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Author Topic: King David  (Read 4726 times)

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microlink

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King David
« on: July 04, 2013, 08:41:39 PM »

I know , without exception, that God's word does not contradict.

I have a question that I hope someone can help me with. Ray has said that King David will not be in the first resurrection. This has shocked many people. I think he based this on the fact that David died in an attitude of hatred toward his enemies as scripture shows in 1 Kings 2:6-9 (below). This conclusion seems very plausible and believable that David will not be in the first resurrection.

However in Ezek 34 and 37 and in Hosea 2 we read about King David in the Kingdom. As well we find that in Acts 13 that David was considered to be a man after God's own heart (scripture KJV also shown below). How is this to be figured out? Did Ray explain this somewhere because I have not found it on the web site.

1Ki 2:6  Do therefore according to thy wisdom, and let not his hoar head go down to the grave in peace.
1Ki 2:7  But shew kindness unto the sons of Barzillai the Gileadite, and let them be of those that eat at thy table: for so they came to me when I fled because of Absalom thy brother.
1Ki 2:8  And, behold, thou hast with thee Shimei the son of Gera, a Benjamite of Bahurim, which cursed me with a grievous curse in the day when I went to Mahanaim: but he came down to meet me at Jordan, and I sware to him by the LORD, saying, I will not put thee to death with the sword.
1Ki 2:9  Now therefore hold him not guiltless: for thou art a wise man, and knowest what thou oughtest to do unto him; but his hoar head bring thou down to the grave with blood.
1Ki 2:10  So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.

Eze_34:24  And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it.
Eze_37:24  And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
Eze_37:25  And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

Hos_3:5  Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.

Act_13:22  And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

Can anyone discuss this?
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3 John 4 - I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.

Dave in Tenn

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Re: King David
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2013, 12:25:50 AM »

is the question answered in the next verse?

Act 13:23  Of the seed of this one (David), according to promise, God raised up to Israel a Savior, Jesus;

Act 13:24  John going before to proclaim before the face of His entrance a baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.
Act 13:25  And as John fulfilled the course, he said, Whom do you suppose me to be? I am not He, but, behold, "He comes after me, of whom I am not worthy to loosen the sandal of His feet." (John 1:27)

Yet:  Mat 11:11  Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

John didn't end his life full of hate for his enemies, yet there he is in comparison to the least in the Kingdom.  NOT RISEN A GREATER among all that are born of women, yet the least in the Kingdom is greater than he.  How can the least be greater if John is there?  The least could be equal, he could be the least...but the least cannot be greater if he is included in the equation.

Can I ask a question in return?  Why is it such a shock (or disappointment?) that David and John will not be in the kingdom?  Is the "kingdom" some universalist 1:1 'replacement' for the christian notion of heaven?  Is the Lake of Fire a universalist 1:1 replacement of the christian notion of hell?  Just trying to get at the root of the 'problem'/shock.  There is an order to these things.  The first shall be last, and the last first.
 
 
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

microlink

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Re: King David
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2013, 01:00:30 AM »

Thanks Dave,
Yes, some food for thought for sure. Still does not address Ezek and Hosea. David is not mentioned in the faith chapter in Hebrews from what I recall. Raises the question also about those in the faith chapter as to whether they will be in the first resurrection. I will meditate on this some more and discuss further. thanks again!
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microlink

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Re: King David
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2013, 11:45:42 AM »

Thanks greatly John and Dave. You guys have shed new light for me on some of those perplexing questions. Much different than what I learn't in WCG. This just prompts me to dig deeper in the spiritual meaning of the Holy Scriptures and realize that ALL is of Christ.

Eph_1:10  That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him.

Appreciated!!
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3 John 4 - I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.

loretta

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Re: King David
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2013, 03:33:28 PM »

Not John the Baptist too!  :)  And after being beheaded too...  What disqualified him?  that he doubted that Jesus was the One?  My self confidence has really taken a beating!!  I don't think I qualify to judge the Patriarchs, not in a thousand years

I'm not ready to preach this one, they'll laugh me out of town!  But I want to learn the truth.  Shall really appreciate some more teaching and some more links to Ray's papers. tks
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Kat

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Re: King David
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2013, 05:24:16 PM »


Hi loretta,

Quote
I don't think I qualify to judge the Patriarchs, not in a thousand years

I'm not ready to preach this one, they'll laugh me out of town!

