronted Cain right away. There was no time to generate the "any" to populate the earth. Clearly there were other humans on earth before Cain murdered his brother.

Ray has spoken on this. Can someone please find it?

[Ricky]

Hi Dennis, God could have populated the earth outside the garden of Eden, which was protected by angels. The 6 day people were outside that garden. Cain found a wife of them which would explain the difference kinds of people in the world today. Where does it say Adam and Eve were outside the garden of Eden.

[Dennis Vogel]

Where does it say Adam and Eve were outside the garden of Eden.

We know they left the garden, but we do not know when they first left for sure.

Gen 6:4

(CLV) Now the distinguished come to be in the earth in those days, and, moreover, afterward, coming are those who are sons of the elohim to the daughters of the human, and they bear for them. They are the masters, who are from the eon, mortals with the name.

(JPS)  The Nephilim were in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bore children to them; the same were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown.

(KJV)  There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

(Rotherham) The giants, were in the each in these days, and also, after that, when the sons of God began to go in unto the daughters of men, and sons were born to them, the same, were the heroes that were from age-past times the men of renown.

Strong's says: bully, tyrant, giant. Concordant calls them "distinguished" which would fit what Strong says.

Native Americans have been here a long time: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_long_have_native_Americans_been_living_in_the_u.s

I know Ray talked about this. I hope it wasn't just to me alone, but publicly. Anyone remember?

[wat]

Ray talks about it a bit in the Nashville 2008 postscript.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9130.0.html

Under the heading "First Humans."

I think he's talked about it a few other places too, in a few emails I think.

[Kat]

Here are a few places Ray had spoke on pre-Adam man.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,10158.0/nowap.html -------

Was adam & eve the first and only two people on earth in the beginning or were there other people too?


Dear Maureen:  I'm afraid your question is not clear.  What do you mean by "in the beginning?"  At any

point in time if there are "other people" in the world, it CANNOT be "the beginning."  If you mean: "Were

Adam and Eve the first and only humans on the earth at the end of the creation day [period] six," then I

would answer, "No."  Humankind appears to go back tens of thousands of years further than the six

thousand or so years of genealogy attributed to Adam in the book of Genesis.  Before Adam there was

"no man TO TILL the soil," not that there was "no man" period.  Did Cain marry someone other than his

own sister?  Who was Cain afraid would kill him before there were any other named humans on earth

besides his parents? Etc.   Listen to my tapes on this subject from the Nashville Conference.

God be with you,

Ray


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12719.0.html ------------------

RAY'S COMMENT:  Chapter two does not contradict chapter one. The order in chapter one is plants, animals, and then humanity.  Is this not the order found in the geologic table?  Chapter two does not recount the creation of humanity, but rather the creation of Adam and Eve.  In Genesis 1:26 God "made" [Heb: 'asah'] male and female. In Gen. 2:6 God "formed" [Heb: 'yatsar'] Adam--two difference Hebrew words: two different formations.  Notice that it doesn't say in chapter 2 verse 3 that there was no man on earth at this time, but rather that there was "no man to till the ground."  There were men, but they were hunters/gatherers, not farmers.  God is now going to make a more advance human to cultivate and farm the land. 

The phrase "dress it and keep it" in verse 15, is "tend and cultivate." God is teaching Adam to be a farmer. When in doubt, read a proper translation.  God did not create the animals AFTER He created Adam. Notice a proper translation from the Concordant Literal Old Testament: "And furthermore, Ieu Alueim ['the Lord God'] HAVING FORMED [yes, having ALREADY formed, millions of years in the past] all field life and every flyer of the heavens."  God is bringing to Adam the Animal species which He had already created millions of years in the past, to have Adam give names to them.  This obviously took years.  Some, such as the dinosaurs (the reptilian 'tannyin, tannyim,' of Gen. 1:21 had already been extinct for many millions of years. These were decidedly not, "great whales," as the King James erroneously translates it).

It was from this first group of humanity that Cain apparently got his wife, cities were built, etc.

Chapter two does not cover the creation of plant life. That began hundreds of millions of years earlier.  What God is doing in Chapter two is He is planting a garden for the man to cultivate, farm, and harvest. The word "planted" in Gen. 2:8 is from the Hebrew meaning "to sprout." God "sprouted" newly planted trees, etc.  They were mere buds, which would require years to produce fruit to eat. What was Adam expected to eat until these trees matured?


