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Author Topic: WHY THE MISSIONAL MOVEMENT WILL FAIL  (Read 7510 times)

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loretta

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WHY THE MISSIONAL MOVEMENT WILL FAIL
« on: June 09, 2013, 01:47:18 PM »

Mike Breen writes at http://www.vergenetwork.org/2011/09/14/mike-breen-why-the-missional-movement-will-fail/

Qte
It’s time we start being brutally honest about the missional movement that has emerged in the last 10-15 years: Chances are better than not it’s going to fail.
That may seem cynical, but I’m being realistic. There is a reason so many movements in the Western church have failed in the past century: They are a car without an engine. A missional church or a missional community or a missional small group is the new car that everyone is talking about right now, but no matter how beautiful or shiny the vehicle, without an engine, it won’t go anywhere.
 
So what is the engine of the church? Discipleship. I’ve said it many times: If you make disciples, you will always get the church. But if you try to build the church, you will rarely get disciples.

If you’re good at making disciples, you’ll get more leaders than you’ll know what to do with. If you make disciples like Jesus made them, you’ll see people come to faith who didn’t know Him. If you disciple people well, you will always get the missional thing.
Unqte

I wonder what Ray would have to say about this missional thing.  How does evangelism translate against the truth as we know it - that God is sovereign, that the whole world will be saved, either before or after the lake of fire.  What did Jesus mean when he gave us the 'Great Commission'?  Is this 'missional thing' something more than just living out the gospel of Jesus Christ?
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onelovedread

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Re: WHY THE MISSIONAL MOVEMENT WILL FAIL
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2013, 02:48:13 PM »

Did Jesus give US the Great Commission?
Is there such a thing as the "Great Commission" or is this another one of the concepts of Christendom?

On the same train of thought: 
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6142.0.html

"... Christ did not convert one man during his whole ministry, not one, you all know that right? He never converted a single human being.
People will send me emails... 'How many people have you converted Ray?' I say none, how many have you converted? Only God can covert somebody.  Jesus Christ did not convert a single man..."

What is the Gospel of the Kingdom . . . Mobile Conference 2005
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Patric

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Re: WHY THE MISSIONAL MOVEMENT WILL FAIL
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2013, 04:35:38 PM »

There were 120 followers that had gathered or were left following Christ at his death and just before Peter preached and 3,000 were baptized. I wonder how many thousands if not millions of people heard Christ speak or witnessed miracles.

Once upon a time I believed in the great commission and in fact the congregation I went to when I was in college had a dream of worldwide evangelism..... the ICOC (International Church of Christ).....to make disciples.....and it grew fast.....very fast.....

The dream was for each disciple to make at least one disciple a year(some could do much more than that)....that way it is like a doubling each time and in about 33 years you will have over 8 billion. This did beat the fact that a preacher or a machine making priest or pastor or whatever title we gave could make one a day if doing all the work 365 a year....so each christian was a disciple having responsibility.
2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024, 2048, 4096, 8198, 16,396, 32,792, 65,584, 131,168, 262,336, 524,672, 1,049,344, 2,098,688, 4,197,376, 8,394,752, 16,789,504, 33,579,088, 67,158,016, 134,316,000, 268,632,000, 537,726,000,1,074,528,000, 2,149,056,000, 4,298,112,000, 8,596,225,000, 17,192,451,000 (at this point surely the world will be converted!)

Exponentially one can see that this plan is better then one super converter! For instance if the leader or the Evangelist could make one 'christian' a day 365x33 is only 12,045 and he would be very very tired!  2 to the 33rd power is is 33 years and if this simple plan would be followed. Sure sounded good on paper. I have to ask myself.....why then only making one disciple a year has this never been done as a goal since Christ died and left 2000+ years ago? Why in about a generations time after Jesus left the Earth did not the great commission fill up with 'christians'? By the way.....I did baptize a few in water myself (a few women that were in a group I led of bible talk leader I was at that time)....but none that I personally met or studied and converted with my own life. I was what they called a dried up tree....bearing no fruit! Boy was I spiritually dead! This certainly must have been an indication of my heart....and shown that I was certainly not being blessed. My first 3 years nothing! So I left and attempted suicide....when that failed.....4 years of major clinical depression later I came back!!!! LOL talk about building ones house on the sand!