Well with the Spirit indwelling Loretta, it would not really be you or your wisdom judging the world, but God in and through you.

Php 2:12  Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
v. 13  for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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loretta

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Re: King David
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2013, 05:17:57 AM »

tks John and Kat, for the wisdom and links to further teaching.

I was studying Hebrews 11 last night and meditating on verse 39-40.  It was as if I was reading them for the first time! :)

Quote
Well with the Spirit indwelling Loretta, it would not really be you or your wisdom judging the world, but God in and through you.


Amen. God, will be ALL in ALL

love
« Last Edit: July 09, 2013, 05:26:26 AM by loretta »
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indianabob

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Re: King David
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2013, 02:16:01 PM »

Hi Loretta,

Please try to view it in this manner. God is seeking a few very little people, not many great.
Of course God will humble us even below our own estimate of our own importance, but God is still drawing to Himself people who's accomplishments are very few and very small as the world sees great accomplishment.

When we are appointed to positions of service with great authority so that we can help people, just as Lord Jesus will be doing, people will say of us "what a great miracle our God has done, to make so much out of so little".

People who have known us all of our lives, our friends, our family will be amazed and astounded at what God has accomplished. They will find it very hard to believe that we have been appointed to such high office.

On the other hand, we will be able to tell them very candidly and truthfully that they should have hope and courage in the knowledge that God can do a similar work in them and in their lives and that the work that God does in their lives will continue for the ages to come in their immortality.

As the saying goes, God will make a beautiful silk purse out of a pig's ear.

So be at peace with yourself. stand still and see what God can do.

Exodus 14:13–And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which he will shew to you to day: for the Egyptians whom ye have seen to day, ye shall see them again no more for ever.
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loretta

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Re: King David
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2013, 03:00:59 PM »

Thank you Indianabob.

Quote
So be at peace with yourself. stand still and see what God can do.

:)
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gerard_dsouza

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Re: King David
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2013, 07:56:51 PM »

Hi All,
Interesting discussion.

On the topic of second resurrection. I heard Ray mention something in his audio message that the below quote is not in the manuscripts.

Quote
Rev 20: 5  and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished; this [is] the first rising again. (YLT)

Does this infer that the second resurrection will take place inside the 1000 year reign? So all the earth will come to the knowledge of the Lord and obedience to the Lord 100% within this set time frame of 1000 years.

And the 1000 year reign is a symbolic period of time and could be 49000 year since Adam - a jubilee of 1000 years as Creation Jubilee to free all mankind or a longer period)? The 1000 is not literal?

So will the overcomers will probably need to undergo some training and maturing, before they can serve the people in the second resurrection.  We in this life are far from being complete, so we need to be made complete and then we can help others to be made complete (perfect). What do you think?

There must be a order in the resurrection and probably the order is not all at once in the second resurrection? Any opinions?
Quote
As scripture says: 1Cor 15: 23;  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

So also in the first resurrection, there must be a order? Any opinions.

Finally all after the 1000 symbolic year reign will be presented to Jesus as a Bride. So it means we and all others are still in preparation?







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Kat

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Re: King David
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2013, 09:43:26 PM »


Hi Gerry,

I think this below is what you were speaking of from the conference "How We Got The Bible.'

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5815.20.html ----

Believe me most people that teach and write books on these prophecies, don’t have a clue. Not only do they not have the answers, they don’t even know what the problems are.   
But these verses here;

Rev 20:4  …And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
v. 5  But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Both of these verses can not be true, there is a problem here. I racked my brain, in my spare time, but I kept it in the back of my mind for a long time. There is a problem, that won’t work and I can’t make it work. It doesn’t fit, there is no way to make this thing fit. Then some months ago, now I know why it, “but the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished” won’t fit. It’s not Scripture! Tischendorf has it right there.

Rev. 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished...