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13694.0.html -------

Thank you for your interest in our site.  It is not possible for me to answer your questions
in a short email.  Hundreds of thousands of scientists have written many thousands of
books dealing with the subjects you bring up.  I will try to steer you in a direction, however,
which may help your faith rather than destroy it.

The first couple of chapters of Genesis are written in such a way that many of the major
concepts of biological evolution could be possible.  For example,

Gen. 1:9-10 present the earth in the same configuration as do many geological scientists.
The land was all in one mass, which answers to the theory of Pangaea.

Gen. 1:11, God says "Let the EARTH bring forth grass (vegetation, green, algae).

From. 1:12 to 25, all things produced "after their kind," an absolute law of biology.

In Gen. 1:20 God again says, "Let the WATERS bring forth abundantly the moving
creature that has life..."  He didn't say He "created," but let the "waters" do it.  Also
God didn't say He created "fish," but rather "moving creatures" which could indicate
extremely small or microscopic simple life.  Also notice that God didn't say He "created
birds," but rather "fowl."  Gen. 7:14 clearly shows that there must be a difference between
"fowls" and "birds."  This word "fowl" comes from a Hebrew word that simply means, "to
fly," and there are millions of "bugs" and things that can fly.

The point is, however, regardless of how or by what processes God used in creation, He
was behind all of it.  The sea would have never brought forth little swimming creatures
except that first God COMMANDED that the waters do so.

So did God use a process of creation that could be compared to some of the theories
of biological evolution?

From the description of the "male and female" that God created in Gen. 1:26, there is no
indication that they could speak and/or had any particular skills, other than to live off of
the land and stay alive.  It was "Adam" which God spoke to and who spoke back to God.
And it was Adam that had the ability to "cultivate" the Garden, as apparently the first
male and females did not know HOW to "till the ground" (Gen. 1:7). So maybe there was
an era in which humanity was not as developed as modern homo sapiens.  Etc.

[Ricky]

Nice post Kat. Ray says Adam and God were talking to each other, how is that possible, if no man has ever heard Gods voice.

[Kat]

Hi Ricky,

God of the OT that spoke to Adam was the Son that became Jesus Christ, not the Father whom He spoke of as not being seen or heard.

John 5:37  `And the Father who sent me Himself hath testified concerning me; ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor His appearance have ye seen;

God of the OT was the Word or Spokesman for the Father.

John 1:1  In the beginning the Word already existed; the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

We can see in numerous places in Scripture where the OT God spoke to people and in several places where He did appear to people, so we can understand how He did appear and speak to Adam.

Gen 18:1  And Jehovah appeared unto him (Abraham) by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
Gen 18:13  And Jehovah said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, who am old?

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[acomplishedartis]

Sooo much to think about...

[Ricky]

You got that right Moises. We know that God spoke and did things to prove who He is ?? back then. What about now? Today. Look what we are left with. Nothing from Him. Thousands of years of garbage from man. If it has taken this long to know what we know (which may be nothing) about God. We all gonna be in for a big surprise, that's what's gonna happen.

[Ricky]

Bible says the heart is deceitful. How could you trust your heart. I don't.

[Kat]

Ricky, in the OT Christ was not yet offered and the Spirit that came at Pentecost unto salvation. So in the OT the Spirit of God did deal with people the way He needed to for them to serve Him at that time, but not for salvation.

Now things are different, Jesus Christ comes inside and unites with our spirit giving us Life and works with our enter most being to teach us the way of righteousness. Jesus Christ is our food and drink in a spiritual sense.

John 14:6  Jesus said to him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but by Me.

John 15:26  "But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me.

John 6:53  So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
54  Whoever feeds on My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
55  For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.
56  Whoever feeds on My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
57  As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on Me, he also will live because of Me.
58  This is the Bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate and died. Whoever feeds on this Bread will live forever."

Now this is a deeper truth that comes in time, think of the meaning behind the words that are being spoken. But most will not comprehend.

John 6:66  After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with Him.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[acomplishedartis]

back to the subject...

I am learning along the way,
I know this topic might be of little consequence for many, but eventually everything is connected... so this thing is important

I do have a few sincere questions

-does what applies to Adam (regarding death and salvation), would also apply to ''the distinguished''?

-why does Eve is called ''the mother of all living''?