Again no converts but a letter had circulated among all the members world wide that we were too hard lined and people (TIME magazine had an in-depth study of our movement and we were according to their words at the time "unbesmerched with sexual or financial scandals") soon after in the years to follow were abusing power, and money, as well as divorces and or sex issues.  It was at this time that my spiritual house fell with a great crash. Not only that but my physical home foreclosed, and my car was repossessed. I lost both jobs I had. Suddenly I was in debt and went 18 months without work. The church did not help me. In fact they did pay for one of my rent payments after I lost everything, while I was living in a small apartment, but the hoops I had to jump through to get even one months rent, were scrutinizing, humiliating, and I was let know that this better not happen again! All my years of tithing, and giving my time, and skills, and this was my return?

I sat in on a financial meeting of the church and found out that the benevolence fund was the smallest in the church!!!! That was next to the singles ministry which had absolutely nothing. So the Evangelist and his wife made 80k a year. Others who worked for or were on church staff did decent too. I began to see some things wrong.....I thought the biggest funds should be the poor ministry for sure. I told myself if I win the lottery I would fire them all and give the money away to those in need.....including the members that struggled.....and their were many single moms and those disabled or just in need.

 I knew of those needs, because I spent most of my time serving and giving rides, watching kids.....running errands for single parents. I offered myself to do this full time. Was told no. I did all this with no job by the way. Yes that is right. NO INCOME. I had a car and 2 roomates. I was receiving 450 disability from the government. I seldom had gas money and or food but these things never lacked in my life. I was told once by one of the leaders that I needed a job.....because I was dating, and if I was going to raise a family and blah blah blah I needed to be bound to a job. This ruined my life once I got a job...the girlfriend left me....I began to take on debt and lost time to help those in the church! But I digress.....

This plan seemed the best I had heard. Make one disciple a year that is all each one would need to do to make this goal. Within 30-35 years the world would be won for Christ. The Great Commission. Needless to say. I never converted one. I knew many who also had not. But I did know of a few that were dunking converts like donuts. They were so spiritual!

This part I added a few hours later after finding more info......I will call this my dung statements as if anyone cares:

Some of the stats from what I once was a part of.....but I was very 'bad' at it! 1990-93 (94-97 wilderness time if you will....Major Clinical Depression) 1997-2000 2001-2007

Unique to the Boston Movement, not only did disciples make disciples, but churches planted churches. The Boston Church planted each of the “pillar churches,” which planted other churches, which planted still others. By 2001, at the time of his sabbatical (Kip Mckean), there were almost 400 churches in 171 nations and a combined Sunday morning attendance of about 200,000. 42 churches had more than 1,000 in attendance and 15 churches had more than 3,000 in attendance. The largest international congregation was the Manila Church at 6,000 in attendance. These numbers were staggering when compared with the Mainline Churches of Christ or any denominational group. Never in history has any church growth movement ever spread as quickly and to so many nations.

Bible preaching, allowed the Spirit to take the gospel from one small dying church in Boston to become almost 400 churches in 171 of the 196 nations of the world by the year 2000! Then as this noble effort was being tragically decimated in 2002 and 2003, This upheaval embraced a reactionary “new and better vision” of congregations that were “so mature” that they no longer needed overseeing evangelists. Most also embraced consensus leadership in the local congregation with no “Lead Evangelist” – as the term “lead evangelist” is not found in the New Testament. At this time, a movement to eliminate a structured outreach (Bible Talks) and structured discipling (Discipleship Partners) arose. “Kip’s vision” of the evangelization of the nations in a generation was called “a good idea” yet “impossible.” Some began to label him as a “false teacher” for this dream, believing that the pressure on the churches to evangelize the world in a generation was the primary source of bitterness in many leaders and in many churches.