It’s not in the Sinaiticus. So I said, okay now we’re moving again. We’re a little closer to the Truth.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

So yes since that part of verse 5 should not be there, we can understand that the 1000 yrs is the reign of Christ on the earth. Here is another part of that same conference where Ray mentioned that.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
this whole book of Revelation is that testimony of Jesus Christ and has everything to do with His coming in us and coming back to the world to use us to convert all the nations.

Rev 5:10  And You made us kings and priests to our God, and we will reign over the earth.

We will be kings and priests and we will reign with Him and it says on the earth for 1000 years.

Rev 20:4  …And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But it is not a 1000 years, that’s a symbol for something.  I think I know what that something is now.  I know when the 1000 years ends.  But that is another subject for another time. 

---------------------------------------------

Quote
So will the overcomers will probably need to undergo some training and maturing, before they can serve the people in the second resurrection.  We in this life are far from being complete, so we need to be made complete and then we can help others to be made complete (perfect). What do you think?

Those elect are being prepared now in this life to be resurrected at the first resurrection. No we are not going to reach perfection while we are still in this carnal flesh body, and even Paul knew he would not reach perfection in this life.

Php 3:12  Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.

But we are being made into HIS image, readied for the adoption/born into the family of God. We are coming to 'know' God and to recognize that this carnal flesh has nothing good in it. We are dying to the flesh, decrease, so He can increase (John 3:30). He is working in us now, so He can bring us in perfect unity, ONE, with the Spirit of God.

1Co 6:17  But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

Php 3:21  who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

1Co 15:42  So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.
v. 43  It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
v. 44  It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Now as Paul said this is not just a change from a body of flesh to a spiritual body, but those in the first resurrection will be changed to "incorruption - glory - power." We will become one with God.

John 17:20  "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
v. 21  that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
v. 22  And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
v. 23  I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

Being brought into His image, to become one with God is where we will obtain the power and glory, it is not our own power or glory, but God's. That is the "fullness of Christ," that is when we will become perfect as He is perfect.

Eph 4:13  till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

Christ said He did not seek to do things for Himself, but He could only do the will of the Father.

John 5:30  I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

John 8:28  Then Jesus said to them, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things.
v. 29  And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him."

Christ could obey the Father perfectly because He had the Holy "Spirit without measure" and so will we if we are in the first resurrection.

John 3:34  For He whom God has sent utters the words of God, for He gives the Spirit without measure.

That's how I see that we will serve with Christ as kings and priests, not by anything we have, but by the oneness/unity of God in us, the indwelling of the Spirit without measure. Not by our own strength, power or wisdom, but by the power and glory of God.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 12:54:28 AM by Kat »
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gerard_dsouza

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Re: King David
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2013, 12:40:16 AM »

Thanks Kat. This is very useful information on the manuscripts. I never knew this before.
___________

Quote
Rev 20:2  And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him a thousand years.
v. 3  And he cast him into the bottomless pit (abyss), and shut him up and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years should be fulfilled. And after that he must be loosed a little season.

That verse gives me a problem, it would take a long time to explain why. Believe me most people that teach and write books on these prophecies, don’t have a clue. Not only do they not have the answers, they don’t even know what the problems are.   


This quote from Ray drew my attention. I too find the verses Rev 20: 2 and 3 gives me some questions.
Why is he bound for the thousand years?
Is he not required to be more aggressive and to help others and train them to be overcomers?
Why is he released for a little season after the 1000 years?
This makes no sense to me.
Anyone knows what was Ray observation on this?

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indianabob

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Re: King David
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2013, 01:05:13 AM »

Hi Gerry,

It would seem that the folks living into and born into the government of God during the Millennium period would not have been tested by being exposed to Satan the accuser who challenges their perhaps easily held belief and trust in God.

Note: even our Lord Jesus was tested in the wilderness for many days and then offered premature rule of the earth by Satan. So then if these new folks are going to be granted immortality then it would seem that they should finish their experience of trusting God for protection from Satan.

Satan came to tempt Jesus after Christ had fasted forty days and forty nights and was hungry.