The ultimate demise of what was then known and revered as the International Church of Christ came in February 2003, when Henry Kriete, a hurting and former Mainline Church of Christ evangelist in London, released his letter entitled, Honest To God. In his letter, Kriete advocated “a time for anger and the overthrowing of temples: I believe the time is now.” The rebellion of some of the World Sector Leaders and all of the Kingdom Elders and Kingdom Teachers was consequently passed on to all the members. Thousands left God confused and angry. Other disciples quietly “walked away” to try to find “the same church elsewhere,” which proved to be in vain.

Still 3-4 years later before my house fell and crashed with the foundation on the sand.....so the internet and a man named L. Ray Smith helped me to see myself standing on the sand of the seashore.....it was here I began to build on the foundation of Christ. My dead spirit brought to life.....brought out of the missional movement to make disciples and ultimately following what seemed to be the truth. My eyes opened....my ears hearing. Father what is next my spirit cries out now. Amen
« Last Edit: June 09, 2013, 07:36:34 PM by Patric »
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: WHY THE MISSIONAL MOVEMENT WILL FAIL
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2013, 05:03:41 PM »

Don't fail to read the study that John linked to.  If you read it, you will likely be able to answer your own question.

Joh 13:13  Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
Joh 13:14  If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
Joh 13:15  For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
Joh 13:16  Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
Joh 13:17  If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.
Joh 13:18  I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

Joh 15:16  Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

I'll tell you a little story.

I spent my teenage and young adult years in a rapidly growing Southern Baptist church.  One day, there had apparently been a member (family or couple) who requested that the Pastor "dedicate" their new baby.  Southern Baptists don't baptize infants or very small children, but for whatever reason our Pastor decided to fulfill their request.  He had a brief prayer and simple 'ceremony' to "dedicate" this little child.  Of course, most people were moved by such a thing.  Before long, other people came forward to have THEIR babies and little children "dedicated" and soon enough it became a rather routine part of many worship services.

I have no doubt that there was grumbling and murmuring among some as we seemed to be becoming to much like Catholics or Lutherans.  And I also don't doubt that there were some who were concerned that if they didn't have their own babies "dedicated" similarly that the tykes would grow up to be drug addicts or strippers.

Regardless, eventually it was just another thing to "do".  I can't think of any movement in churchianity that ended well, even if it started well.

These questions come to mind from reading that text you  quoted: 

Does he know what Discipleship is?  "Don't drink, don't chew and don't dance with boys/girls who do"?

What does his 'message' have to do with the "world" he is trying to reach?  I doubt it is a "Universalist" message, but even if it were, does he understand where judgment begins?

I suspect it will "fail" because it is being led by people who don't believe, don't teach, and don't like the "great commission" which is the Father's Commission to His Son:  1Jn 4:13,14  Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Still, all is of God...and this "movement" will produce the results that the Father intends, and it doesn't much matter what Mike Breen intends with it.



 



 

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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Patric

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Re: WHY THE MISSIONAL MOVEMENT WILL FAIL
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2013, 08:32:53 PM »

Amen
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G. Driggs

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Re: WHY THE MISSIONAL MOVEMENT WILL FAIL
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2013, 09:37:26 PM »

Found this from Ray and thought it might help a little.

http://www.bible-truths.com/bible.htm

ADDING TO GOD’S WORD:

Just as surely as God warned against "adding to or taking from" His word, it has happened. There is overwhelming evidence and historical proof that the following portion of I John 5:7-8 iss not part of the original Greek manuscripts.

"…in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth…"

Also there is a mountain of historical evidence that this portion of the so-called "Great Commission" found in Matt. 28:19 is also not in any Scripture found in the first few centuries of both manuscripts or translations.

"…baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost"

In fact, it is an obvious and blatant contradiction of how the Apostles actually did baptize. They NEVER baptized into the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but always in the Name of Jesus ONLY. The Scriptures do not contradict; but some Bibles do.
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Patric

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Re: WHY THE MISSIONAL MOVEMENT WILL FAIL
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2013, 10:20:44 PM »

great help to me Gregg! WOW....reading and reading
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se7en

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Re: WHY THE MISSIONAL MOVEMENT WILL FAIL
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2013, 04:05:00 PM »

loretta,

I just recently came out of a non denominational (6 months ago) christian church and their big focus is on creating "disciples". Just to illustrate...

I understood their plan and it makes sense, they do a thing they call "wiki church" where you learn from everyone and everyone can make and host a bible cell group after going through "discipleship training".  During these hosted cell groups that disciples teach, they will pick out others within the cell group and encourage them to take the "discipleship training" so they can branch off and start their own cell group and talk about a christian book they just read or study the book of John, etc. etc.  add infinitum.

It's a neat plan, and it does work. But what it's doing is causing the same blind "disciple" to teach other blind "disciples" their doctrine. The truth is, they are disciples in the synagogue of satan, spreading thier father's lies even quicker. I was a part of this, and it's only by God's grace that I came out.

This is a HUGE movement right now in the religious church, or it was about 6 months ago before I left.
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~Se7en

lilitalienboi16

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Re: WHY THE MISSIONAL MOVEMENT WILL FAIL
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2013, 04:25:36 PM »

Great catch and reminder G.!

Thanks :)

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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

loretta

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Re: WHY THE MISSIONAL MOVEMENT WILL FAIL
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2013, 02:22:59 AM »

The great commission is the Father's commission to His Son? To be the Savior of the World?  Wow!  What a relief that we're not commissioned to be the saviors of the world. Not till the Lord returns, anyways. How did we read it so wrong?  I was looking up various translations of Mt 28:19, some say make disciples, others say teach the nations.

I've read the link to Ray's teaching on the gospel of the kingdom.  Pretty heavy stuff, got to reread it.  One clarification though.  Is the call to repent and believe the gospel for the church or the world?  Are we first chosen by God, then subjected to judgment and finally called to repent and believe the gospel.  Or are we chosen after we repent and believe the gospel?  Clearly, the latter is the bedrock of current missional movements.  If it is the former, then we know that those under judgment are chosen of God and we must pray that they will repent and believe the gospel.  We don't really bother about the rest of the world, except maybe to pray for God's grace and mercy upon them.  I hope I'm being coherent! :)

Tks everyone for sharing your personal 'missional' stories.  Looks like we've finally thrown off the yoke of slavery!  Whom the Son sets free is free indeed!  :)
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indianabob

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Re: WHY THE MISSIONAL MOVEMENT WILL FAIL
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2013, 04:01:37 AM »

Dear friend Loretta,
God has a plan, which is laid out in the O. T. and it is our job to learn about it and patiently wait while God carries it out. The New Testament and especially the letters of Paul add to the O. T. facts that had not been previously shared with anyone, not even the 12 apostles. So it is our privilege and responsibility to explore those mysteries or spiritual secrets in order to prepare ourselves for the work to come.
Of course it is not our work but rather the work of God in us, so we proceed at the pace that God allows. What a tremendous opportunity we have been given.

Indiana Bob
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: WHY THE MISSIONAL MOVEMENT WILL FAIL
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2013, 05:15:43 AM »

Is the call to repent and believe the gospel for the church or the world?  Are we first chosen by God, then subjected to judgment and finally called to repent and believe the gospel.  Or are we chosen after we repent and believe the gospel?  Clearly, the latter is the bedrock of current missional movements.  If it is the former, then we know that those under judgment are chosen of God and we must pray that they will repent and believe the gospel.  We don't really bother about the rest of the world, except maybe to pray for God's grace and mercy upon them.  I hope I'm being coherent! :)


Read the 17th Chapter of Acts, Paul's 'sermon' to the "world".  In it, he says that "...but now (God) commandeth all men every where to repent:"  However, pay attention to what he is delivering the message that ALL MEN repent FROM and TO.  The church is no less guilty of the 'ignorance' he mentions than the world is, and even less 'without excuse' because they have been 'given much'.