“And when the tempter came to Him, He said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.”  Matt 4:3

Jesus replied:

“Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.”  Matt 4:4 (a quote from Deut 8:3)

In quoting from Deut 8, Jesus was referring back to Israel’s wilderness experience
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gerard_dsouza

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Re: King David
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2013, 01:55:53 AM »

Hi Indiianabob,
I don't have answers to this.
REV 20: 2 AND 3 shows Satan bound and in the bottomless pit. My puzzle to go figure, is why is Satan needed to be bound for 1000 years, is he not needed?

And after the 1000 years: this is what happens and why

Quote
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

1) Notice that he is thrown into a lake of burning sulphur in Rev 20: 10, why not bottomless pit again? What is he doing in a lake of burning sulphur where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. And what does tormented day and night for ever and ever mean?
2) While the others at the Great white throne judgement (second resurrection) are thrown into the lake of fire. It would make no sense to me if this happened after the 1000 years. Since there is no mention that this happens after the 1000 years, this could occur during the 1000 years at some point after the first resurrection.


Quote
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
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Kat

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Re: King David
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2013, 02:31:06 AM »


This age is for the "experience of evil" (Ecc. 1:13) as the Concordant has it, this dark backdrop which we are now developing for a knowledge of good and (mostly it seems) evil. Satan has a prominent part in this age influencing and tempting us to do evil.

Rev 12:9  So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world;

Mark 4:15  And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts.
 
1Cor 7:5  Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

Satan feasts on our carnality, as we are too weak to resist the sins/lust of this flesh and by this we are devoured because of the lusts of the flesh.

1Peter 5:8  Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

So when Christ returns it will be as Bob was saying, Satan will not be here to tempt people and it will be a time of peace and as Ray liked to quote "the world will learn righteousness" (Isa 26:9). He will return to rule with great power and there will be no opposition from an adversary or anything else. No, there is not a struggle going on now between God and Satan and there will not be then, Satan was created for a purpose, that is being accomplished in this age. Then he will be removed, he obviously will not be around to interfere while God is judging this world.

Rev 21:3  And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them as their God.
v. 4  He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away."
v. 5  And he who was seated on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." Also he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."

During the next age Christ will rule supreme and He and the elect will bring about dramatic changes in this world, there will be no more pain and suffering, therefore no violence. However it is that Christ will rule, His authority will be completely over all, and the world will learn righteousness through judgment.

Isa 26:9  With my soul I have desired You in the night,
       Yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early;
       For when Your judgments are in the earth,
       The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Rev 20:7  Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison.

Then Satan will be released after that age is completed, obviously there is yet work for Satan after the 1000 yrs are finished. Ray did not get around to teaching on whatever Satan does at that point, but after Satan has accomplished whatever God intends, then he will also have his part in the lake of fire.

Rev 20:10  The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever (unto the ages of ages).

The lake of fire will be God's judgment on Satan just like it will be on the world that will also be cast into it.

Rev 20:13  The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
v. 14  Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
v. 15  And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

I tend to think the world is only in the beginning of the stages of being made into His image, there is a lot yet to be accomplished and God in His wisdom doesn't seem to want to rush all this.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 01:43:42 AM by Kat »
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indianabob

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Re: King David
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2013, 01:00:57 PM »

Thanks Kat,
Well said and helpful.
Indiana Bob
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gerard_dsouza

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Re: King David
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2013, 01:17:00 PM »

Thanks Kat. This is good. Makes sense.

So then the period could also be a literal 1000 years.

Do you think the second resurrection takes place after the 1000 years or before if we remove verse 5 from scripture?

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Kat

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Re: King David
« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2013, 02:31:10 PM »


Hi Gerry,

Quote
So then the period could also be a literal 1000 years.

The 1000 yrs is a symbolic number, just like when God said all cattle are His on a 1000 hills. Certainly He did not mean just a 1000 hills.

Psa 50:10  For every beast of the forest is mine, the cattle on a thousand hills.

Quote
Do you think the second resurrection takes place after the 1000 years or before if we remove verse 5 from scripture?

Rev 20:4  Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
v. 5  The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.
v. 6  Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with Him for a thousand years.

In verse 4 the elect "reign with Christ for 1000 yrs." Now next it does go on to sum it up and to speaks of the end of the 1000 yrs ad the release of Satan and then his eventual being cast into the lake of fire. But this whole chapter does not go in chronological order, because down in verse 12 we go back to the resurrection of "the dead" from the greatest to the smallest stand before the throne of Christ and that indicates ALL the dead to me.

Rev 20:11  Then I saw a great white throne and Him who was seated on it. From His presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
v. 12  And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
v. 13  And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
v. 14  Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
v. 15  And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

So you can see in verse 15 that those that are not in the Book of Life-Jesus Christ, therefore not in the first resurrection to life, are thrown into the lake of fire to be judged, purged and cleansed of their wickedness. The judgment in the lake of fire is the reign of Christ and the elect for everyone not in the Book of Life. You can also see the order/sequence of resurrection is to bring the just to life and the unjust to condemnation when Christ returns.

Act 24:15  I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

John 5:28  Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice  29 and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Also Matt 25 shows at the resurrection "ALL the nations will be gathered before Him."

Mat 25:31  "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32  All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
33  And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
34  Then the King will say to those on His right hand, "Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Mat 25:41  "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, "Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting (eonian) fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

The only place that I can find any indication that the dead do not raise until after the 1000 yrs is the spurious part of Rev. 20:5. All the other Scripture seem to point to the first resurrection of the elect to join Christ, followed by the resurrection of the rest of the dead, that begins the reign of Christ and the elect to rule the whole world.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 01:02:47 AM by Kat »
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gerard_dsouza

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Re: King David
« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2013, 03:58:11 PM »

Thanks Kat. That makes more sense than what others talk about when they include the verse 5 first part of Rev 20.

In your understanding of Ray teaching. I know he talks about all who are truly saved will be in the first resurrection. The called and chosen.

What about the called who were not chosen, can they be those whose name is written in the book of life and they go through the lake of fire in a milder form of judgement as compared to others. Any opinions on that.

« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 04:38:34 PM by Gerry from Toronto »
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: King David
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2013, 05:15:58 PM »


Hi Gerry,

This world holds a wide variety of personalities and the circumstances of each life gives even more diversity and there is nothing hidden from Him.

Heb 4:13  And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

Though all are deceived and there is no real goodness in any of us, He know each of our lives exactly as we truly are. Most of the Human race do not 'know' Jesus Christ, OT and NT times. Those in the OT never knew of Jesus Christ, because before He lived on earth in the flesh there was no Jesus, just the Son of God. So all those that came before Christ lived, though some died in faith, must wait for the second resurrection. Heb 11 shows many from the OT that died in faith, but will not be in the first resurrection. They must wait for Christ to return and appear to them and then through the elect be made/brought to perfection.

Heb 11:39  And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise,
v. 40  God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

Now in the NT times there are no doubt people of faith that are not of the elect, yes they are worldly and carnal, but not all are devious and wicked, and all will give account for whatever they are.

1Cor 3:13  each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
v. 14  If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
v. 15  If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
 
So there could be rewards for some, but all will have to go through the fire of judgement, the patriarchs of old, the prophets and even John the Baptist as well. Though I just cannot imagine that those just mentioned will receive serious punishment, correction yes and they do need to be taught about the sacrifice of Christ. They and any who did not have the Spirit indwelling will be judged and purged of their carnality, precisely down to the most minute degree for what each individual needs and deserves.

And there will also be babies and children raised up, they will not be punished, but raised and guided towards righteousness. I do believe that God's judgments will be just for everybody, setting right every injustices that any person has endured. All will be dealt with individually, with firmness or gentleness just as they need or deserve, "few stripes... many stripes" (Luke 12:47-48).

Of course there will be hardened criminals and people so wicked it's hard to imagine, these will be raised up and will be shown a harsh God of wrath to turn them from their evil and vile nature. Even there He most certainly will use different methods that best suit the differing personalities.

I guess it's impossible to figure the specifics, as the judgments will be as diverse as the personalities are different. But I hope you understand what I'm trying to get across.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 01:41:06 AM by Kat »
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