In the first chapters of the Gospel according to John, John writes:

Joh 1:9  He was the true Light; He enlightens every man coming into the world.
Joh 1:10  He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, yet the world did not know Him.
Joh 1:11  He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
Joh 1:12  But as many as received Him, to them He gave authority to become children of God, to the ones believing into His name,
Joh 1:13  who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God.

That's everybody in your list...the world at large, the church and His church.  It's not that we shouldn't bother about the rest of the world.  We have a ministry to them.  And we don't know who God is choosing, as we don't do the choosing.  He does.  I find it compelling to note that at the end of Paul's sermon, some scoffed, and some said "we'll hear more of this" and Paul left them.  But some believed and stuck with him.  It's another picture of this world, the church (called) and His church (chosen).

Ray said he is not aware of anybody who has come directly out of the world and into the deeper things of God without having come through the church to be corrupted in some manner.  Many are called...few are chosen.  That's the way He does things.     



   
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

loretta

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Re: WHY THE MISSIONAL MOVEMENT WILL FAIL
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2013, 12:58:09 AM »

Acts 17.  Repent and turn from idol/idle worship to the Living God ?  Not repent from our sins as the church today preaches?

Quote
Ray said he is not aware of anybody who has come directly out of the world and into the deeper things of God without having come through the church to be corrupted in some manner.  Many are called...few are chosen.  That's the way He does things.     


Definitely true.  It was foreshadowed in the age of Israel, with the people being taken into captivity to Babylon and only a few choosing to return.  Except, perhaps that we, the elect, don't really choose, but are chosen. :)

Tks again, Dave.  I'm still learning.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2013, 01:02:33 AM by loretta »
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: WHY THE MISSIONAL MOVEMENT WILL FAIL
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2013, 01:50:27 AM »

Loretta, I believe there are different 'types' of repentance taught in different portions of scripture.  You asked about the 'world', and as best as I have been able to find (and I've wondered the same thing as a crusty old "evangelical" since my beginnings at BT) this was the message of repentance that Paul preached to 'the world'. 

As I've looked at the New Testament, maybe the most common 'commandment' is 'don't be deceived'.  That's also repentance.  We read the letters of the Apostles and James and see other areas where we might need to change our ways or 'repent'.  Another 'type' of repentance would be 'love your enemies' or to have an 'unfeigned love for the brethren' or learning that the Lord loves a cheerful giver.  There are more like this.  This requires a change of heart, and 'changing hearts' is not something we can simply will to do.  I'm betting that you are experiencing this 'change of heart' at least to some degree that you can see growing in you since you've come to believe the truly good news.  Jesus saves and this will continue if you don't turn back.

God be with you every step of the way as Jesus continues to save you and continues to Create you in His image.  He's not finished with any of us.   
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Patric

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Re: WHY THE MISSIONAL MOVEMENT WILL FAIL
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2013, 05:28:59 AM »

Definition of METANOIA
: a transformative change of heart; especially : a spiritual conversion
Origin of METANOIA
Greek, from metanoiein to change one's mind, repent, from meta- + noein to think, from nous mind
First Known Use: 1577

not quite from the days of Christ but it gives me a better definition of repentance. Mostly I find I go kicking and screaming in repentance!
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loretta

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Re: WHY THE MISSIONAL MOVEMENT WILL FAIL
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2013, 12:32:35 PM »

I guess when we REPENT from our idol/idle worship we end up repenting of all our ways.  Ofcourse in between there is the
Quote
kicking and screaming
kind of repentance or judgement we  learnt about here at BT.

Yes, there is a change of heart since coming to BT.  I'm less of a fundamental, less cock sure of my calling, less arrogant, more graceful, more compassionate, more willing to let God be God. Metanoia.

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ Phil 1:6

tks Dave and Patric.
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